Playing multiple different tempos at the same time with different limbs

T

T-1000

Senior Member
Surely in order to practice independance the best thing to do is get two metronomes, set one to 120bpm, and the other to 117bpm and play quarter notes at 120bpm with the left hand, quarter notes at 117bpm with the right hand.

In order to increase the difficulty you could get two more metronomes, and at the same time you could play quarter notes at 114bpm with the left foot and quarter notes at 111bpm with the left foot.

This is just an example, and you can use whatever tempos you want, but obviously, the tempos should not align in any common way, such as playing quarter notes at 120bpm with the left hand, and quarter notes at 60bpm with the right hand.

Can anyone do this, and does anyone practice like this.

Is it feasible to be able to do this?
 
T-1000 said:
Surely in order to practice independance the best thing to do is get two metronomes, set one to 120bpm, and the other to 117bpm and play quarter notes at 120bpm with the left hand, quarter notes at 117bpm with the right hand.

In order to increase the difficulty you could get two more metronomes, and at the same time you could play quarter notes at 114bpm with the left foot and quarter notes at 111bpm with the left foot.

This is just an example, and you can use whatever tempos you want, but obviously, the tempos should not align in any common way, such as playing quarter notes at 120bpm with the left hand, and quarter notes at 60bpm with the right hand.

Can anyone do this, and does anyone practice like this.

Is it feasible to be able to do this?
Click to expand...

Honestly, I don't think this is very useful at all. There are an enormous number of other independence exercises that would be more important to practice first.
 
Yes, but would any be as challenging as this?

In fact, I think the difficulty would also be increased if the tempos were farther apart from each other, and you could play tuplets and add a speed element to the workout as well;

RH: 257bpm (play quarter notes)
LH: 111bpm (play quarter note triplets)
RF: 58bpm (play quarter note quintuplets)
LF: 184bpm (play quarter notes)
 
T-1000 said:
Yes, but would any be as challenging as this?

In fact, I think the difficulty would also be increased if the tempos were farther apart from each other, and you could play tuplets and add a speed element to the workout as well;

RH: 257bpm (play quarter notes)
LH: 111bpm (play quarter note triplets)
RF: 58bpm (play quarter note quintuplets)
LF: 184bpm (play quarter notes)
Click to expand...

Just because they would be challenging doesn't necessarily mean it would be useful! What specifically would you be developing? You would be learning the ability to play two unrelated tempos at the same time, something that just sounds terrible in almost every situation, haha.

I look at it this way, once you can comfortably play through everything in the New Breed, Gavin Harrison's stuff, Lang's Creative Coordination, Marco Minneman's DVDs, etc., THEN you could start with this exercise. All of that other stuff is actually useful inside of a song, haha.
 
T-1000 said:
Yes, but would any be as challenging as this?

In fact, I think the difficulty would also be increased if the tempos were farther apart from each other, and you could play tuplets and add a speed element to the workout as well;

RH: 257bpm (play quarter notes)
LH: 111bpm (play quarter note triplets)
RF: 58bpm (play quarter note quintuplets)
LF: 184bpm (play quarter notes)
Click to expand...

You should work this up and get going on it.
It can be your 'thing'.

Personally, I can't see much point in doing it.
As Luke said there are many, many other things to be getting on with first.
 
Yes, but just as if you can play at extreme speeds, your technique is refinined so playing at any speed is easier, if your independance is refined to such an extent by this exercise, you should find conventional independance exercises trivial
 
To be fair, I will say that this would have massive benefits for your abilities of concentration and focus, similar to such exercises as playing along with a very slow click, like 10bpm. I'm not saying there would be no benefit, and I'll actually probably try it out, its a neat idea! I just wouldn't spend much time with it, haha.
 
T-1000 said:
Yes, but just as if you can play at extreme speeds, your technique is refinined so playing at any speed is easier, if your independance is refined to such an extent by this exercise, you should find conventional independance exercises trivial
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with you, but you will find out for yourself if you develop it on your own. I believe this will not make playing any other independence exercises particularly easier.
 
It depends on what you mean by "best", I guess. Even if this were an achievable skill, there's virtually no musical current application for it. The illusion of independence in drumming is the result of coordination, which is a very different thing. It's 100% dependent on finding what the 2+ parts have in common, which renders them playable by a single cat controlling four limbs.best
 
Are you serious? I don't think I could even do this. I have a hard enough time getting my limbs to agree on one tempo, let alone 2.

Plus, even if it was played accurately, I think it would sound like a cacophony. It sounds like it would be less than useless musically, but wow what a killer independence test.

Let's get Vinnie to try it, he can play everything!

Hey Vinnie!
 
toddbishop said:
It depends on what you mean by "best", I guess. Even if this were an achievable skill, there's virtually no musical current application for it. The illusion of independence in drumming is the result of coordination, which is a very different thing. It's 100% dependent on finding what the 2+ parts have in common, which renders them playable by a single cat controlling four limbs.best
Click to expand...

Yes, I didn't really address that, but "independence" (and coordination) are the result of interdependence, an understanding of how two rhythms line up in terms of a single subdivision.
 
T-1000 said:
...if your independance is refined to such an extent by this exercise, you should find conventional independance exercises trivial
Click to expand...

No, because the kind of asynchronous thing you're suggesting would be the result of an entirely different process from normal musical coordination. It would be like practicing your tango by running a marathon backwards on your hands.
 
I'm still not 100% convinced by the "by practicing hard things, these other easier things become really easy" argument.

Essentially, it's not like your hands and feet know the difference between what is musically common and what isn't - which is essentially what we mean when we say "easy" and "difficult". "Easy" and "difficult" in musical terms is a culturally determined thing. To your nervous system, it's a series of movements, it doesn't know you're playing something rhythmically "hard" (unfamiliar and uncommon). Not to be funny, but I hear kids play things that sound like people playing in two different tempos all the time...

So, why not practice independence stuff which is musically applicable or that has, at the very least, reference to cultural context. Check out Antonio Sanchez. That guy is playing claves in two different meters, but the trick is that the meters are related in a musical way. There's a context, and it's the context that makes it relevant to a listener - i.e. musically relevant.

Also, I've been thinking a lot about what Hal Galper says about only being able to play what you hear (someone posted a video of him talking about this again recently). So, if you're training your ears to "hear" two tempos at once there's no guarantee that when you go to play something else that you're going to be able to hear that and play it.

I think if you put on two metronomes and practice hearing the relationship of those two sounds crossing in and out of phase, you'll be able to play that with some work. But even you admit that this isn't pragmatic. Why not spend time learning to hear the stuff you really want to play in the end?
 
Boomka said:
I'm still not 100% convinced by the "by practicing hard things, these other easier things become really easy" argument.

Essentially, it's not like your hands and feet know the difference between what is musically common and what isn't - which is essentially what we mean when we say "easy" and "difficult". "Easy" and "difficult" in musical terms is a culturally determined thing. To your nervous system, it's a series of movements, it doesn't know you're playing something rhythmically "hard" (unfamiliar and uncommon). Not to be funny, but I hear kids play things that sound like people playing in two different tempos all the time...

So, why not practice independence stuff which is musically applicable or that has, at the very least, reference to cultural context. Check out Antonio Sanchez. That guy is playing claves in two different meters, but the trick is that the meters are related in a musical way. There's a context, and it's the context that makes it relevant to a listener - i.e. musically relevant.

Also, I've been thinking a lot about what Hal Galper says about only being able to play what you hear (someone posted a video of him talking about this again recently). So, if you're training your ears to "hear" two tempos at once there's no guarantee that when you go to play something else (more common) that you're going to be able to hear that and play it.

I think if you put on two metronomes and practice hearing the relationship of those two sounds crossing in and out of phase, you'll be able to play that. But even you admit that this isn't pragmatic. Why not spend time learning to hear the stuff you really want to play in the end?
Click to expand...

Good post Boomka! I agree with you 100%.
 
T-1000 said:
Surely in order to practice independance the best thing to do is get two metronomes, set one to 120bpm, and the other to 117bpm and play quarter notes at 120bpm with the left hand, quarter notes at 117bpm with the right hand.

In order to increase the difficulty you could get two more metronomes, and at the same time you could play quarter notes at 114bpm with the left foot and quarter notes at 111bpm with the left foot.

This is just an example, and you can use whatever tempos you want, but obviously, the tempos should not align in any common way, such as playing quarter notes at 120bpm with the left hand, and quarter notes at 60bpm with the right hand.

Can anyone do this, and does anyone practice like this.

Is it feasible to be able to do this?
Click to expand...


this is completely useless

to gain independence you want to practice it in a musical and useful context

so instead of this exercise you describe I would recommend;

- most latin rhythms, grab an afro cuban book and go to town
- advanced jazz exercises
- The New Breed by Gary Chester
- metric modulation, go grab a Gavin Harrison book
- grab the book "snare drum technique; essential exercises for daily practice" by Pablo Rieppi...on pg 22 the Polyrhythms start, throw those on all your limbs for an extreme challenge

all of these would be musically useful and the last 2 examples would be closest to the exercise you describe but would actually be useful in a musical situation

take the idea of playing in different tempos and change it to different subdivisions so it actually makes sense and can sound like you are at different tempos but it is only an illusion
 
You need to stop thinking of the concept of limb independence as purely independence. And start thinking of it as coordination and interdependence. The best independence exercises emphasize polyrhythms and syncopation between limbs. You are training your limbs how to be dependent on other limbs for tempo, while those other limbs are independent from the syncopation and polyrhythms happening elsewhere. Independence exercises should focus on limbs working together.

The exercise you proposed is good for pure limb independence. However, mastering your exercise (if that's even possible) would not help your drumming in any musical context.
 
Boomka said:
I'm still not 100% convinced by the "by practicing hard things, these other easier things become really easy" argument.

Essentially, it's not like your hands and feet know the difference between what is musically common and what isn't - which is essentially what we mean when we say "easy" and "difficult". "Easy" and "difficult" in musical terms is a culturally determined thing. To your nervous system, it's a series of movements, it doesn't know you're playing something rhythmically "hard" (unfamiliar and uncommon). Not to be funny, but I hear kids play things that sound like people playing in two different tempos all the time...

So, why not practice independence stuff which is musically applicable or that has, at the very least, reference to cultural context. Check out Antonio Sanchez. That guy is playing claves in two different meters, but the trick is that the meters are related in a musical way. There's a context, and it's the context that makes it relevant to a listener - i.e. musically relevant.

Also, I've been thinking a lot about what Hal Galper says about only being able to play what you hear (someone posted a video of him talking about this again recently). So, if you're training your ears to "hear" two tempos at once there's no guarantee that when you go to play something else that you're going to be able to hear that and play it.

I think if you put on two metronomes and practice hearing the relationship of those two sounds crossing in and out of phase, you'll be able to play that with some work. But even you admit that this isn't pragmatic. Why not spend time learning to hear the stuff you really want to play in the end?
Click to expand...

The ONLY exercises that I think disagree with you are Thomas Lang's Coordination exercises.

Most of them are playing an ostinato with a foot and playing hand patterns on top. I have found those helpful.
 
Wow what a terrible idea, there is no musically applicable situation for that. Stop trying to be a better "drummer" and become a better musician. Just do polyrhythms its the same thing just combining the useful divisions instead of training yourself to play wrong.
 
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