Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores.

.



I don't think anyone is crying about GC, just pointing out some of GC's issues that they (GC) also lament about.

You're right of course Poor choice of word.

The idea that GC has "the best price" is just silly
.

Not disagreeing but how do you explain and marry that idea to all the arguments and comments regarding GC putting all the Mom+Pops out of business? If M+P's have better service, better educated staff, better return policies and better selection then why would anyone not buy from them and buy at GC instead?

And I don't know which other musicians have put independent stores out of business, but but certainly hasn't been me. I make a number of trips to my local GC because of proximity, and visit Sam Ash for the same reason. But I make an equal or greater amount of trips to various other small stores and drum shops, where I make more frequent purchases because they have a better selection and typically, better prices.

As stated in my previous post, I am not pointing my finger at any individual.
My point is that GC cannot prosper unless they have an abundance of customers.People chose to shop there rather then at the local shop. The lack of customers, the choice of these customers is what closes down the M+P's
BTW, I have an excellent grasp on the difference between price and value, and I never automatically equate them. I always opt for the best value.

I do, as well, and this is how real salespeople sell. Again, I was not pointing individual fingers. Sorry if you took it that way.

It pains me to see the small shops fail, and GC not pick up the slack in the process (which right now is a real financial burden.) Neither is good for the musician.

I agree. The time is right for GC to step up their game.

Steve
 
i spent a lot of money at gc becuase as stated IT WAS THE ONLY STORE LEFT. hard for me to spend my money at my friends store when he's already out of business isn't it?

yeah some friend i was, i was the last guy out his door at closing time the last day he was open, i sat there for an hour watching him with his head in his hands asking what he was gonna do now with no source of income and having to pay off all the debt from the store.

yeah i take it a little personal...
 
Bermuda, I have had this debate with the manager of the local George's Music Store numerous times...I'd love to be able to go in there and get a head I need or even to purchase a decent cymbal now and then but they only stock what I would consider beginner drum items, etc. I have asked the manager why they don't carry anything an experienced drummer would want and his reply is always, "they don't come in here", MY response is always "because we know you don't carry anything we want"...

I'm only 30 minutes outside of Philadelphia but to find a real drum shop I have to drive at least an hour and 1/2 to Harrisburg to go to Dale's Drum Shop, probably more drum items in that one store than the other stores in my area combined...

Don't know what the answer is...

I love Dale's drums. they are right up the street from me. I think they have the business model that all stores should follow. For one the store is owned by one of Buddy Rich's former drum techs and all the way down you have people who love drums. Some of them even give lessons.

I don't want to make this out to be an advertisement for them but they seriously got things down and have many repeat customers. GC is right up the rode, I seriously don't know how they even have a drum section.
 
An excellent idea, and they could even co-op with other non-competing companies (such as Sabian, Vic Firth, etc.)

The problem is of course, where do they set up such a showroom? How many would they have to set-up to accommodate enough people to make it worthwhile?

This is why there is a network of dealers, so that each company doesn't have to have a dedicated presence in every major market.

But I like the concept, and artists in the area could stop in and do demos, clinics, talk about the product. I'd be on board if Ludwig, Sabian, Evans or Vic Firth did that here in L.A.

Bermuda

This has been done in other industries: Dell computers, Shaw flooring and Sears.
I don't know if Dell still operates this way, Shaw (the largest flooring manufacture in the USA) failed miserably and Sears thrives. I am not convinced this model would work for instruments. A brand specific store front is costly and would compete with it's bread and butter dealers. Shaw tried it nation wide. We threw them out because it did not make good business sense to compete with a supplier.
 
Not disagreeing but how do you explain and marry that idea to all the arguments and comments regarding GC putting all the Mom+Pops out of business? If M+P's have better service, better educated staff, better return policies and better selection then why would anyone not buy from them and buy at GC instead?

People evidently think GC has the best prices. they assume it. Just like everyone assumes WalMart has the best prices. Some stuff, yes, some stuff, no. So people gravitate towards GC and Sam Ash thinking that since they have the buying power, their prices must be low. A perfect example is Best Buy, who has probably the most ironic name in the business.

My point is that GC cannot prosper unless they have an abundance of customers.People chose to shop there rather then at the local shop. The lack of customers, the choice of these customers is what closes down the M+P's

GC hasn't prospered for some time, but I'll agree that they tend to have the abundance of customers (mostly for the reason I stade above.) I can't say that all of those customers got the value they probably wanted. But yes, the small shops suffered, but it's not like they weren't trying to compete. The ones that did are mostly still hanging in there. The ones that didn't went under, and probably wondered why.

I agree. The time is right for GC to step up their game.

Yes.

Bermuda
 
This is exactly what I am talking about.
A store that only had demonstration merchandise.
A store that only had highly trained staff.
Of course, we would have to pay for this in the price of the products that we bought there.
Drum companies don't want to invest in this currently.
There simply aren't enough people buying drums and other musical instruments to warrant this.
Thats the problem, Apple can do this because there are many people that buy computers.
When you buy Apple you pay a high price for the product partially because of the store network that apple has.
There aren't enough people that buy Ludwig drums to justify having a Ludwig store, etc.


The drum manufactures are able to make a profit by selling to the chain stores like GC and the Sam Ash, why could they not make a profit showing their products directly to the public? The chain stores have their mark up in price from what they purchase the product.

These show-case stores would not be in every location. The show-case stores do not need to sell anything, except perhaps an occasional purging of their demo models. Since the internet is doing very well and allowing all of us to shop for the best price, the show-case store will just let us, touch and feel the equipment before we make the purchase.

Personally I have been looking forward to going to Dale's drums shop, which is a three and a half hour drive for me. I would certainly make the same trip to one of these show-case shops. My goal in going to Dale’s drum shop is to see what is available and compare products. Dale’s drum shop would have to allow me to compare the prices on the internet when I get home, and then if their prices are better I will make the purchase from Dale’s over the internet. When I arrive at Dale’s, I may be ignorant of competitive prices for something I see there that I like. I assume, I will feel a little pressure, most likely, to make a purchases there. This is just the nature of the business, Dale’s is a retail shop.

When I arrive at the show-case shop, I will not be under pressure to purchase there, because the Pearl, Gretsch, Ludwig or another manufacturer will benefit from a sale through the internet at any place I make the purchase. Unlike the apple stores, these show-case stores really do not have to sell anything. The apple stores also offer a repair shop.
 
Unlike the apple stores, these show-case stores really do not have to sell anything. The apple stores also offer a repair shop.

While they wouldn't have to sell anything, they would still have to be staffed with trained employees, equipped, supplied, pay taxes and do everything else that a store does. In most cases, people want to be able to check out a wide selection of drums from different manufacturers. Store locations are enormously expensive to operate and they can only get by if they can generate enough traffic to justify their existence - even if it's just to trigger online sales. So far, the only way to do that is to have dedicated retailers who make a buck off drums, mics, cables, guitar picks, books, amps and anything else you could name.
 
While they wouldn't have to sell anything, they would still have to be staffed with trained employees, equipped, supplied, pay taxes and do everything else that a store does. In most cases, people want to be able to check out a wide selection of drums from different manufacturers. Store locations are enormously expensive to operate and they can only get by if they can generate enough traffic to justify their existence - even if it's just to trigger online sales. So far, the only way to do that is to have dedicated retailers who make a buck off drums, mics, cables, guitar picks, books, amps and anything else you could name.

Look at how much a manufacturer spends on introducing a new product. Let us take for example the Pearl Demon drive. They had trained Pearl personnel visit every one of their distributors to make sure they understood how to sell and use the product. How much is advertising worth now? Well in the olden days before the internet, it was very hard to track down and equate the cost of how much a TV commercial was worth to the sale of a product. Now with computers to calculate, track and monitor these costs, manufacturers could easily see if it was worth it.

These show-case stores do not have to be devoted to just one brand of musical instrument either. Nor, do they have to be devoted to just one type of musical instrument.

There were several store fronts that used to exist to just test how consumers felt about products. I used to see these in the malls. They had college kids, and house wives confront you when you came into the malls. They had regular people write reviews about new products. I never paid attention to that stuff, but obviously in the days before computers and the internet, and everyone Googling each other, it was hard to track sales figures. These stores did not generate anything except data for the manufactures of the test products.

These are just the details to making something like this work. It seems to be the alternative to the GC’s and Sam Ash stores. Hopefully, I will see the end of them in my lifetime.

Evolving Machine
 
Look at how much a manufacturer spends on introducing a new product. Let us take for example the Pearl Demon drive. They had trained Pearl personnel visit every one of their distributors to make sure they understood how to sell and use the product. How much is advertising worth now? Well in the olden days before the internet, it was very hard to track down and equate the cost of how much a TV commercial was worth to the sale of a product. Now with computers to calculate, track and monitor these costs, manufacturers could easily see if it was worth it.

These show-case stores do not have to be devoted to just one brand of musical instrument either. Nor, do they have to be devoted to just one type of musical instrument.

There were several store fronts that used to exist to just test how consumers felt about products. I used to see these in the malls. They had college kids, and house wives confront you when you came into the malls. They had regular people write reviews about new products. I never paid attention to that stuff, but obviously in the days before computers and the internet, and everyone Googling each other, it was hard to track sales figures. These stores did not generate anything except data for the manufactures of the test products.

These are just the details to making something like this work. It seems to be the alternative to the GC’s and Sam Ash stores. Hopefully, I will see the end of them in my lifetime.

Evolving Machine

That sounds like an interesting concept and it might work. The closest I've seen to this are specialty stores for one instrument type: Stores just for guitars, just for drums, just for violins, just for brass.

So would several manufacturers get together and jointly run the kind of store you are talking about? Or would they hire someone to run it for them? Some manufacturers, like Yamaha, could easily fill a store just with their own stuff - pianos, drums, guitars, electronics, saxophones, violins. Would they sell accessories, like sticks and guitar picks and heads and strings and reeds? What if a customer liked an instrument so much, they wanted to buy it on the spot? That would help the bottom line, but after a certain point, you would have a traditional music store once again. A lot of manufacturers have agreements to only sell through retailers, so they retailers wouldn't like this. If someone wanted to just try something out, the store could direct them to online or local sellers who could provide the goods.
 
So would several manufacturers get together and jointly run the kind of store you are talking about? Or would they hire someone to run it for them? Some manufacturers, like Yamaha, could easily fill a store just with their own stuff - pianos, drums, guitars, electronics, saxophones, violins. Would they sell accessories, like sticks and guitar picks and heads and strings and reeds? What if a customer liked an instrument so much, they wanted to buy it on the spot? That would help the bottom line, but after a certain point, you would have a traditional music store once again. A lot of manufacturers have agreements to only sell through retailers, so they retailers wouldn't like this. If someone wanted to just try something out, the store could direct them to online or local sellers who could provide the goods.
These stores would be “show-case” stores. They would not really sell anything, except an occasional over-used demo model that received too much attention from the locals. So selling used equipment would not interfere with the contract, if any, for the exclusive retail rights to an area.

The stores would show the products that the manufacturer does or does not sell at the GCs or the SAs stores because the GCs and SAs buy in bulk to get the discount and only have a limited inventory. Of course, there would be an occasion where the GCs and SAs happen to make a choice to sell an item that is also being displayed at the “show-case” store.

The consumer would then go on the internet and make the purchase. Unfortunately, the emergency guitar string, drum head or drum stick would have to wait for the UPS/ FedEx driver to arrive.

However, the “show-case” stores would be great for allowing drummers to see Aquarian heads because the local GCs and SAs usually only carry Remo or Evans.

It would be beneficial to have several manufactures use these “show-case” stores at one time. How do we get competing manufactures to use one store, I do not know. However, they all get together to show their wares in trade shows, and this would not be much different from that except they would be open all year. These are just details.
 
The consumer would then go on the internet and make the purchase. Unfortunately, the emergency guitar string, drum head or drum stick would have to wait for the UPS/ FedEx driver to arrive.

This is where I disagree with the showcase idea... how hard would it be for the showcase store to stock these common breakable items? This would also address the income issue to some extent.
 
This is where I disagree with the showcase idea... how hard would it be for the showcase store to stock these common breakable items? This would also address the income issue to some extent.

By the way, thanks for reading and contributing to the thread, everyone.

The purpose of the show-case stores is to provide a way for the manufactures to show off their products. To show off things that most of the local stores do not carry. There will always be a place to buy a stick, or a head. There are local stores that offer lessons and the stick or head. But, we have seen from the discussions earlier that if I break a part on my pedel, the local stores do not carry the replacement parts, so we are back to the UPS/ FedEx special order.

To the manufacturer the show-case store would be very good advertising. The show-case stores could have discount coupons that are distributed at the show-case stores when the customer purchases online. This would then show how well the show-case stores are effective in showing off the products.

Sears used to have catalog stores, where the customers could order at the catalog store. Everything came through the mail. Occasionally the catalog store would act as a place to deliver the items to, it would be a temporary post office for the items.

Evolving Machine
 
The last time I was GC I tried to buy a couple of mic cables. I walked up to the cashier and placed them on the counter. The cashier asked if I needed anythng else, and I said no thanks.

15 minutes later they were still trying to figure out how to ring them up. I was getting agitated. One of the sales guys looks at me and says patience is a virture. I looked back and said "So is competence."

I just walked out.
 
The last time I was GC I tried to buy a couple of mic cables. I walked up to the cashier and placed them on the counter. The cashier asked if I needed anythng else, and I said no thanks.

15 minutes later they were still trying to figure out how to ring them up. I was getting agitated. One of the sales guys looks at me and says patience is a virture. I looked back and said "So is competence."

I just walked out.

The people they hire at GC don't seem to be the brightest. But, that is not the reason why we go there, we go for the free beer.
 
The purpose of the show-case stores is to provide a way for the manufactures to show off their products.
So, how many "show case stores" do you want. One in Los Angeles ... one in New York? One in "every" large US city? There is no way these stores would ever pay for themselves. With 12 + NAMM shows under my belt, I can tell you that manufactures are "downsizing", and have been, year after year. The "glory" days of 1994 are ... gone ... 16 years gone.
However, they all get together to show their wares in trade shows, and this would not be much different from that except they would be open all year. These are just details.
Yeah, you have a lot of very "expensive" details, you need to hammer out.​

To the manufacturer the show-case store would be very good advertising. The show-case stores could have discount coupons that are distributed at the show-case stores when the customer purchases online. This would then show how well the show-case stores are effective in showing off the products.

A manufacture doesn't need to count coupons, to know how many high-end kits they sold. They have bookkeepers/accountants that tell them "how much profit they're making, or not.​
For that matter, why would Yamaha, Pearl, and Tama even "want" to throw money away, in the US. The new markets, India ... and China ... that's where Japan ... and a lot of US manufactures, are turning their attention to. It's probably gonna take the US 10 years, to dig itself out of the hole it's in.​
 
So, how many "show case stores" do you want. One in Los Angeles ... one in New York? One in "every" large US city? There is no way these stores would ever pay for themselves. With 12 + NAMM shows under my belt, I can tell you that manufactures are "downsizing", and have been, year after year. The "glory" days of 1994 are ... gone ... 16 years gone.
Yeah, you have a lot of very "expensive" details, you need to hammer out.​
A manufacture doesn't need to count coupons, to know how many high-end kits they sold. They have bookkeepers/accountants that tell them "how much profit they're making, or not.​
For that matter, why would Yamaha, Pearl, and Tama even "want" to throw money away, in the US. The new markets, India ... and China ... that's where Japan ... and a lot of US manufactures, are turning their attention to. It's probably gonna take the US 10 years, to dig itself out of the hole it's in.​

I am not sure you understand the purpose of what I am proposing. It is an alternative to the Guitar Centers and the Sam Ash chain stores that buy in bulk and only have in their stores what they get in a large volume discounts.

Yes, I have not thought out all the permutations and all the possibilities of what this would look like; I am making a proposal as an alternative. This is not a thesis paper, nor is it a business plan; it is a discussion amongst fellow drummers. The details are not really hard to work out provided some of the large manufactures would take on this endeavor. But, if you like the current situation, you do not need to be upset at this proposal and please go on with your life when you go into a Guitar Center and they do not have any of the products you are looking for, or they try to sell you a year’s supply of soap.

I did not think of the show-case stores when I first started this post. It was after I saw so many fellow drummers that were frustrated with their own Guitar Centers that I asked myself what could be done differently. Now, if you can come up with a better solution for an alternative to the Guitar Centers, I will not hold back and fight you on it.
 
I am not sure you understand the purpose of what I am proposing.
I disagree. I think I understand perfectly ... your proposal.​
It is an alternative to the Guitar Centers and the Sam Ash chain stores that buy in bulk and only have in their stores what they get in a large volume discounts.

Sure, you conjure up an alternative. But is it viable? I don't think so. It's a nice "pipe dream", but by no means a "realistic" commercial venture.​
Yes, I have not thought out all the permutations and all the possibilities of what this would look like; I am making a proposal as an alternative. This is not a thesis paper, nor is it a business plan; it is a discussion amongst fellow drummers.
And so I put forth my opinion, as part of this discussion. I am entitled to have an opinion, am I not?​
The details are not really hard to work out provided some of the large manufactures would take on this endeavor.
Taking care of the details is the only way you turn "dreams" into "reality".[​
But, if you like the current situation,

I really don't have to like, or dislike, the current situation. The only thing I need to do is accept it for what it is.​
you do not need to be upset at this proposal and please go on with your life [
Now you're just being condescending.​
I did not think of the show-case stores when I first started this post. It was after I saw so many fellow drummers that were frustrated with their own Guitar Centers that I asked myself what could be done differently. Now, if you can come up with a better solution for an alternative to the Guitar Centers, I will not hold back and fight you on it.

One of the "main" problems with Guitar Center, is the company that owns them also owns Musicians Friend and Music 123. So if you don't like the service you get, in the store ... you go on line ... and there's a good chance you're still gonna buy the item from them. You're shopping from the same store, different window.​
Musical instruments, in and of themselves, are mostly "luxury" items. And as such, if they stopped making drums tomorrow, the world would continue, without so much as missing a beat. I've been drumming for 43 years, and I have never yet experienced anything close to a life threatening, drum equipment problem.​
Sure, I've experienced a few "inconvieniences" over the years. But that's all they've been.​
 
I disagree. I think I understand perfectly ... your proposal.

I am sorry to say Harry, that if you are suggesting to just purchase on the web, you do not understand the purpose of what I am suggesting here.

It is easy to purchase on the web. I was looking for a new snare drum, either I take a chance and purchase on the web without knowing what the product sounds and feels like, or I can visit a store and see the snare drums.

I am now looking for a new kit. I like the Pearl Reference from what I have seen on the web, the Pearl lifetime warranty and the workmanship I may go that route. But, I am taking a chance, because I can not seem to find them in any of the stores within an hour and a half from here. I would gladly travel three hours just to check out this set before I make the purchase.

Musical instruments are different from other large ticket purchases. There are subtle differences in the products that make it desirable or not to the customer. A car, I think is easier to purchase on the web. However I do not recommend buying one without actually touching the exact model you plan to purchase.

I do apologize if you feel I was being condescending. But that was not the intent or the effect I was after.
 
i like your ideas but i would have to agree with harry. just from a business standpoint, if you were to only put one store in each capital city, that's 50 stores from a distributing company with over head for a large store to house each of their own lines. for a company like pearl that's a lot of drum kits in varying models and styles along with all their side products like racks and pedals, stands and what not. that could easily fill a store larger then your average guitar center, maybe twice as large, to sell absolutely nothing. that's a lot of overhead to not sell a product at all. your talking 10's of thousands each month for each store to not sell a thing, not to mention the cost of the products your going to house in these stores, wear and tear on these products and upkeep, the amount of money in heads alone, cymbals, broken parts, staffing. look at 1 high end kit alone, you could easily spend 3-4 g's on a shell pack, hardware, cymbals, heads, sticks, you could reach 6 g's easily. then you need 1 of each kind of wood, that could be 5 or 6 types of shells. multiply that by 50 stores, that's only one line your over 1.5 million and that's just the drum kits. granted thats not what these kits cost the manufacturer but that's 1.5 million in potential profits lost on nothing. then you could have 5-10 lines plus all the side products plus labor, plus overhead. your talking a tremendous amount of money and goods to compete with stores already carrying your products and doing all your sales for you for free. granted this might pick up sales a little but not nearly enough to recoup what they lost in supplying these products alone. now you talk about competing companies going in together to house all their products with no sales, sorry but that's just not going to happen. no company actually wants a side by side comparison on their products vs. another company of equal standing. tama, yamaha, gretsch and pearl will NEVER concede to work together to be able to compete with each other,invest all this money and product to not make a sale and still compete and still using the same sales staff to give you a coupon to get their products cheaper then what they are currently selling them for for free.

i'll concede i think the idea of such a store is a fabulous idea and i would drive hours to a store i knew had exactly what i wanted on hand for me to try, even if i already knew i had to order it online. i would still get to touch it and see it and make up my mind instead of buying blindly based on hear-say. i honestly wish such a store existed, i would be there every free minute i had, but from a business aspect this is just not cost effective or practical by any means and these businesses are here to make money not to please us. as much as these companies make it sound like we matter and we're important, we don't and we're not. our money matters and their not going to spend more money to make a little when they can do nothing for it for free. they have other companies competing to carry their lines by making more sales for free. mapex i know for a fact requires a minimum of sales for their top lines just to remain a dealer, we're talking orions not horizons here. if you don't sell a certain amount of orions, their top of the line kits, per year they drop you as a dealer and it costs them nothing. these stores come to them and make sales in return for a piece of the profit and your talking about making all the work the work of the supplier when they now get it for nothing, actually having people throw themselves at them to carry their products. if you sold lollipop, would you spend $100 to showcase your suckers when 1000 other people want to do it for you for free?

it really is a good idea just not realistic by any means........





wow, all that while extremely drunk? i surprise myself sometimes............
 
I am sorry to say Harry, that if you are suggesting to just purchase on the web, you do not understand the purpose of what I am suggesting here.
See, this is just a base flaw, in the forum type thang. You want to buy a Pearl Reference drum set ... maybe ..... and it only took us up to post #78, to get to that point. Certainly, no harm, no foul, that's just the way the system works, sometimes.​


Azrae1l see's where I'm coming from. When reality ... and our "wishful thinking" just don't match up at all.​
So now, we can forget all about this..."Make it hard for their customers, the customers will avoid the stores."
And we can forget all about this... "These show-case stores would not be in every location."​
Now we can go here.​
I like the Pearl Reference from what I have seen on the web, the Pearl lifetime warranty and the workmanship I may go that route. But, I am taking a chance, because I can not seem to find them in any of the stores within an hour and a half from here.
Probably tru that. I live in Los Angeles, and I don't think I could find a Reference kit, set up, for me to demo. I've heard them. I've played them. If I wanted to buy one, I'd probably find one used on eBay, and save a boatload of money. The last time I saw a "gently used" Reference kit at the local Guitar Center, they wanted $1899, for a 4 piece kit. Not a bad price. You can "search" on line for "used" Guitar Center gear. If you have a Guitar Center near you, they could "probably" ship any kit to any store.​
They're nice kits, just not my cup-o-tea, so to speak. That's why I drive a 30 year old Ludwig kit (that cost me $1100) and a 17 year old Yamaha Recording Custom kit (that cost me $995). I hope you do buy "your" Pearl Reference kit, and post pictures of it.​
 
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