creating drum parts for songs

I don't think "expressing yourself" and "playing for the song" are an "either-or" situation.

Even if you're dealing with a prog or fusion piece, that has several time signature changes, shredding guitar solos and screams for your best chops, you still pick the fills and phrases that are appropriate for the phasing and subdivisions of the song, you don't just start a free form drum solo at bar one and go over the whole piece. You should still remain sensitive to the dynamics of the song, and pick your spots where they make the most sense to the flow of the song.

And even in a chop filled piece, it's nice to leave space, or time in between chops so each idea sticks out more, and doesn't become a jumbled mess. Listen to "Tom Sawyer" by Rush, and even though that song features Neil Peart's fills, Neil doesn't start the song with a drum fill.

On the flip side, listen to Stan Lynch when he was with Tom Petty. Sure, more of his parts were simple and served the song, but he was still expressive. Listen to "American Girl" or "Breakdown" or "Mary Jane's Last Dance" and you can feel his expression just in the way he places the notes. John Bonham on "When the Levee Breaks" is over flowing with expression without a complex part. Dennis Diken on The Smithereens "Blood and Roses" is straight forward, but he makes it feel just so right that can feel his expression.

If you play the song with heart and feel, you can be expressive no matter if you're soloing in 21/16 or just playing "1,2,3,4."
 
Let me also try to diffuse some of this tension by calling attention the fact that it's VERY difficult to get subtle questions like this across in digital form. Not all of us are masters of English prose, and in some cases - including JPW, I believe - it's not even our first language. Not saying that your English is bad JPW, just saying that I know from experience that it's a lot harder to be subtle in, eg. French for me than it is in my native English. Hell, most of my French is just patently absurd I'm sure. Add to that the difficulty of communicating effectively about tough questions like these WITH the aid of personal contact, and it's a quagmire for sure.

Yes, I try not to bring it up on these discussions though because I don't want any "bonus points" on speaking a foreing language. But often I run in to situations like this one here that I have to question if I didn't know a certain nuance in certain word and my point was corrupted somewhere on the way from my brain to the computer. And to be honest, stuff like this happens even if I write in finnish (which is my main language).

No, it's not hard to understand. And it's perfectly valid. I think what you might be trying to say is that we need to resist the temptation to simply play the "right" thing simply because we've been told it's the "right" thing. And I agree. If some players didn't play the "wrong" thing now and again, music doesn't move forward. I think the not-so-subtle point is there is a difference between merely parroting the "right thing" and playing what works regardless if it worked somewhere else, too. For example, Ndugu Chancler pretty much killed the Money Beat on Billie Jean. I mean, what is there left to say after that statement? But, on the other hand, if the Money Beat pulls all the parts of a tune I'm playing together and helps them all to sing a little more, then I'm going to play it with all my might.

That BTW is exactly how evolution works in the nature also. Many people think evolution is about organisms adapting to their environment but it's actually done through errors always. Without errors there wouldn't be evolution. And I think it's true also for music. My dad's band mate who has taught improvisation in a very high academic level has said "if you make a mistake, make it again and it's right". While that obviously doesn't work in every situation, in a broader sense it's true and definitely right when it sounds good. =) And my point about the money beat in the money beat thread was that even if it did nail many many songs like Billy Jean, I'm very sceptic about it being the culmination of our instrument in such a degree that nothing else need to be created anymore and that there wouldn't be a beat with a status like that in hundred years or so that is completely different.

Nah, you're on the right track. Keep at it. This kind of discussion can get really disheartening. It's so very hard to get stuff like this across without all the data that comes from emotional interaction, body language, inflection of voice, etc. Don't let a little friction on a chat board get you down, man. In fact, go shed it out if you can... :)

I have gotten used to this kind of discussion in the university. And the fact that I'm playing music with improvisation proves that I'm willing to take a risk that I might screw it all up and make myself look like a fool. I think it's the same thing with these musical discussions. You test your wings, most of the times you fall and hurt your self but sometimes you fly a little further and see something new. =)
 
No. I went through it and in my early days it took a kick in the head and a firing to get me to wise up. His statement deserved nothing less. And nothing more.

I went through the same thing in martial arts (I am a slow learner) and it took a ruptured kidney to get me to wise up.

I want the best for JPW. As I do for all members of DW.

I haven't brought this up before (I think) but I have also studied at least four martial arts in my life. And I see your analogies. Both worlds know how to deliver tough love for sure. =)
 
And I see your analogies. Both worlds know how to deliver tough love for sure. =)

Ha ha ha, you get me!

To others, I know no other way. I raised myself in very harsh circumstances and fought for a living while playing gigs in my teens. I am who I am. I have the scars to prove it.

JPW, great! We are no different except one is older and has been yelled at more. ;-)

Remember my friend, cultivate your ears. The goal is always to achieve Big Ears!
 
No. I went through it and in my early days it took a kick in the head and a firing to get me to wise up. His statement deserved nothing less. And nothing more.

I went through the same thing in martial arts (I am a slow learner) and it took a ruptured kidney to get me to wise up.

I want the best for JPW. As I do for all members of DW.

Fair enough. For every thrust, a retreat...
 
Flying by the seat of your pants, running on pure musical wit and experience and FEELING where the music is going, plus making a few lucky guesses...is a real ride! I could never do that on a fusion gig. Or a jazz gig. Or big band, metal, latin, prog...
You have to tell us how it went Wy.
 
In my genre's (rock, to a lesser extent, funk) I usually work the part from the backbeat up. I insert the hat or ride rhythm next. Without any kick drum, I play the number through. At this stage, the drum part should groove perfectly with the song. If it doesn't, I work on it until it does. I then insert the kick drum to provide drive, accent & drama. Cymbals come next with careful selection depending on the required effect. These are often placed without snare or kick support. Finally the fills. These are selected either to maintain the groove, provide build to the next section, deliberately interrupt the groove or define an ending. There, job done. It may sound like I'm treating each kit element in isolation. I am to some degree, but always with an eye to the whole.

The above mainly applies to original material or substantial rework of a cover song. With covers, I just get on the kit, play it as original then maybe deviate slightly according to mood/taste.

Andy I stole this from you. I'm going to do it just like this from now on.
 
If you can "express yourself" and make the song feel good to your bandmates, and the audience, then great.
If you really want to express yourself, write a song, or at least the lyrics, and leave the drumming to someone who understands the role and function of the drumset.
I think your point of view is limited to pop drumming here. There's lots of space for drummers to express yourself, it just depends on the music.
If you have a neat and tidy pop or rock song; verse - chorus - verse - chorus - chorus - bridge - chorus or something similar, well I'd say that whole song hasn't a great lot of potential for expressiveness altogether.
When bands write songs together, they do express themselves, but collectively. There are types of music, like jazz of course, who function differently.
 
You are obviously not experienced in playing shows that require exact performance. Such as a musical or set stage show production for situations
I get the feeling in this thread everyone speaks from a certain position, with situations like, as stated above, musicals or stage shows. So maybe we all have to be clearer in what we talk about exactly. Because stating things like i.e. "drums are less expressive than other instruments" or "drummers have just the function of this and that" (I don't mean anybody personally, just a general tone in many posts) sounds kind of ridiculous to me. I think anybody who is of that opinion thinks of a rather mainstream pop tune (also rock, or latin); but my question would be: how much more self-expressive are the parts of bass, guitar or keyboards in the same situation? The one who might be the most able to express is the singer - but does he really? I think he's kind of bound to the lyrics he sings, he can't express momentary feelings of his own any more than the instrumentalists accompanying him.
Hope my point comes across.
 
Swiss you make a valid point. It's true that in a fusion or prog band, there's a lot more latitude, and it is easier to express yourself, if that's important. And you're also right in

that everyone speaks from a certain position. I guess my position would be of giving advice to increase the probability of getting hired, because I'm guessing that there's way

more guys gigging that are more concerned with making songs work, than the ones whose main goal is to express themselves. Nothing applies globally. I just know for me

that if I used the songs I play in my bands for my own personal playground, I would be OUT! Happily, I don't feel the need to do that.
 
SM makes valid points of course. Each musical situation has it's own requirements. One cannot walk into each situation with an attitude that places ego above the music or one's fellow musicians. People who do that rarely last, no matter the genre. The drumset occupies such a position and has so much power that it can virtually play over and disrupt every other instrument in an ensemble. And when a drummer does that it is a horrible nightmare for the other players.

So how does one come up with drum parts? Well I begin by listening and then trying to compliment the piece. Without a real piece of music here to work on it is hard to give examples. Whether the drummer is busy or not depends on the situation. Creativity does not require that a drummer be busy or simple. Nor does creativity require huge amounts of technical ability. One tries to be a fully rounded human when playing an instrument, sensitive, strong, open etc etc. The music will speak to you if you listen. One doesn't meet a stranger and have expectations as to how a conversation will go. I think it is the same with music.
 
The drumset occupies such a position and has so much power that it can virtually play over and disrupt every other instrument in an ensemble. And when a drummer does that it is a horrible nightmare for the other players.

Got that right brother. They's a lot of power in them tubs, they're like bazookas.

"With great power comes great responsibility" (quote from Spiderman ha ha)
 
The thing is, we have heaps of choices, one of the biggest being - what will I ride on and how? On the hats, the ride, snare, one of the toms, the rims? Bell of the ride? Bell accents? Open hats, closed hats, the edge of the hats? A tambourine or maracas?Quarters, eighths, sixteens, minims (ha - I'm old school) - a combination of them? What accents?

I'll speak of my own approach because I can't speak for others. For most styles of music my first impulse is to start with a default position - back beat while riding on hats or, in swing, spangalangs. The traditional stuff. If that works, great, because the other musos are providing the fire. But if something is missing then I have to work out if it needs something different from me, from someone else, or both. As one of the band's Nazis :) it's my role to sus things out and if something is lacking to suggest that changes need to be made.

Then we have choices as to "input devices" - sticks, which sticks? Brushes, mallets, and other doodads.

Also, I find determining appropriate tempos (and sticking to it) difficult because the sensation of tempo can be mood dependent. Where does the song "want" to sit? How much room does the singer want so as to curl around the words? Does this tempo suit the capabilities of the band members?

I don't care about the overplay/underplay thing; I'm always tweaking my own approach anyway. I certainly do think we have a "voice". In singing we can use our vocal chords in various ways to produce a range of voices. In drumming we can draw on a range of influences if we have eclectic tastes, but in a band situation we usually have to set limits so the band's genre/s is/are established (Bermuda doesn't have this dilemma so much because Weird Al is so eclectic and his briefs are clear).

I've been playing on and off since 1975 and I still don't think I've ever found my drumming "voice" and I can get confused at times about how to approach a song because I listen broadly and have no single preferred genre. It means trying out all sorts of things before deciding what approach works best, but if another band member changes their approach then that might force me to rethink.

Has anyone else struggled with this stuff and come up with solutions? I do agree that one should play for the song but I sometimes wonder if I'm missing opportunities to make a song that is ok really hit the spot.
 
IDK I find it detrimental to try and think about a part in terms of conscious brain activity. I function best when I try and feel the song and listen rather than think.
 
Larry, I find that if I disengage brain then I fall into the same old patterns over and over and then the songs in the set start sounding too same-y. Maybe that doesn't happen to other people and it's just my problem? I don't know.

Since the band plays covers we want to do them differently from the original. We're not a dance band - we play sit down and listen / eat / use as background music.

So I like to record and review the songs and work out if they have something special that might raise goosebumps or at least raise a smile or get feet tapping. If it's a bit ho-hum then I want to work out why it's not happening and whether something can be improved. Sometimes a minor tweak can make a big difference.
 
Two concepts I like to use:

One is borrowed from literature (and movies), which is foreshadowing.

Much like a writer or director will have something early in the book/movie that hints at what is come later, I will take a rhythm that appears later in the song (bridge, or maybe chorus) and play the same rhythm on a different part of the kit for the intro of the song.

The 2nd one is:

Play the same fill every time (i.e. going into the chorus)..
The the 1st time make it simple version of the fill.
2nd time add a few notes
3rd time add more notes.

This doesn't mean the fill gets longer, but maybe the first time it's just "bam, boom, bat"
and the 2nd time put a little ruff right before the 1st note. The 3rd time make the last 8th note two 16ths instead.

My favorite approach, if the song warrants it, is the slow build, going from something simple in the begging of the song, slowly adding bit here and there until it's busy at the end. But this only really works in certain songs.
 
I'm having a little trouble with this "play for the song and not for yourself"-thing...

...I don't know if it's the right thing to do, but that's how I play and it's an interesting joyrney.
Dude, that's all you need. You're right where you need to be. Despite that previously identified didactic tone on here from some quarters, the only "rules" about how you should and shouldn't play are those you impose on yourself. There is no consensus among musicians or songwriters about how a drummer should be approaching the instrument.

And of course they don't want you ruining their songs! Duh!! Geez, that that keeps coming up is driving me bananas! As if you thinking about your part automatically destroys all that is right with the world!!

No matter how you play, if you are good (solid time, tasty appropriate fills, and again, all subjective stuff) there will be people who both like and dislike your approach. You're either too adventurous, or not adventurous enough. Two of my favorite drummers are the Dave's (as in Weckl and Grohl). You'd be hard pressed to come up with two more different drummers, but it just goes to show that different approaches work for different situations. Swap the Dave's and they'd both fail miserably.

If it's just about getting "the gig", then by all means, do what it takes. I've only failed one audition, and in spectacular fashion. It was for a cover band back in like '82. I wasn't too down about it, but I did decide that cover bands weren't for me and never went after another one. Similarly, I've done short stints in bands where it wasn't the right fit - their style just didn't bring out the best in me (and to be honest, they probably noticed too), so I don't play in bands like that anymore. Life is short, play how you like.

The notion that if you're looking for artistic expression and are a drummer, that you've picked the wrong instrument is the biggest load of baloney I've ever heard. Tell that to Neil Peart. In his heyday, he sculpted in rhythms. Hell, he still does.

And by the way, I also play guitar and bass and I do write and record my own songs. But nothing gives me a kick like the drums. I especially like the way I play drums on my songs! Go figure!

Keep playing with the people that like the way you play. If they like being tortured by you, that's their problem!
 
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Just another short blurb about the OPs question and some of the answers, and the debate that's ensued... Personally, I find the approach of finding 2 & 4, then determining the ride pattern, and slowly adding a kick pattern a bit on the timid side. But that's just me.

Of course it's all different strokes and there aren't right/wrong answers, but I kind of like trying the first thing that comes to mind and finding a bunch of variations on that. I admit, it is like chucking a fist-full of spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks. And it often does come with an initial surge of overplaying and over-reaching, but it ALWAYS settles into something that works. It may be unique, or rather pedestrian. You just never know until you try.

Anyway, that's my take.

The original post wasn't asking for the "right" and "wrong" way to go about creating a new drum part from scratch, either. He was asking how other people do it. That's it. I doubt he was looking to start a food fight about it. It's not rocket science or world peace - it's just drumming!
 
Two concepts I like to use:

One is borrowed from literature (and movies), which is foreshadowing.

Much like a writer or director will have something early in the book/movie that hints at what is come later, I will take a rhythm that appears later in the song (bridge, or maybe chorus) and play the same rhythm on a different part of the kit for the intro of the song.

The 2nd one is:

Play the same fill every time (i.e. going into the chorus)..
The the 1st time make it simple version of the fill.
2nd time add a few notes
3rd time add more notes.

This doesn't mean the fill gets longer, but maybe the first time it's just "bam, boom, bat"
and the 2nd time put a little ruff right before the 1st note. The 3rd time make the last 8th note two 16ths instead.

My favorite approach, if the song warrants it, is the slow build, going from something simple in the begging of the song, slowly adding bit here and there until it's busy at the end. But this only really works in certain songs.

Nice thoughts, DED. To some extent the slow build happens in many, many songs, even if in many of them the difference is mild. And then there's Ravel's Bolero :)

Foreshadowing would be a great device in a song that visits a lyrical theme, moves along, and then returns to the theme with a twist later on.

Often the lyrics give me my cue. If it tells a story or describes a situation I usually see my role as reinforcing the emotional content as it waxes and wanes. If the lyrics describe a mood then sometimes it's best to mostly stay put to reinforce the mood.

Earlier nocTurnal asked, "What do you think of the "fill-free" A Hard Day's Night?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQwwqajZXD8. If your band decided to cover it and wanted the drums to do something different, what might you think about adding (or subtracting) and where might you put it?
 
The 2nd one is:

Play the same fill every time (i.e. going into the chorus)..
The the 1st time make it simple version of the fill.
2nd time add a few notes
3rd time add more notes.

This doesn't mean the fill gets longer, but maybe the first time it's just "bam, boom, bat"
and the 2nd time put a little ruff right before the 1st note. The 3rd time make the last 8th note two 16ths instead.
This is exactly how Neil Peart used to construct his parts (not so much anymore). I don't use this method, but not for lack of liking it. My attention span is too short!

Similarly, I kind of like finding a definitive fill (or event) and using it at every "like" point is a song, using it as a recurring theme. Have to be careful with that to keep from getting stale or boring, but a little bit predictable is okay, as long as it sounds really cool.
 
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