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Old 09-07-2018, 05:16 PM
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Odd-Arne Oseberg Odd-Arne Oseberg is offline
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Default Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

I always skip this and forget to talk about it, but my question should self explanatory, I guess.
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Old 09-07-2018, 06:33 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

Uhhh that's all screwed up. Normally I believe a ruff on a roll is old school rudimental-ese for starting the roll a 16th note early, with the ruff played at the same speed as the body of the roll. But here he's not including the ruff in the name of the rolls, so maybe you're supposed to crush the ruff in a little faster. Or maybe he's following some 1930s drummer logic that makes no sense whatsoever to modern man.

You also have to ignore the internal stickings for the roll-- you would have to change the pulsation speed in the middle of the roll to match what he has written. Just play the roll at an even speed, starting and ending on the indicated hand. Oh and the last 12 also ends differently than all the other 12s, despite being exactly the same and starting on the same hand.

I'm starting to think these old timey rudimental knuckleheads didn't understand notation very well. I've completely lost patience with trying to figure their crap out.
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:02 PM
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

It is strange. I go through them all regularly and the rest of the etudes look fine.

It's been in print for "a while", so it's sorta weird.
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Old 09-07-2018, 07:34 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

The book Rolling in Rhythm is also real messed up. I was blaming it on Richard Sakal, who made several bad Wilcoxon editions, but clearly the original is a little screwy, too.
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:39 PM
Swissward Flamtacles Swissward Flamtacles is offline
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

Hmm, the sticking in my edition is different. I have no idea how it is supposed to be played but I'd think that the first two lefts are double the tempo of the roll.



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Old 09-07-2018, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

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Originally Posted by Swissward Flamtacles View Post
Hmm, the sticking in my edition is different. I have no idea how it is supposed to be played but I'd think that the first two lefts are double the tempo of the roll.





Makes a bit more sense. :-)
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Old 09-08-2018, 10:12 PM
John Riley John Riley is offline
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

If you omit the drag, these are 16th-note 9 stroke rolls from beat 2 to beat 6 in 6/8. The drag is squeezed in between beat 1 and 2 making it an 11 stroke roll.

Those with a "12" are exactly the same but note # "12" is actually beat 1 of the next bar.

John
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Old 09-08-2018, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

Cool to hear from you John.

Just so we all understand the reason for my question, this is how it looks in my copy.

I guess you can play it, sort of, but it makes no sense.

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Old 09-09-2018, 12:16 AM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

I guess this is literally what's intended, and what John describes-- you have to pencil in this sticking for all of the 12s except the last one, because the written sticking is wrong.
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I actually wrote a blog post fussing with this and complaining about it.
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Old 09-09-2018, 04:57 PM
Swissward Flamtacles Swissward Flamtacles is offline
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

This thread reminded me of another odd solo:





I've just had a look on youtube and found this interpretation that it could be correct: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdgGIYX18Y4


I guess an introductory text would be very helpful since the Wilcoxon books are still so popular.
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Old 09-09-2018, 07:22 PM
toddbishop toddbishop is offline
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

A couple of problems with that video:

-- I haven't seen rolls released with the same hand as the last double stroke anywhere in any Wilcoxon book. He writes all of these things out note for note elsewhere. I wouldn't assume presence of some new, very technical thing just because it's implied by him writing his rolls weirdly/wrongly in a couple of solos.

-- I think the solos in 6/8 are meant to be played faster than in the video, like regular 6/8 march tempo, where the "pull out" really isn't feasible. He has written things in 3/4 and 3/8 where the rolls are written as rhythms, that are clearly meant to be in the tempo range in the video, but still none of the rolls end that way.

On the other hand, his books are full of weird, non-literal stuff-- like how are you supposed fit a ruff in the space after a 32nd note at any normal tempo? Clearly what's intended is a roll with a quintuplet pulsation-- which is a thing that is done all the time-- but for whatever reason notating it that way was a problem for him. Apparently he also had a problem notating tap rolls in 6/8.
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Old 09-09-2018, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

I think we can safely assume that none of these exercises were originally intented to work on impossible stuff that would have no real use to anyone. lol

It is strange though that with such an old book no effort's been made to correct the mistakes.
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Old 09-10-2018, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odd-Arne Oseberg View Post
It is strange though that with such an old book no effort's been made to correct the mistakes.
It seems that way. But I was listening to an episode of the Drummer's Weekly Groovecast podcast where Phil interviewed Ted Mackenzie and they were talking about how difficult it was to get anyone to do anything about even obvious errors in some of these drum method books. They may seem huge to us in the drumming community, but relatively speaking, there aren't that many copies sold and the cost of publishing corrections is prohibitive.
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:37 AM
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

He was no Alistair MacLean, I'm sure, but they could at least start a small piece of paper with corrections along with the book, or something.
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  #15  
Old 09-11-2018, 01:28 PM
Swissward Flamtacles Swissward Flamtacles is offline
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Default Re: Wilcoxon No.114 WTF?!?

Exactly! I was also talking about an interpretation of the 'correct' solos to make the book more accessible.

Stuff like how to play the drags (which is explained a bit in Modern Rudimental Solos) and the rhythmic value of 5 and 7 stroke rolls. Then maybe a short statement which solos are most likely wrong. Right now everybody has to figure out stuff on their own.

I'm sure there are enough knowledgeable drummers who would write this one page for Ludwig without charging too much. :)
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