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  #41  
Old 09-01-2018, 07:10 PM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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The Fibonacci Sequence is cool. It's the snail shell in a mathematical sequence. 1+1=2, 1+2=3, 2+3=5, 3+5=8, 5+8=13, 8+13=21, so on and so forth. It forms a perfect spiral and is endless. It's the last two digits of the previous problem added together. Never seen it in a rhythm, but why not?
Tool's Lateralus has some Fibonacci.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralus_(song)
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  #42  
Old 09-04-2018, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

I'm proof that it's possible to be pretty terrible at both, so there's that. ;)
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  #43  
Old 09-05-2018, 12:06 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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Tool's Lateralus has some Fibonacci.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateralus_(song)
Very interesting. I never really got into Tool. Would have had no idea had you not posted that. Cool!
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  #44  
Old 09-05-2018, 01:14 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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...4 dogs X 3 bowls of food (.66 bowls each) is not the same as 3 dogs X 4 bowls of food (1.33 bowls each).

I'm just messing with you. I love math!
Erm, you've used 'X' where I think you meant to use '/'.

It's a math(s) thing.
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  #45  
Old 09-05-2018, 01:31 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

There's other things at play in musical theory that work as well as (or better than) math to enable you as a drummer, including pattern recognition, logic, memory, synesthesia, coordination, internal timing, and true independence (five- or six-way). The math of drumming is largely limited to subdivisions and counting until you get into the most complex of notation and time signatures - which doesn't involve that many of us, frankly.
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  #46  
Old 09-05-2018, 02:01 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

Something for the smart guys to chew on and discuss...admittedly over this old dogs head (fractuals? Lol). Oh,it includes a look at Jeff Porcaros work on "I Keep Forgetting".....

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015...ng-may-be-math
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  #47  
Old 09-05-2018, 02:24 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

Which appeared first, maths or drums?

A very basic google tells me evidence of complex maths first appeared around 3000BC, evidence of first drums 6000BC....

I wouldn't rely on these dates, since it's literally just the first wikipedia pages I opened, but it's an interesting thought...
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  #48  
Old 09-05-2018, 03:44 PM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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You can suck at math as long as you have a "good time" machine-no not a calculator I'm talking internal "time" machine-or metronome.......
I almost spit out my coffee laughing.. When I read "GOOD TIME machine". I immediately imagined some sort of adult entertainment device.. lol. (Of course saying it as a Good- TIME machine. makes me think of flux capacitors and such.)


I know it's not you its me, but still, it's early.. and still funny in my head.

T.
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  #49  
Old 09-05-2018, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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Erm, you've used 'X' where I think you meant to use '/'.

It's a math(s) thing.
This ^^^

and still, if there was a like button, I wouldn't have to waste space quoting stuff as much.

T.
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  #50  
Old 09-05-2018, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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Erm, you've used 'X' where I think you meant to use '/'.

It's a math(s) thing.
Okay yeah it becomes a division problem, but I was defining terms. Perhaps I should have said 3 dogs AND 4 bowls of food vs 4 dogs AND 3 bowls of food.
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  #51  
Old 09-05-2018, 04:37 PM
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Golden numbers the Fibonacci sequence and golden ratio. It amazing how physical laws apply to biological systems-like leaf veination and our vasculature follows Murray’s law fairly closely. At least for our micro-vessels (arterioles and capillaries, etc)our Great arteries are regulated more by genetic factors. I’ve never considered myself very math oriented- reading Bert Fung’s book on biomechanics was a real challenge. I had a bunch of artery biomechanics in my PhD dissertation (so I had to teach myself best I could about the field)and of my five committee members only two really understood that aspect so I spent a lot of time explaining that part. It was a weird mix of developmental biology, vessel microstructure form and function ( used a polarizing microscope to examine molecular order of collagen and elastin), and vessel viscoelastic properties. It turned out great, finished with distinction, and I should have published it. However one of my committee members was a huge spiteful pain in the ass who had a grievance with my mentor so I was her whipping post in her proxy war. I remember one time she disliked my data-said “I don’t believe it” and critiqued my methods. So I adopted another well published method re-did it all and got same results. She then asks why was I doing it. Man I went apoplectic and thankfully my mentor stopped me and asked me to leave the room. Nothing was ever said about it again but it left me with a bitter taste. I told my mentor I’ll never publish this work cause I’d have to put her name on it. Seems like karma meeting spite with spite. Seems petty and I later started to work on publishing it but two post docs got me too busy. Oh bother I’d rather be playing drums.
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  #52  
Old 09-05-2018, 06:45 PM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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I'm not understanding the question.

What's the correlation between math skills and drumming?
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Originally Posted by Gottliver View Post
Counting 1,2,3,4 over 8,12,16 or 32 bars.

Maybe counting 3, 5, 7 or 9. But thats not music, that's Jazz.

Just kidding, I love Jazz.
I don't see much of a correlation to being good at math and being able to feel/count polyrhythms - for one, those are not difficult concepts - it's basic addition and multiplication - and any good musician likely is going to wind up playing those things by feel after developing the coordination. At least that's how I see it anyway.

As for counting, I used to play next to this trombone player (I'm a trumpet player first) and certain songs, particularly funk tunes where certain horn lines hit in the cracks, were aggravating because he counted everything and couldn't really play them by feel. The problem with playing that way is that if you count, particularly on some of the faster tunes with more complex horn lines, you won't be in the pocket on some of those figures - you'll be slightly late, and that was the case with this guy. We never were tight as a horn section because of that.

The next guy we brought in was a sax player who did get it, and it was like THANK YOU! From day 1 we locked in tight together as a section, and it just got better the longer he and I played together.
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  #53  
Old 09-06-2018, 12:16 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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Okay yeah it becomes a division problem, but I was defining terms. Perhaps I should have said 3 dogs AND 4 bowls of food vs 4 dogs AND 3 bowls of food.
And 10 out of 3 people don't understand fractions.
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  #54  
Old 09-06-2018, 12:23 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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And 10 out of 3 people don't understand fractions.
Haha I think you win! I want a shirt that says that!
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  #55  
Old 09-06-2018, 12:47 AM
J-Boogie J-Boogie is offline
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

That was awesome JJ, ur a riot!
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  #56  
Old 09-06-2018, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

When I was in grade 13 algebra (more or less equivalent to first-year university level) there was a girl in my class who would intuit the answers to all the questions. She would write down the answer and the teacher would say 'yes that's very good but you need to show the work'. I'm talking like a page's worth of steps in some cases. She would always get 100% on those country-wide math competitions where you only have to give the answer.

The interesting part is that although she knew the answer, she was only mediocre at doing the steps (the 'show your work' part). In her actual class tests, she'd get mid-70's.

So that was a person who was both a genius at math, and also not very good at math. How does this translate to drumming? I have no idea, but I think it's a cool story.
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  #57  
Old 09-06-2018, 01:34 AM
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When I was in grade 13 algebra (more or less equivalent to first-year university level) there was a girl in my class who would intuit the answers to all the questions. She would write down the answer and the teacher would say 'yes that's very good but you need to show the work'. I'm talking like a page's worth of steps in some cases. She would always get 100% on those country-wide math competitions where you only have to give the answer.

The interesting part is that although she knew the answer, she was only mediocre at doing the steps (the 'show your work' part). In her actual class tests, she'd get mid-70's.

So that was a person who was both a genius at math, and also not very good at math. How does this translate to drumming? I have no idea, but I think it's a cool story.
You've left out the all important detail:

Was she hot?
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  #58  
Old 09-06-2018, 01:41 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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Originally Posted by One Up One Down View Post
When I was in grade 13 algebra (more or less equivalent to first-year university level) there was a girl in my class who would intuit the answers to all the questions. She would write down the answer and the teacher would say 'yes that's very good but you need to show the work'. I'm talking like a page's worth of steps in some cases. She would always get 100% on those country-wide math competitions where you only have to give the answer.

The interesting part is that although she knew the answer, she was only mediocre at doing the steps (the 'show your work' part). In her actual class tests, she'd get mid-70's.

So that was a person who was both a genius at math, and also not very good at math. How does this translate to drumming? I have no idea, but I think it's a cool story.
I had that argument with my ninth grade algebra teacher. She said I wasn't showing my work, she thought I was cheating, but I pointed out that I was the first one done. It got really interesting solving three or four simultaneous equations in my head.

I think another factor is there are many electrical engineers and mathematicians that turn out garbage math page after page of worthless theorems that assume 1 is 2, but they showed their work.

People have said that music is actually more abstract than math, I'm not so sure, but it does seem that people in different disciplines don't like to acknowledge that they are reasoning symbolically or abstractly(like biologists).
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  #59  
Old 09-06-2018, 01:45 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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You've left out the all important detail:

Was she hot?
Depends if you like asian girls?

Is it still racist if you're complimenting a group with a stereotype?
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  #60  
Old 09-06-2018, 02:23 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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Is it still racist if you're complimenting a group with a stereotype?
Not if you were the one to say it James.

Plus the fact that it's a compliment probably wouldn't ruffle any feathers. It's just when you call a certain social group out on something, or put them down. However I read no compliments from you. You only posed a possibility. You're good.
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  #61  
Old 09-06-2018, 04:19 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

I debated with myself if I should go with the opposite "blonde - math is hard" stereotype, or the "Asians are automatically good at math" stereotype. The decision was based on the aforementioned fact that the latter is more of a compliment, as who doesn't want to be good at math?

It's not easy having such a complex decision making system, but I'm pretty successful in hurting the least amount of feelings possible, I think. Very important in this day and age that you not offend anyone who's offend-able.
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  #62  
Old 09-06-2018, 02:20 PM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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Depends if you like asian girls?

Is it still racist if you're complimenting a group with a stereotype?
Some Asian girls may also hate math, just not the ones that end up in the US on a STEM visa.
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  #63  
Old 09-06-2018, 02:25 PM
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I just assumed you were referring to their nationality. According to National Geographic " Today, Asia is home to the citizens of Afghanistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, Cambodia, China, Georgia, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Lebanon, Malaysia, Maldives, Mongolia, Myanmar (Burma), Nepal, North Korea, Oman, Pakistan, Philippines, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, Timor-Leste (East Timor), Turkey, Turkmenistan, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, and Yemen." So it's a good bet someone in those countries is good at math-since that is the majority of the population of planet. There is no biological race so using the term "Asian" has to refer to location because it is like calling someone "Big Foot" because both are mythical.
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  #64  
Old 09-06-2018, 02:38 PM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

So you're saying there's not one Canadian in Asia?

Wow Art.

Art. Short for smart.

James, was this debate with yourself said aloud or were you just debating silently? Just so I have the clearest possible mental image. If it was out loud, was there any slobber involved?
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  #65  
Old 09-06-2018, 07:04 PM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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You've left out the all important detail:

Was she hot?
So, we weren't sure if this person was male or female -- they were very androgynous-looking. I suspect female but don't actually know, so to simplify the story I used female. The next question is: Is that a turn-on for you? ;)
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  #66  
Old 09-06-2018, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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James, was this debate with yourself said aloud or were you just debating silently? Just so I have the clearest possible mental image. If it was out loud, was there any slobber involved?
Unfortunately, internal debate. I'd get in all sorts of trouble if I just said everything I was thinking about the idiocy around me.

I'll make you a deal though, as we share our first beer, I'll go full stream of consciousness running dialog for you until you call uncle out of embarrassment and we get kicked out of the McDonalds play area for having beer.
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  #67  
Old 09-07-2018, 02:11 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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So, we weren't sure if this person was male or female -- they were very androgynous-looking. I suspect female but don't actually know, so to simplify the story I used female. The next question is: Is that a turn-on for you? ;)
Not so much.

I preferred it when she used to be a hot blonde Asian girl with a fondness for German beer and the guitar stylings of Stevie Ray Vaughan.
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  #68  
Old 09-07-2018, 04:13 AM
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Default Re: Can you be a good drummer with bad math skills?

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Not so much.

I preferred it when she used to be a hot blonde Asian girl with a fondness for German beer and the guitar stylings of Stevie Ray Vaughan.
That’s my wife...minus the blonde hair.
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  #69  
Old 09-07-2018, 05:45 AM
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I'll make you a deal though, as we share our first beer, I'll go full stream of consciousness running dialog for you until you call uncle out of embarrassment and we get kicked out of the McDonalds play area for having beer.
Hmm. Let me think about that.

OK I'm done.

As attractive as that sounds, I'm gonna hold out for a better deal :P
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:13 PM
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Hmm. Let me think about that.

OK I'm done.

As attractive as that sounds, I'm gonna hold out for a better deal :P
What if I offer a 2 for 1?
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Old 09-07-2018, 08:35 PM
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True story, when I first started out with music, I didn't even get the concept of counting to 4. I knew that music was cyclical, and I knew that we always counted to 4 before starting to play, but I didn't put the two things together in that the pulse you counted off relates to the tempo and length of the cycle.

So you don't even really have to count at all if you just pay attention to the rhythms in what you're playing.

And I think that's totally fine. I see all sorts of things with my younger students. Sometimes older students, too.

Anyone can learn anything provided a bit of realism, patience and a teacher who doesn't give up until he/she finds the way that helps you understand.

If something on the drums is mathematically challenging to yuo, then you're trying to progrss about 100 000x faster than you should if you want those skills to have any artistic, musical, pedagogical or personal technical relevance.

Baby steps and as close to total mastery as you can get at that point in time. It's not the only way, but I'll argue for it being the best until my dying day.

If you can't actually use it, it has no all value.
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