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  #1  
Old 08-19-2018, 10:49 PM
haole792 haole792 is offline
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Default advise with advice

I've been away from drums for awhile. I have a set of Pearl forum series from a pawn shop but brand new. I replaced batter heads with Evans wet heads(hydraulic glass). This was a mistake I do believe. The tones are not right for me. It seems to kill the resonance. After playing them I am thinking maybe coated single ply batters and maybe even coated resonants. I know the quality of the drums I have so any advice will be appreciated.
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Old 08-19-2018, 10:50 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

If you want resonance, Evan Hydraulic heads are the opposite of what you want.
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Last edited by MrPockets; 08-19-2018 at 11:02 PM.
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  #3  
Old 08-19-2018, 11:17 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

It depends.

Coated or clear over clear is where I would start. I prefer single ply, but if you want more botton you put 2-ply on top.

Many options today and there are brand differences in regards to the same type of heads, but that's more fine tuning.
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

Hello - Here’s from my experience in Remo and Evans for simplicity, semantics between brands notwithstanding. 2 ply Remo ambassadors clear will get you brighter sound while coated will get you are little drier sound - more or less the same with Evans G2 series. Single plies Diplomat and Evans G1s (mostly for resonant side) or u can go with a little more durability Evans G12 and G14 (most durable single ply Evans has) will give the most sustain but you will lose durability. Then there’s the stripes I.e. pinstripes from remo and Evans GC2s for little more sound control. A good ideal as to not overwhelm yourself is thin thinner the heads the more resonance and coating will provide less attack (i.e. “warmth) than a glassy clear head. The oiled or hydraulic heads give fat wet sounds. Forum friends please add as you see fit. But all this goes to wash if you do not know how to tune your skins.
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:39 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

Ambassadors are single ply. Emperors are 2-ply.

I believe Ambassadors and G1s would be more natural to compare. Both 10 mil single ply. What we have in recent years are a lot of slight variations of each.

Diplomats are even thinner.
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Old 08-19-2018, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

I compromised with coated Vintage ambassadors which are 2-ply but instead of two 7 mill like Emperor's it's a 7.5 and a 3 mil 2 ply so still about 10 mils. The clear has more bright attack and the coated are described as "warmer"-which I agree but that's a funny description the more I think about it (it less bright). My understanding the thinner the more overtones and thicker more resonance/sustain (more mass makes sense)-not sure about 2 ply?
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Last edited by GetAgrippa; 08-19-2018 at 11:58 PM.
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Old 08-20-2018, 12:10 AM
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Default Re: advise with advice

Somebody on here, who knows a great deal about drum building, and is actually something of a guru once told me that G2 clears over G1 clears is an excellent starting point for any drum.
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Old 08-20-2018, 01:10 AM
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Default Re: advise with advice

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Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
Somebody on here, who knows a great deal about drum building, and is actually something of a guru once told me that G2 clears over G1 clears is an excellent starting point for any drum.
I totally agree with this. I still use this head combo. Peace and goodwill.
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  #9  
Old 08-20-2018, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: advise with advice

Haole792, what other drummer would you like to sound like, or what recorded song do you want to sound like?
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  #10  
Old 08-20-2018, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: advise with advice

Thanks for the correction Odd. I was going off the cuff and should have researched/proofed what I typed. :)
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  #11  
Old 08-20-2018, 01:38 AM
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Default Re: advise with advice

I'd like to address some misinformation that the thinner the head, the more resonance. Actually it's sustain being discussed, not resonance.

Resonance and sustain are 2 different things. Resonance is a property of the shell, how easily it vibrates. Sustain, meaning a long note or not, is a cumulative effect of heads, bearing edge width, profile, angle and trueness, tuning of both heads, using muffling or not, the way the drum is hit, and probably a bunch of other factors.

It's a fact that the more mass of the head, the longer it will remain in motion when struck, which translates to longer sustain. So a thinner head dies out quicker. I can personally vouch for that. Cool if you like that sound but not conducive to sustain.

For sustain, use a 10 mil head minimum. There is a trade off going thicker than 10 mil, you lose a little crispness IMO. But there are big advantages that make it well worth it, like deeper tone and longer sustain. A more commanding sound. Two ply heads are a great choice for a huge number of people. Unmuffled, they will have a more "dialed in" sound than an unmuffled 10 mil single ply, which is a little more uncontrolled, and needs finer tuning IMO. Two ply heads are a little more forgiving.

I'd suggest sticking with plain 1 or 2 ply heads, coated or clear, from the big 3. Single ply 10 mil clears are the industry standard for reso heads. It's a great starting place. Any muffling will shorten sustain.

The oil filled heads are a whole different animal than all the other heads. You really can't compare them to the other heads. A non-newtonian liquid inside your drumhead, changes the game lol.
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Last edited by larryace; 08-20-2018 at 01:58 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-20-2018, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: advise with advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I'd like to address some misinformation that the thinner the head, the more resonance. Actually it's sustain being discussed, not resonance.

Resonance and sustain are 2 different things. Resonance is a property of the shell, how easily it vibrates. Sustain, meaning a long note or not, is a cumulative effect of heads, bearing edge width, profile, angle and trueness, tuning of both heads, using muffling or not, the way the drum is hit, and probably a bunch of other factors.

It's a fact that the more mass of the head, the longer it will remain in motion when struck, which translates to longer sustain. So a thinner head dies out quicker. I can personally vouch for that. Cool if you like that sound but not conducive to sustain.

For sustain, use a 10 mil head minimum. There is a trade off going thicker than 10 mil, you lose a little crispness IMO. But there are big advantages that make it well worth it, like deeper tone and longer sustain. A more commanding sound. Two ply heads are a great choice for a huge number of people. Unmuffled, they will have a more "dialed in" sound than an unmuffled 10 mil single ply, which is a little more uncontrolled, and needs finer tuning IMO. Two ply heads are a little more forgiving.

I'd suggest sticking with plain 1 or 2 ply heads, coated or clear, from the big 3. Single ply 10 mil clears are the industry standard for reso heads. It's a great starting place. Any muffling will shorten sustain.

The oil filled heads are a whole different animal than all the other heads. You really can't compare them to the other heads. A non-newtonian liquid inside your drumhead, changes the game lol.
Oops my bad the "resonance/sustain" was confusing but I agree the more mass vibrating the more sustain (does make sense). Resonance is how a vibrating body affects another body.
So it makes sense a thinner 7 mil ply will sound brighter and have more overtones-less sustain. A 10 mil does seem perfect-why I was thinking a vintage ambassador would be a compromise. I think you are right 2 ply do sound dialed in more punchy. I like 10 ml reso heads on toms because of the sustain (lots of kits come with thinner reso on toms). I rather have the tone than overtones.
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  #13  
Old 08-20-2018, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

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Originally Posted by MrPockets View Post
If you want resonance, Evan Hydraulic heads are the opposite of what you want.
Yup. I have a set of these. I only bought them because they were durable and I was poor at the time. I still have them on my drums, and it's been almost 20 years. So, what's worse than Evans Hydraulic heads? Try 20-year-old Evans Hydraulic heads.

Come to think of it, they probably sound about the same that they did when I bought them.
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Old 08-20-2018, 07:36 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

I think it depends on the sound you are going after, but I've always thought that Remo clear Pinstripes always sounded great on Pearl poplar drums.
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Old 08-20-2018, 08:58 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustJames View Post
Somebody on here, who knows a great deal about drum building, and is actually something of a guru once told me that G2 clears over G1 clears is an excellent starting point for any drum.
This.

You can't start at a better spot in your search for the right heads for your taste.

*Top (batter) heads: two-ply coated or clear. In general, this would be Evans G2 or Remo Emperor.
*Bottom (resonant) heads: single-ply coated or clear. In general, these would be Evans G1 or Remo Ambassador.

While you are buying heads, pick up a set of dampers, such as MoonGel Damper Pads. These will allow you to vary the sustain of the heads and get the lively or damped characteristic you may desire. If nothing else, they are certainly fun to experiment with - and they are cheap.

And don't sweat the quality of your Pearl drums. With proper heads and tuning, even an entry-level kit like the Forums can be made to sound very nice. The really big deal is the quality of your hardware and cymbals. Especially cymbals. Get those right and your Forum kit will give you many pleasurable hours of playing.

GeeDeeEmm
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  #16  
Old 08-20-2018, 09:18 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

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Originally Posted by trickg View Post
I think it depends on the sound you are going after, but I've always thought that Remo clear Pinstripes always sounded great on Pearl poplar drums.
Pins are also pre-muffled and it sounds like he wants to get away from that.

I'd second G2 over G1 as my advice. Or even G1 over G1 if we're really looking for a nice open sound.
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Old 08-20-2018, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Pins are also pre-muffled and it sounds like he wants to get away from that.

I'd second G2 over G1 as my advice. Or even G1 over G1 if we're really looking for a nice open sound.
They ring a lot more than Hydraulics - I've never felt that Pins were too dead. Clear Pins (to me) have always had a nice clear attack with a very round tone and just enough sustain.

It depends on the sound they are after, and they haven't updated their thread yet with any additional information.

I've also used coated single ply heads to warm things up a bit. To me, single ply batters are easier to tune, although these days I use a Tune-Bot quite a bit, which takes the guess work out of things.
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Old 08-20-2018, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: advise with advice

First, think of what you want to attain, tone wise. If you're looking for a warm vintage sound ..... that puts you in the "coated" head column. If you want a bright, more modern sound ..... "clear" heads would be the way to go.
Then, think about how much sustain and overtones you want. A really live sound, or a more EQ'd studio type sound. Since you're giving thumbs down to the hydraulic heads, sounds like you're looking for a more live sound.
My default head combo is usually Remo coated Emperor over clear Ambassador, for my toms.
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Old 08-21-2018, 08:27 PM
haole792 haole792 is offline
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Default Re: advise with advice

Thanks for all the info. From around the world. I began playing years ago and had 2 sets, neither with reso's. Remo pinstripes were great. Still have Slingerlands ,no reso's. This is new to me so a work in progress learning to tune. All the info is helpful. And yes, I like a good heavy classic tone. New it was a mistake when I hit them. Ibased on the advice, I think I know what I will try next. Thanks again everyone.
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