Vintage Drum Bearing Edges

I picked up some old Ludwigs this week, and I am in the process of getting them back in shape. I noticed on both the 12 and 13 inch toms that the area of the bearing edge where the overlap is protrudes (both up and out) a bit, and the shell is just a bit out of round in that area. I will attach a couple of photos.

My question is- what is most important: roundness of the shell, co-planar peak of edge, or shape/profile of edge?

I would argue the profile of the edge. I had a 1978 solid black Ludwig vistalite floor tom that was not round. In fact, the seam where the plexi met was where it wasn't really round. But the bearing edge was clean, and that floor tom tuned well and sounded great. It was weird, but I went with it.

I have vintage Slingerlands toms that have a slight 'bulge' there as well. I wouldn't say out of round but it makes new heads snug.
I don't have any Luds. But the bearing edge for 3 ply also looks mighty sharp to me, with no roundover, like they've been re-cut maybe? I thought 3 ply Luds have the roundover.

Anyway, awesome looking drums. Nice. You got a nice shop to fix 'em up in...and even a little vodka and whisky too!

D

pretty normal to have a lump where the plies overlap in vintage drums.

especially Ludwig because they would often include the wrap in the bend and you would actually see wrap between the plies of the shell in the bearing edge

lots of info about it in these two videos

my buddy Jess discusses the bulge you speak of in the second video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxqniBoLBF0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP33f5dlvPA

Thanks for the links to the videos! I thought it was interesting that Mr. Vecchio said that the particular Ludwig example he showed had unusually sharp bearing edges, and that the 70s three ply B/O badge drums were particularly sought after for recording. One of the YouTube suggested videos was a Steve Maxwell vid on bearing edges, and the technician routed the inner edge and used a file to hand form the outer profile.

I am fairly certain that these drums were not messed with other than benign neglect and a very misguided beginning at a rewrap that ended abruptly with totally lost lugs.

I went out and looked at the 13 inch tom that had a bottom hoop missing, and the bearing edge is somewhat sharp like the 12, and the 16 likely is the same (based on the appearance with the head on). You can see in the picture here the 12 inch tom on my shaper table- the high spot where the overlap is, and the gap underneath as you move away from that area.

This also helps me decide what to do with the edges, at least for now: leave them alone and see how they tune up.

sethlowden said:

My question is- what is most important: roundness of the shell, co-planar peak of edge, or shape/profile of edge?

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In my experience of restoring vintage drums, the operation that makes the biggest difference is getting the edge co-planar (or "level").

The reason behind this is that any high or low spots will result in the head not making contact, which will result in wolf tones, buzzes, tuning anomalies, etc.

What I do is set the shell on a granite slab and see if it rocks back and forth. That will reveal high spots. Then I dim the lights and put a flashlight inside the shell, which will reveal low spots.

To level these out, I have a flat piece of veneer plywood to which I have spray-glued sheets of sandpaper. I spin the shell on this and check it on the slab until the high and low spots are gone.

Then I take some sandpaper in my hand and knock the hard edges off, getting as close to the original profile as possible.

The shape and profile of the edge affect the overall tone and sustain, as described by others in this thread. Since I want my vintage drums to sound vintage, I try to stick as close as possible to the original profile.

It's hard to tell from the closeup of the edge if the wrap is tucked into the lap joint. Does it appear to you that it is? That's the way Ludwig used to do it. But I thought they had stopped that practice by the blue and white era. Maybe the toms are super-early B&O. Or maybe re-badged. What are the serial numbers?

Not answering your question here, just curious... I'm always curious about the myriad little inconsistencies in Ludwig's production history.

But hang loose for a bit. Someone with a wealth of Ludwig info will chime in soon.

Starship Krupa said:

In my experience of restoring vintage drums, the operation that makes the biggest difference is getting the edge co-planar (or "level").

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I completely agree with this. It's the one element that is directly within your control almost irrespective of other issues. Be aware that surfaces you believe to be perfectly flat, are not necessarily so - even marble/granite counter tops, but for the purposes of vintage edge restoration, they're easily good enough.

It is possible to remove the affect of the "bump". It's not easy, as the best method involves slight relocation of the bearing edge crest to accommodate the bump & any other out of round issues buy utilisation of a lathe or CNC mill c/w full mapping. That's beyond most people, & should only be attempted by those with both the skill & the gear to do it. It's also over the top IMHO, given the other performance restraints of such a shell.

On a more practical level, so long as the edge crest is round, any significant affect of the bump can be negated by removing excess external material from the roundover by ensuring it doesn't influence the head. This is a hand work multiple check & fit kind of deal, & in extreme cases, can have aesthetic implications.

In almost all cases, a realistic approach of flattening, then sensitive hand blending to mirror the original intended edge is the best way forward.

Co-planar I would think, only based on my experience.

Also on my experience, those bearing edges look suspiciously sharp for a vintage ludwig,

criz p. critter said:

It's hard to tell from the closeup of the edge if the wrap is tucked into the lap joint. Does it appear to you that it is? That's the way Ludwig used to do it. But I thought they had stopped that practice by the blue and white era. Maybe the toms are super-early B&O. Or maybe re-badged. What are the serial numbers?

Not answering your question here, just curious... I'm always curious about the myriad little inconsistencies in Ludwig's production history.

But hang loose for a bit. Someone with a wealth of Ludwig info will chime in soon.

Click to expand...

There are lots of inconsistensies in that era of Ludwig drum production,like for instance ...ply layup, construction,and badges used.There are clear interior ,Keystone badge kits out there.Some were maple/poplar/maple,some were mahogany/poplar /maple..

The famous Ludwig bump,or the practice of putting the wrap into the scarf joint ,was gradually phased out,going into the 70's.But you may still find some B/O badge earlt 70's drums,with that scarf /wrap joint,that were actually made in the late 60's,but badged later.

Some kits ,also came from the factory,with both keystone and B/O badges...on the same kit,with shells being made some time apart.Ludwig also made factory kits,with chrome and nickel hardware on the same kit,in the early 60's.

You can also find some early 70's Standard kits,with classic lugs,and not Standard lugs.

So,there is no one thing,that screams non Ludwig imposter,as these drums,were not aways consistant.The same can be said for the other big 3 as well,not just Ludwig.It's just that Ludwig sold more drums that any other drum maker,and was running 6 days a week,24 hours a day.

One must remember also,only Ludwig and Slingerland,made their own drum shells.Rogers,Gretsch and Camco,used shells made by Jasper and Keller.

Steve B

Thanks for the replies and input!

I saw another Steve Maxwell YouTube video of a drum tech who flattened the bearing edge on sandpaper attached to plywood, and only used his surface plate for reference. I guess that makes sense. You could easily screw up and sand out of flat on a dead flat sanding surface with bad technique and uneven pressure. I will take the thinly veiled marketing advice and minimize my encroachment, and focus on the hump area only.

I only know about vintage drums and bearing edges from the internet. Yes, these are somewhat sharper than I would have guessed. The thirteen inch tom is the same way. I will go take the top head off the floor tom and look at it, I guess it will also be the same. Not sure what to make of that. They look a bit shoddy in workmanship as I would expect, though. The edges are definitely original, and I am fairly certain they are what they appear to be. The dude I bought them from lives way outside of a really small southern Indiana town, not a drummer, and did not hard sell them at all. I got them pretty cheap after pointing out all the problems.

I should add that the scarf joint does not include the wrap on either rack tom. Mahogany, poplar, maple. Interestingly the poplar looks awfully dark to me.

Edit to add: Serial numbers- bass drum (22") 948940, Thirteen inch tom 949988, twelve inch tom and floor tom have no serial numbers on badge. The floor tom has the same relatively sharp bearing edge.

Next steps are to fill some cracks in the bearing edges and clean off the wrap before reattaching. Acetone did not touch the old adhesive. I am tempted to wick in some thin CA glue in the bearing edge cracks and be done with that part. I don't want to put too much time into these, just want to play them

Final edit: that is a year's supply of gluten-free alcohol for me right there!

sethlowden said:

I saw another Steve Maxwell YouTube video of a drum tech who flattened the bearing edge on sandpaper attached to plywood, and only used his surface plate for reference. I guess that makes sense. You could easily screw up and sand out of flat on a dead flat sanding surface with bad technique and uneven pressure. I will take the thinly veiled marketing advice and minimize my encroachment, and focus on the hump area only.

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For a pro shop, thinly veiled marketing advice is to never rely on on a sanding bed based on a piece of ply. Yes, bad technique/uneven pressure when using a totally flat surface can equate to a poor result, but if the sanding surface isn't even in the first place, everything else is trial & error, plus it makes the job harder than it needs to be.

If sanding on a questionably flat surface, it just means you need to proceed in smaller steps, & check progress very often. I guess there's an attitude to vintage edges that suggests acceptance of wider tolerances. That's fine, as it mirrors the general state of these instruments with respect to returning them to original condition, however, in a pro shop environment, it's an attitude I struggle with. In a hobby environment of course, it's a different matter. You use what you have to hand so long as you're confident in your own hand working skills. As long as there's a pretty flat surface to check results/progress, then all is good.

keep it simple said:

If sanding on a questionably flat surface, it just means you need to proceed in smaller steps, & check progress very often.

<snip>

In a hobby environment....You use what you have to hand so long as you're confident in your own hand working skills. As long as there's a pretty flat surface to check results/progress, then all is good.

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This, yes.

If I were doing it for pay, I would have a more precise setup. A slab that is truly checked for flatness (unlike the surplus countertop I use), etc.

As it is, I think I get pretty good results.

A couple of tricks that I've learned are first, if I have a high spot, focus on that a bit with a sanding block before I go to the final flattening process. This helps retain as much of the original material as possible, as I am not unnecessarily removing material opposite the high spot.

When sanding, I can get good results on a piece of veneer (hardwood) plywood. As long as it's at least 3/4" thick, it won't flex, and veneer plywood is usually pretty flat.

I also move the shell around while "bus driving" it, changing up where my hands are placed, etc. This prevents forcing unevenness into it.

Also, very little pressure. I just let the weight of the drum do most of the work. This prevents flexing of the shell and accompanying anomalies.

Finally, as kis said, check it often on your reference surface. And to help eliminate doubt about your reference surface, spin the shell around 90 degrees at a time and make sure that the high or low spots move with the rotation. If they stay in the same place on the slab, your slab is not right.

Starship Krupa said:

This, yes.

If I were doing it for pay, I would have a more precise setup. A slab that is truly checked for flatness (unlike the surplus countertop I use), etc.

As it is, I think I get pretty good results.

A couple of tricks that I've learned are first, if I have a high spot, focus on that a bit with a sanding block before I go to the final flattening process. This helps retain as much of the original material as possible, as I am not unnecessarily removing material opposite the high spot.

When sanding, I can get good results on a piece of veneer (hardwood) plywood. As long as it's at least 3/4" thick, it won't flex, and veneer plywood is usually pretty flat.

I also move the shell around while "bus driving" it, changing up where my hands are placed, etc. This prevents forcing unevenness into it.

Also, very little pressure. I just let the weight of the drum do most of the work. This prevents flexing of the shell and accompanying anomalies.

Finally, as kis said, check it often on your reference surface. And to help eliminate doubt about your reference surface, spin the shell around 90 degrees at a time and make sure that the high or low spots move with the rotation. If they stay in the same place on the slab, your slab is not right.

Click to expand...

This is all superb advice, well thought through, & achievable.

One point though, I find the "bus driving" technique to be less effective at achieving even results than moving the whole shell in a circular motion. Difficult to describe, but you can see the sanding paths taken on my 40" square sanding plate pictured below.

Here is my take as an owner of 50's/60's vintage kits from Slingerland, Gretsch, and Ludwig. Every vintage drum has its own personality. The imperfections that the craftsman put into the drum are what makes it real. Go with that thought process when you tune and play a vintage drum and you will love vintage drums.
Use the imperfection to your advantage.
No two vintage drums sound alike but almost all modern drums sound the same!
I love that about vintage drums

My advice; True the flatness of your edges on a sanding table and fine sand with a sponge sander. Clean them up so to speak.