Counting off a song

rogue_drummer

Gold Member
I need some advice. The information I get here will dictate how I respond to a growing problem I have in a church praise / gospel band. Here's the rub:

I did the usual school band programs and had private music lessons for about 4 years when I was much younger. Every group I played in, or saw, or heard, someone in the group counted off at least 4 beats to begin the song and let all the other band members know what the tempo was. From club cover bands to pro groups - someone - started the song by counting off at least 4 beats. I belive that was normal. Is it still?

Now we have a new leader in our gospel band who plays guitar and sings. My problem is this guy simply refuses to count any song off for the rest of us. There are 5 other musicians in this group: myself the drummer, two guitars, and two singers. Several times we've been thrown off by this guys simply starting the songs and not bothering to see if the rest of us are ready. I've even asked on several occasions for him to count us off - giving us 4 beats - simply because the drums and guitars start the song. The answer I get is "No - you'll be ok."

Well, hell, no we're not OK. I've missed coming in several times. So have the other players and singers. This is causing a lot of frustration with the other 4 muscians and it's really making me rethink if I even want to continue with this group. In other words, I'm getting more angry and frustrated as time goes on.

My question is: Is NOT counting off a group now considered normal? Am I missing something here? We rehearse for 2 hours one night a week - usually on Wednesday - then play Sunday.

Maybe the Rolling Stones may not need to count off, but this is an all volunteer, non-paid position.

Any information you all can share is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
 
To the best of my knowledge, it's still customary to count in.

Often what we'll do when there's a problem is to have the guitarist play the first four measures by himself as an intro before the rest of the band kicks in.

Otherwise, I think it's important to have all of the other players get on his case about it b/c it is ruining the performance.

Whatever you do, remain professional and resist the urge to throw your extra pair of sticks at the back of his head. ;-)
 
It's your duty as a drummer to set the tempo. This means counting in the songs you all start in unison.

Put this guy in his place!

Uh, yeah, this is not true at all, especially if you are in a worship band setting, where the worship leader usually establishes the tempo.

Counting in is becoming less and less common. You should still get SOME form of tempo, but the "one...two...three...four" is going out the window for sure. A lot of times it's a simple fill (from any instrument), or even just a hit from the drums, with the band expected to all come in together because they all know the tempo. Even when it is a unison start, it is less common for a full count in. Something like two taps of the foot or something may be all you get, but when it is a unison start, there has to be SOMETHING. If he's not giving you anything at all, I'd suggest having the whole band talk to him as a group. If he insists on not giving you a count-in, ask him why. He may have some good reason (although I'm damned if I can think of one right now, especially since you guys are having problems). If he still insists that he won't do it, without a real reason, then, as a band, tell him that you are all done working with him.
 
Most songs need some kind of musical cues if everyone playing plays on the down beat. He at least needs to be facing the band and give a downbeat cue by raising his guitar neck and dropping it on the down beat, but the key is everyone must make eye contact before he does it so he knows everyone is expecting it. In an orchestral setting the conductor does similar by tapping his wand to get attention then he raises it so everyone knows the downbeat is imminent. So long as everyone is solid with tempo, a traditional count off might not necessarily be needed. Again though, eye contact definitely is.

On a side note, one thing my guitarist likes to do is horse around between songs with a new riff he's never played before. We kind of free-form jam for a few bars getting progressively heavier until i do a distinct drum fill and everyone knows the next downbeat is the first note of the next song, so in a sense, we kind of improv our way around count offs some times.
 
Uh, yeah, this is not true at all, especially if you are in a worship band setting, where the worship leader usually establishes the tempo.

Sorry bro, the only thing I worship is the BEAT!

I agree though, the four count is going out of style - I'll usually only bust the one, two if I have to. The important thing is to make sure everyone is ready. Band chemistry doesn't hurt either.
 
Thanks for your kind imput, everyone. This information helps a bunch. It reveals what is still in vogue and where the trend is going, if that makes sense. At least now I can approach the problem with some amount of validity and make suggestions to our new "leader". Hopefully he will listen and accomodate - even if it's just giving a "one, two" count - at least that helps. Thanks again!
 
I've actually played w/ people like this - and am playing w/ a new one now. I prefer to count off so I know I've got the tempo right and the rest of the band will hit "1" when I do and will have internalized the tempo. It sounds like all of you are uncomfortable with this situation so why don't ALL of you speak up and insist that he does what the rest of the band wants?
 
I've had this problem before on two fronts.

In one case, the guitar player/singer didn't want the beginning of songs to start off with any cues and it was his gig, his music, etc.. The compromise came about with him agreeing to start songs that didn't have any tempo intro with a visual cue.

He would tap his left thumb on the back of his guitar neck, 1,2,3,4.

At least we avoided the whole "nobody jumps in at the right time" syndrome. We also avoided the clash of egos about his assumption that establishing the tempo means your in charge. It seems that many bandleaders have attended the Joseph Stalin Music School and won't tolerate anything that is a threat to their position.

In the other instance, I was playing with two very talented musicians, a bass and guitar player that had a revolving drum chair and were no longer used to a complete rythm section anymore. They would constantly huddle up to work out a section and ignore me. Also the guitar player would often wander in tempo.

In practice sessions, when our groove fell apart the two of them would always say that I wasn't keeping in time with them. Before we went our separate ways, I was beginning to develop a complex about it. I got so frustrated once, I barked back to them, that I was "keeping good time, you just need to play with me". It didn't go over well.

If ultimately, you want to keep this gig, speak to him by yourself.

He might go with providing a visual cue. Another suggestion that I learned from a band I was playing with is to count off with softly played bass drum hits. Just a light boom, boom boom boom actually sounds really good as a count-in.

Hope this helps.
 
The band-leader has the tempo, and he counts in or otherwise cues the band. And that's it!
 
I can't really say what's normal with groups that have a "band leader", worship or otherwise (and not including conductors), but in every band I've been in, if everyone comes in at once, I count it off. (I feel it's everyone's responsibility to have good time, but being the drummer, most people defer it to me.) If a song starts with an intro on some other instrument, then that person simply does it at the right tempo and we all come in when we're supposed to. If it starts with a drum intro that's any longer than a pickup back beat on "4", say for instance, sixteenth notes on the snare on beats 3 & 4 (3e&a4e&a), then I just do it just like other players' intros on the other instruments, and they come in when they're supposed to. A count-off isn't neccessary unless a song has a sudden start where more than one instrument comes in at the same time. Only on a few occasions have band members wanted me to set tempo on a song they begin alone.
 
The band-leader has the tempo, and he counts in or otherwise cues the band. And that's it!

Exactly!
What a pleasure to hear Sonny Rolins on the album Live At The Village Vanguard, counting in All The Things You Are. He just murmurs it but you can clearly hear it if you pump up the volume a bit.
The only exception is when the song has got a solo intro and then of course couting in isn't necessary. Better know when to start in this case because no fishing for the groove, time and tempo is allowed then...
 
My thanks to everyone for providing excellent advice on how to overcome this problem.

I emailed one of our guitar players who is much more experienced and knowledgeble in this sort of thing. He's a "musician's musician" in that he plays not only a very fine guitar and bass, but also is quite adapt at the piano, drums, and trombone. I provided the suggestions you all made here, in Drummerworld. Luckily he respects this forum a lot and has agreed to bring this subject up at our rehearsal on Wednesday. We both agreed that before this becomes a real issue, we need to speak up as a group and explain why we need the count off.

Thanks to everyone again!
 
Back
Top