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  #1  
Old 12-07-2011, 04:44 PM
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Default How do you feel about lug gaskets?

This is for those of you who have drums with lug gaskets, or want to put them on your drums. This is purely non-scientific, just seeing how everyone feels. Here are the scenarios:

They work and I like how they look

They work, I don't like the look, but I leave them on

They work, I don't like the look, and I remove them

They have no effect, but I like the look and leave them on

They have no effect, I don't like the look, but I leave them on

They have no effect, I don't like the look, and I remove them

They hurt the sound, but I like the look and leave them on

They hurt the sound, I don't like the look, but I leave them on

They hurt the sound, I don't like the look, and I remove them

My lugs didn't originally have them, but I want or installed them


Which applies to you?

Bermuda
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  #2  
Old 12-07-2011, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

I don't have any drums that have lug gaskets, but if I did and they hurt the sound, I would remove them. I would not remove them for purely cosmetic reasons, though...

EDIT - when I read this at first, I was only thinking of snare drums, but I do indeed have drums with gaskets - my Classic Maples. Doh!

So, I will say they have no effect, I don't mind how they look, so I leave them on.

Last edited by IDDrummer; 12-08-2011 at 01:33 AM. Reason: Update
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  #3  
Old 12-07-2011, 04:55 PM
ddrumman2004 ddrumman2004 is offline
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

You forgot...."No opinion".....LOL!

My Pearl Masters came with lug gaskets and I have no idea if they work for their intended purpose or not. They are not ugly or obtrusive by any means either.

I do think they protect the shells as I have removed the lugs from my 1960 Ludwig Pioneer snare to clean everything and there are outlines of the lugs embedded in the shell.
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  #4  
Old 12-07-2011, 04:57 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

On wood drums

They work, I don't mind the look, so I leave them on

On Chromed metal snares with chrome lugs, like Supras

I hate the look. if they do anything, they hurt the sound. I will remove them.

On other metal drums

It depends.
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  #5  
Old 12-07-2011, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

I leave them on my wood shells. I took them off of the only brass shell I have and really havent noticed any tonal difference and will put them back on so that I don't lose them and if I wish to sell the drum ever.
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  #6  
Old 12-07-2011, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

I can't tell whether they work because I don't know what they are supposed to do. Can someone enlighten me.
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  #7  
Old 12-07-2011, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

I'll choose "They work and I like how they look" option from your list, as I believe they're protecting the shells on my drumkit (maple shells, including the snare drum), now for me the look doesn't matter as I have a "piano black" laquer finish on my kit and the gaskets are black, so they don't show, you'll have to look closely to the shells to see them.
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  #8  
Old 12-07-2011, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

They do protect a lacquered finished drum from getting marked with the outline of the lug.

I also think they give a more solid-well built-expensive look on a kit.

And finally, a shell vibrates. If something solid is attached to it (lug), it should vibrate sympathetically too. Now, if you put something soft like rubber between the two, I believe the rubber would absorbe some of the energy, making the lug vibrate less than the shell, and that's a good thing. (Pure theory, I don't know if this actually works this way).

Anyway, I favour lug gaskets. ;)

Cheers.
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  #9  
Old 12-07-2011, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

I've actually added them on a kit I just got --- I think they protect the finish and they don't seem to hurt the sound (at least to my ear)... the kit I added them to is just a sparkle wrap finish -- I think it protects the finish (whatever it happens to be) and I kinda like the looks of 'em

Mike
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  #10  
Old 12-07-2011, 05:56 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

All Zickos drums come with acrylic gaskets inside and out along with a full metal back up plate (not washers). They also have acrylic sleeves on the bolts that go through the shell. No metal touches the shell anywhere. The idea at the time was to let the shell vibrate more with the heads. I'm not sure if anyone else was doing this in the 1970's. I think Bill Zickos was ahead of his time.

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I can't tell you if they work or not as I have not tried them without the gaskets, but the drums have a big, resonant sound and, being acrylic, you hardly see them, so appearance is not really a factor.
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  #11  
Old 12-07-2011, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by diegobxr View Post
And finally, a shell vibrates. If something solid is attached to it (lug), it should vibrate sympathetically too. Now, if you put something soft like rubber between the two, I believe the rubber would absorbe some of the energy, making the lug vibrate less than the shell, and that's a good thing. (Pure theory, I don't know if this actually works this way).
But doesn't the rubber gasket also act as a dampening factor, inhibiting the shell's vibration?

Bermuda
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  #12  
Old 12-07-2011, 06:29 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
But doesn't the rubber gasket also act as a dampening factor, inhibiting the shell's vibration?

Bermuda
+1..thats what I think also.If you put moongel/gaff tape/zero rings ect.,on a drum head,considereing the small area they impact,have a great effect on the vibration of a drum head.I know a drum head is much thinner that a shell,but there must me some kind of muffeling effect

So,given how much area a lug gasket takes ,say maybe 10%(this is just a wild guess,I didn't do the math),there has to be some of the same effect taking place.I would think more on a metal shell,than a thicker wooden one.Just my 2 cents.

Steve B
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  #13  
Old 12-07-2011, 07:07 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
This is purely non-scientific, just seeing how everyone feels.

Bermuda
Through painstaking A - B testing, I know exactly how gaskets affect drums, & I'd have to reveal the science, & that would ruin the thread. I am super interested in the range of theories though :)

Some posts are close in principal, but there's a bunch of conditions & caveats.
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  #14  
Old 12-07-2011, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

In my mind, you would ideally have a freely vibrating head and shell assembly and a perfectly rigid assembly of lugs, tension rods, and hoops that are completely isolated from each other. Thats why you see a bunch of people trying to perfect the free-floating thing. Vibrating lugs, tension rods, and hoops can theoretically jack with tuning; plus the added mass diminishes the resonance capabilities of the head/shell, which is no bueno. Gaskets help isolate the lugs from the shell to better reach that goal of a rigid tuning assembly.
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  #15  
Old 12-07-2011, 09:14 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

For the purposes of complying with the guidelines of the survey, I'll answer:

They work and I like how they look

But the real answer is: I'm not sure what effect they have, but the idea of having the metal lug come directly in contact with the shell is so unappealing to me that I leave them on and don't even bother to do the comparisons that might reveal I'm missing out on a better sound.

How's that? :)
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  #16  
Old 12-07-2011, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

I don't mind how they look in principal, and if it's a wood drum, I probably wouldn't bother, but if it's a thinner shelled metal snare drum (not cast) I would remove them for fear that they'd noticeably dampen the shell.

I don't care for the tacky look of rubber, though. A felt-y material seems classier with less potential for dampening the shell and dry-cracking with age.
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  #17  
Old 12-07-2011, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

It is actually confusing what there real purpose is. My Saturns have a thin black nylon gasket behind the lugs, which I think just helps to protect the shells. The new Black Panther drums have a rubber gasket behind the new lugs. My Black Beauty has thick round rubber gaskets behind the tube lug mounting locations which I think were put there recently to get rid of the dreaded tension rod splay the older ones suffered from.

My thought was that the rubber gaskets on drums helped to isolate the lug,rod,and hoop from the shell. Some of you are saying that the rubber will dampen the shell. I think we need an expert. :)
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  #18  
Old 12-07-2011, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Through painstaking A - B testing, I know exactly how gaskets affect drums, & I'd have to reveal the science, & that would ruin the thread. I am super interested in the range of theories though :)

Some posts are close in principal, but there's a bunch of conditions & caveats.
Oh, c'mon man!! Don't be like that!!!

Maybe after post #25 you can tell us? ;)
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  #19  
Old 12-07-2011, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
But doesn't the rubber gasket also act as a dampening factor, inhibiting the shell's vibration?

Bermuda
Well, it could be.. I don't know.. My reasoning comes from stuff like putting rubber under studio monitors to stop rattling, or under vibrating machines.. or like floating floors or floor toms.

For instance, I put little pieces of foam under my floor tom legs, and to my humble ear, there is a noticeable difference. The shell sounds and feels more "free" and resonant than just laying on the hard floor.

Anyway, I may be wrong. I'll wait 'til Andy gives us his insight.

Cheers!
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  #20  
Old 12-07-2011, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

Visually:

I can't say they're noticeable. I've never heard one comment over the years about someone saying the noticed the gasket or not, unless either it was pointed out to them, or the drum is being dis-assembled/assumed for repairs. They are pretty small and unobtrusive to the eye.

Sound:
I'm sure if you had two kits that were equal in every way (size, heads, tuning) in the same room, with the only variable being the gaskets on or off, I would hear a difference.

But in the grand scheme of things, I can't imagine the difference is significant. The room, head selection, tuning, shell design and mounting are going to make a greater impact on the drum tone than the gasket itself.
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  #21  
Old 12-07-2011, 10:42 PM
tamadrm tamadrm is offline
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

Sorry Bermuda,I never really answered your question.I think if the intent is to keep the shell from getting damaged,then they work,and I'll leave them on.

Steve B
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  #22  
Old 12-07-2011, 11:11 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

i want them on any painted finish, wrapped or metal i dont see the point
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  #23  
Old 12-07-2011, 11:48 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

I dont have lugs so I have no need for gaskets...lol
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  #24  
Old 12-08-2011, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Through painstaking A - B testing, I know exactly how gaskets affect drums, & I'd have to reveal the science
What I meant was, my question wasn't meant to be scientific, and the info won't be used for anything. I'm just curious. I have some very definite opinions about what gaskets do, don't do, and people's perceptions of them. I just wanted to get some other perspectives.

It's interesting so far though, I hadn't even considered the shell protection factor. Since the lug is presumable always attached, does it even matter what goes on underneath? :)

Bermuda
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  #25  
Old 12-08-2011, 01:21 AM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
But doesn't the rubber gasket also act as a dampening factor, inhibiting the shell's vibration?

Bermuda
I think it would make absolutely no difference. The shell is going to vibrate anyway and the gasket would reduce the amount of vibration coming from the lug, which would also be inaudible. I think the main advantage is protecting the shells from imprinting.
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  #26  
Old 12-08-2011, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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I think it would make absolutely no difference. The shell is going to vibrate anyway and the gasket would reduce the amount of vibration coming from the lug, which would also be inaudible. I think the main advantage is protecting the shells from imprinting.
I don't know - there are quite a few people who say they CAN hear a difference on the Ludwig LM402s, and that the rubber gaskets do indeed muffle things. I have not personally tested this, since I don't have a snare with the gaskets.

I always figured protecting the shell was the only purpose of the gasket, but who knows what the manufacturers are thinking? I have noticed on the newer Ludwig snares, when the gaskets are removed there is a gap beneath lugs at the center bead. Older snares do not have the gasket or the gap, so they have changed SOMETHING...
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  #27  
Old 12-08-2011, 02:58 AM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

they work, don't like or dislike the look, and i leave them on (my lacquered drums, didn't know if my catalinas have them, but don't care, 'cause the shells are wrapped). i tried removing them and there was a metallic buzzing when the drum what hit at a certain volume. put them back on.
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  #28  
Old 12-08-2011, 03:48 AM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

I find the lug gaskets I have tried far to rigid and thin in relation to the lug.

I even tried using them as lock controllers for stand joints....and found the same thing.

You buisness men out there...design, produce and market a gasket that fits most major screw/nut needs on a drumset, increase the elasticity and basic mass, and you will find a niche.

I suggest starting with a gel with a highly resistant surface tension to force distribution...maybe with some higher density infused content to increase resistance to compression....metal shavings?? micro beads with calibrated compression ratios?


Sorry...this isnt a materials science site...lol
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  #29  
Old 12-08-2011, 03:49 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

Got black gaskets on my 2011 silver CM and LM402 and I like the look on the CM because of the the line they draw between the silver finish and lugs also Ludwig has the black bass drum hoops so it works out. I dont really like them on my LM402 because it makes it look modern / cheap and thats the total opposite from what a LM402 should be. But I gues, dont have the balls to put a screwdriver to my new snare :(
I think with or without them the lugs and shells could just be seen as one object and will vibrate as one. I think the lugs are screwed on so tight that the few mm of rubber between the wood and metal will be solid aswell and vibrate the same. As for the gaskets covering parts of the shells with rubber this will dampen the shell but the overall surface covered on the big thick wooden drum is to small. On a smaller thinner metal snare I could see that making a bigger sound difference and maybe even noticeable.

I reckon DW has some numbers on this with all the science they got. Which worries me because I think they dont use them. I like Ludwig better but I dont seem them using computers to measure the difference and think there reasoning is something else.
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  #30  
Old 12-08-2011, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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Originally Posted by HoM3R View Post

I think with or without them the lugs and shells could just be seen as one object and will vibrate as one. I think the lugs are screwed on so tight that the few mm of rubber between the wood and metal will be solid aswell and vibrate the same. As for the gaskets covering parts of the shells with rubber this will dampen the shell but the overall surface covered on the big thick wooden drum is to small. On a smaller thinner metal snare I could see that making a bigger sound difference and maybe even noticeable.
Way to go HoM3R, we have a winner!!! 100% correct = great :)

I'll expand on that: Gaskets would only offer some degree of lug isolation if the lug was suspended completely by the rubber, & the contact area was pinpoint minimal. When the lug is screwed firmly to the shell (& structurally, this is necessary), the shell & lug become as one. Sonically, the gasket brings absolutely nothing to the party. There's no downside either on thick shelled drums. On thin shelled drums, the negative affect on shell resonance is proportionate to the increase in mass offered by the gasket, in a linear relationship to the combined mass of lug, screw, & gasket with the shell. In simple terms, very little difference, with the exception of ultra thin shells, & even then, minimal. Any manufacturers claims about a gasket offering meaningful isolation of the lug, is BS.

I completely agree with the gasket's value in protecting lacquered finishes. It reduces point loading, thus lessening the potential for cracking of the decorative finish.

As a general bit of background. No matter how much you try to isolate lugs from the shell, they're still going to have to vibrate in sympathy with the whole drum construction at some point. A good portion of the vibration at the sustain stage of resonance is transferred via the hoop, through the tension screws, & into the lug. So, even on a totally free floating design, lug/tensioning ring/whatever mass makes a difference once you get past the attack stage of the play cycle. I call that secondary resonance. Primary resonance being the shell excited by direct transfer through bearing edge contact and sympathetic means through pressure waves. How you attach a lug to the shell dictates whether the lug affects the primary resonance or secondary resonance, each resulting in a very different outcome.
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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Originally Posted by drumfreak1987 View Post
they work, don't like or dislike the look, and i leave them on (my lacquered drums, didn't know if my catalinas have them, but don't care, 'cause the shells are wrapped). i tried removing them and there was a metallic buzzing when the drum what hit at a certain volume. put them back on.
the buzzing was likely the spring inside the lug. That's why lugs on better quality drums are packed (with foam or cotton wool or even cardboard). I guess a rubber gasket would stop the buzz as well. And if it also had the effect of preventing the cracking of a brittle finish then OK fit gaskets (esp. in light of what Andy says about the non-effect on sound and resonance).
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  #32  
Old 12-08-2011, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
But doesn't the rubber gasket also act as a dampening factor, inhibiting the shell's vibration?

Bermuda
If you get two drummers together, you have three different opinions.

IMH, the gaskets would have less of a dampening effect than metal lugs and washers/back up plates clamped directly to the shell, however, I have no direct evidence of this. I guess the only real answer is "Tard's" free floating shells. And are they really practical on large drums? I would think that they would make it such a pain to change heads. Never seen them up close so I don't really know.
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  #33  
Old 12-08-2011, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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Originally Posted by IDDrummer View Post
I don't know - there are quite a few people who say they CAN hear a difference on the Ludwig LM402s, and that the rubber gaskets do indeed muffle things. I have not personally tested this, since I don't have a snare with the gaskets.

I always figured protecting the shell was the only purpose of the gasket, but who knows what the manufacturers are thinking? I have noticed on the newer Ludwig snares, when the gaskets are removed there is a gap beneath lugs at the center bead. Older snares do not have the gasket or the gap, so they have changed SOMETHING...
I think the real issue is the amount of hardware mass hanging off of the shell and touching the shell. More gaskets, larger lugs, etc., will affect the resonance of the shell just because of the increased mass. DW hardware is insanely huge and I know that must affect the sound.

I use single-point tube lugs, the ultimate in small footprint. That leaves no room for the manufacturer's logo stamped into the lug (DW) but that's fine with me. The tradeoff is they're more fragile and subject to getting bent in transit so I use hard cases.
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  #34  
Old 12-08-2011, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Way to go HoM3R, we have a winner!!! 100% correct = great :)

I'll expand on that: Gaskets would only offer some degree of lug isolation if the lug was suspended completely by the rubber, & the contact area was pinpoint minimal. When the lug is screwed firmly to the shell (& structurally, this is necessary), the shell & lug become as one. Sonically, the gasket brings absolutely nothing to the party. There's no downside either on thick shelled drums. On thin shelled drums, the negative affect on shell resonance is proportionate to the increase in mass offered by the gasket, in a linear relationship to the combined mass of lug, screw, & gasket with the shell. In simple terms, very little difference, with the exception of ultra thin shells, & even then, minimal. Any manufacturers claims about a gasket offering meaningful isolation of the lug, is BS.

I completely agree with the gasket's value in protecting lacquered finishes. It reduces point loading, thus lessening the potential for cracking of the decorative finish.

.
I can't say I've ever had a manufacture tell me their lug gaskets were there for isolation.

I have always been under the impression they were there to protect the shell.
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  #35  
Old 12-08-2011, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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Originally Posted by bermuda View Post
It's interesting so far though, I hadn't even considered the shell protection factor. Since the lug is presumable always attached, does it even matter what goes on underneath...
Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
I completely agree with the gasket's value in protecting lacquered finishes. It reduces point loading, thus lessening the potential for cracking of the decorative finish.
Well Jon & Andy, in the 80's I removed one piece double lugs on 2 bass drums and replaced them with "normal" lugs, ie: one lug either sides (batter & resonance) of the drum.

When I removed the double lugs from the shells, the gaskets has done its purpose, the laquer underneath the lugs/gaskets was immaculate, like if it never had anything on it, except the four holes for the screws of course.
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
I can't say I've ever had a manufacture tell me their lug gaskets were there for isolation.

I have always been under the impression they were there to protect the shell.
This is a quote from a 1973 brochure from Zickos and reprinted from"Musical Merchandise Review" May 1973:

"At every point where hardware would be in direct contact with either the plastic head or shell, a plastic 'buffer' (of soft vinyl) in the form of a fitted or shaped washer, sleeve, or gasket separates or forestalls this would-be contact. This buffering further insures that the vibrating wave lengths, which are equalized throughout the head and the shell, run no risks of even minimal distortion through direct contact with even the smallest piece of metal hardware, such as a bolt, pin, lug, etc."
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

I like how they look and they also serve a practical purpose: protecting the finish and (allegedly) allowing the shell to resonate more, since the hard metal hardware is buffered from the shell. Whether or not they work, is debatable.

On most shells I don't think they hurt or help the sound in any measurable way.

On really thin metal shells, it's detrimental to the sound, since the shell *is* thin and sensitive enough to suffer under additional weight. I'm 100% sure of this, myself, since I've tested it on a couple of Ludwig snares now. On my Black Beauty, removing the thick rubber gaskets and using tube lugs *audibly* changed the drum. The naked ear could detect the difference. I've compared two LM402 Supras...mine with thick rubber gaskets, and another with the same imperial lugs w/ no gaskets - the non-gasket drum sounds better, IMO.
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Old 12-08-2011, 10:57 PM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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I guess the only real answer is "Tard's" free floating shells. And are they really practical on large drums? I would think that they would make it such a pain to change heads. Never seen them up close so I don't really know.
They are not really free floating in the sense of a pearl free floating snare or a sleishman drum. They have a bridge attached to each end of the shell which takes all the tension of the head as well as the mount and allows the shell to resonate freely without any stress from the metal lugs, mounts or holes to color, change and or distort the natural sound created by the wood shell as it vibrates. As for changing heads there is no difference than regular drums with lugs.
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Old 12-09-2011, 01:54 AM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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They are not really free floating in the sense of a pearl free floating snare or a sleishman drum. They have a bridge attached to each end of the shell which takes all the tension of the head as well as the mount and allows the shell to resonate freely without any stress from the metal lugs, mounts or holes to color, change and or distort the natural sound created by the wood shell as it vibrates. As for changing heads there is no difference than regular drums with lugs.
Do you haves pics or can you refer a web site?
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Old 12-09-2011, 03:24 AM
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Default Re: How do you feel about lug gaskets?

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Do you haves pics or can you refer a web site?
Here are a couple shots of mine and a link to the facebook owners group page, there are lots more pics there of all 3 series that were available.




http://www.facebook.com/groups/22647984016/photos/
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