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  #41  
Old 06-09-2014, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

Like Anon, I really do feel for all kids ref the world's population and environmental issues.
(the projection is already that there will be no coral reefs or coral by year 2100 wordwide!)

For those born just in time to fight WW2 or in my case be drafted into the VietNam War
(you were offered a choice then of 1. going into the armed forces 2. going to college and staying there until the war was over...I had no money 3. going to jail 4. leaving the country
forever)....well, I fought in that &$%# war and it has taken a lifetime to try and get completely
over it...it ruined my life in many ways....so on that count..I feel like ALL kids who aren't
forced with those choices at a young age are very fortunate if they are in a place where they
are clothed, fed, educated etc.

Growing up in the late 40's, 50's, 60's....we didn't have as much diversion in entertainment.
As kids we went outdoors and made up games, climbed trees etc. Some families had a tv
set by the 1950's. Since tv was new to us as kids, we always preferred going outside to play given a choice of watching or doing. The radio was the big thing....tune across the am dial you would hear a variety of music ranging from classical, opera, jazz, country, blues, bluegrass, early rock, gospel, you name it.....a variety of a lot of good music. At the barber shop on Saturday, the barbers would sing the operas along with the radio (hey, I wasn't in NYC....I was in the midwest US and this went on.....you know, flyover states)
Most people didn't have air conditioning...in fact I think no one did. That was something
a bowling alley might have. So live entertainment was about it if you wanted to go out
and do something with friends and didn't want to bowl or play cards. In those regards, I
think I was lucky to have been born into that.....being excited about the yearly changes in rock, jazz, blues...you name it....what was Miles going to do next and what was Zappa up to! The 30's through the 60's was a time of high culture in the US and worldwide change.
While there is a lot of incredible stuff going on today, it does seem that the culture has been "dumbed down" in my lifetime.....maybe all oldies feel that way....not sure.

Ref will drums be around.....Einstein said that he wasn't sure how the next World War would be fought but he knew the one after that would be fought with Sticks and Stones...
there will be drums!

So, yes drums are here to stay and I don't feel sorry for today's kids. The internet offers incredible access to so much....I wish it had been around when I was young. I can't begin
to tell you how much I have learned from others on the net.

An aside about the population....in the 1950's in public school in the US we were shown
charts predicting resources and population and were taught that families should consider having two children max going forward and THAT THE ULTIMATE CONTRIBUTION WOULD BE TO HAVE NO KIDS AT ALL. I know very many women from my generation that wanted to have children (some adopted them) but now in there mid 60's to 70 are
angry that so many youngsters that came along behind us don't seem to even give this a thought. I know a lot of people in their late 20's and 30's having 5 kids and can't even afford
to have two. This overpopulation thing is huge as well as the environmental concerns and
people need to pay attention.

Thanks for letting me answer and rant!
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  #42  
Old 06-09-2014, 07:18 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

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Internet.
I have posted on boards, and said "I like this, this and this, does anyone have recommendations on similar bands" and I'll get 20 - 30 bands, which I can then go and sample online and from there decide which albums to buy.
As I mentioned, websites like this one show me some new music. As a matter of fact, a thread that Mad started showed me a link to a decent trio, and I made a purchase this morning.

But, there does not seem to be a place to go to listen to music and then when you hear something you like, you can purchase it.

Perhaps, this may also be one of the problems the music industry has not solved.
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  #43  
Old 06-09-2014, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

The thing lacking the most today vs 30-40 years ago are the playing opportunities in both public school bands (budgets get slashed-the arts take the hit) and the nightclub scene which offered live bands in almost any town in the country.

It's almost as if people are going to learn how to play an instrument with a band only after they have learned from electronic media how it once sounded. Yes, we once listened to our favorite records of bands and tried to emulate them but it was also in companion with live application.

I'm glad I only play for the fun of it these days ( the original reason,no?) compared to folks who have to play to eat.
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  #44  
Old 06-10-2014, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

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Why is that an issue precisely?
Its an issue if you are a drummer, or you like to watch and listen to a drummer, live.
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  #45  
Old 06-10-2014, 04:36 PM
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Its an issue if you are a drummer, or you like to watch and listen to a drummer, live.
I would only say the latter, that's a matter of preference - not issue.

I just don't understand why drummers as a group are so resistant to drum machines and the like. The same skill that one develops as a drummer can be translated into programming drum machines.

I look at computers and drum machines as tools. They can be used badly or they can be used well. Just as there are good drummers and poor drummers, there are good programmers and bad programmers. It takes skill to program a drum machine effectively and creatively.

I really think a lot of drummers are just incredibly closed-minded when it comes to drum machines.
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  #46  
Old 06-10-2014, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

As far as musical abilities go: there are some amazing musicians out there now, and percussion is taken as a serious track in educational institutions. Great to see the younger generation working in improved pedagogical conditions (even if there will be no gigs for them once they graduate).
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  #47  
Old 06-10-2014, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

I feel sorry for today's kids because most of them, by and large, are so damn unoriginal. Where is their counter-culture? What have they done that is different? Not much that I can see. These days, the world seems to encourage complacency and reward mediocrity.
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  #48  
Old 06-10-2014, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

The margin between wage and cost of living is far smaller today.

I hear stories from people who said they could work for min wage through the summer then pursue music fulltime through the rest of the year...but they had to live in low rent situations and scrape by for food.

Cannot do that now...can barely survive in low rent situations now on min wage working full time year round.
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  #49  
Old 06-10-2014, 08:29 PM
AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken is offline
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

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I feel sorry for young people for coming into a world with huge population and environmental issues.
Oh, dear. It's like you only have one setting.

Most of the Western world is actually in population decline (look at Japan/Europe birth rates).

And 'environmental issues'? The environment has never been cleaner. I recently read a story from the 70s about pollution from the mills in Tennessee. People had to change their shirts during the day because they became stained from air pollution. Lakes caught fire from pollution. That's all in the past.

Sometimes it seems like, when you need causes, you can never be satisfied with victory.
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  #50  
Old 06-10-2014, 08:37 PM
AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken AllTheCoolNamesAreTaken is offline
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I think you're definitely overgeneralizing things here. It's all about where you're listening to music. If it's on the radio, all you'll hear is pop and such (usually; it's POPular for a reason).
A lot of people echo this sentiment, so I'll just address the original.

Put simply, I don't think what you're saying is true.

I frequently hear the argument "Oh, if you listen to the radio/TV/etc you're going to hear pop, and pop always sucks." But that's just not true. All of the music we revere from the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc ... that was all POPULAR. Popular music was good music. This was true all the way back to the classical era: composers like Mozart were pop celebrities.

Now pop music is Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga, etc.

The idea of pop music being entirely throwaway bubblegum trash is relatively new. Yes, throwaway bubblegum trash songs existed and were popular during what I consider the golden years of pop music, but they weren't ALL that existed, and quite frequently they weren't as popular as complex and challenging songs.

So simply by comparing popular music now vs. that from only a few decades ago, there is an objective, measurable decline in quality.

I do agree that if you look you can find good music ... but I disagree that it's easier now than ever, or even that widespread. I would love to be proven wrong and find some cache of great bands nobody has ever heard of ... but it actually is kind of a nonsensical argument. We live in an very connected age. If a band is good, the word gets out, they become successful.

And I realize whenever someone criticizes modern anything, they're either dismissed as an old grump or being out of touch ... but I'm including my own generation in this criticism. And I would argue that one of the bigger reasons we saw such a decline in music quality was the rise of the music video, and the continued dominance of the visual as the main art form.

Some of this debate definitely boils down to taste, but some is pretty objectively verifiable. Take the top ten songs from this week and compare them with the top ten from 1969. If you say that you think they are even in the same universe, I wonder if you're being truly honest.
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  #51  
Old 06-10-2014, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

As a 17 year old, no I don't feel sorry for myself.

I'm fortunate enough to have had wonderful parents who have influenced my love for music by introducing me to a variety of bands and genres.

From a young age, I already had an appreciation for all types of music.. Beginning with the classic rock my parents fed me as a child, and not the coroporate pop (which BTW isn't all THAT bad) fed to others my age, I've grown to truly have an appreciation for almost all types of music. I love jazz, rock, country, alternative, indie...

There are still talented bands out there if you know where to look!

But that being said, I do feel sorry for others of my generation. I'm lucky enough to have been blssed with a certain musical maturity that has given me a widespread love for all types of music.. But i feel that the vast amount of kids my age are suckered into rap, hip hop, and the stupid pop of the modern age. Most of my friends have a superficial love for these (in my opionion) artificial genres that, while they potentially have their place at parties or in the gym, are simply musically shallow and almost fake.

As far as jobs go, I feel maybe a bit concerned in this regard... It does seem to me that there are less and less jobs for drummers compared to my father's time (70's/80's)... But I suppose that just means I have to become the best of the best through hard work and dedication if i want to make my life out of music.

But generally, I do enjoy being a teen/kid in this changing industry :) It is quite easy to find new music and there is so much to listen to and observe and learn from online.. also, many of newer alternative/indie bands, though possibly overplayed on the radio, are at times creative and musically talented as well
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  #52  
Old 06-10-2014, 10:44 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

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...
And 'environmental issues'? The environment has never been cleaner. I recently read a story from the 70s about pollution from the mills in Tennessee. People had to change their shirts during the day because they became stained from air pollution. Lakes caught fire from pollution. That's all in the past...
I don't see the problem...there's no hole in my side of the boat.

Here in Australia there is talk/plans of letting mines spew their waste products into the Great Barrier Reef.

If polar ice continues to melt at current and projected levels, the Maldives will disappear beneath the ocean. Sidestepping the man-made climate change vs. natural cycle of climate change debate, this is and environmental issue, and one which the Maldives government takes sufficiently seriously that they are scouting for possible places to relocate the population to.
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  #53  
Old 06-10-2014, 11:03 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

I feel sorry for anyone who didn't grow up with soul music or Jimi Hendrix.
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  #54  
Old 06-10-2014, 11:50 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

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As a 17 year old, no I don't feel sorry for myself.
Nor should you. There is a lot happenin' these days. The 60's were cool, the space race etc... but there was a lot of turmoil in the 60's. Most of us were just kids playing ball, strumming crappy guitars and playing drums on "swap shop" drums (i.e. junk shops) or empty cardboard boxes (5 gallon plastic buckets hadn't been invented yet).

Heck my first drum was a drum pad and lessons and I wanted to play drums soooo bad that my pops took me up to the local drum corp and signed me up. Marched by butt off and played drums.

Churches didn't even have bands that you could get a bit of gig time in. They had little blueheaded ladies playing out of tune upright pianos, or Hammond B3's with rotary speakers... yeah... walk on in at 16 with a "can I play" look on your face and you'd be sent downstairs to the kids choir to learn solfeggio...

You young un's today got technology, good affordable equipment and parents who actually have some disposable income... that wasn't the case so much if you were growing up in the 60's...

BUT.... we had a lot fewer distractions in the 60's... distractions kill focus, kills attention spans, kills the impetus for devotion to an instrument... Distractions are going to reduce and/or hamper the effectiveness of future generations.

That said... we didn't have tools like YouTube to help figure songs out.
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  #55  
Old 06-10-2014, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

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As a 17 year old ...
Just wanted to thank you for your valuable, thoughtful perspective.
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  #56  
Old 06-11-2014, 12:06 AM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

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. But i feel that the vast amount of kids my age are suckered into rap, hip hop, and the stupid pop of the modern age. Most of my friends have a superficial love for these (in my opionion) artificial genres that, while they potentially have their place at parties or in the gym, are simply musically shallow and almost fake.l
To an extent, that is most people's high school experience.

Since recorded music became available, stupid pop has always been made for and bought by the young masses. I don't think listening to dumb pop of toady is much different than Debbie Gibson, Tiffany or New Kids on the Block of the 80's, or David Cassidy and Leif Garrett or the 70's, or even say Pat Boone of the 50's and early 60's.

People who don't play music, or do not have a high appreciation of music often get sucked into listening to whatever is trendy.

But I do like your post. Thank you for your perspective.
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  #57  
Old 06-11-2014, 02:15 AM
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I would only say the latter, that's a matter of preference - not issue.

I just don't understand why drummers as a group are so resistant to drum machines and the like. The same skill that one develops as a drummer can be translated into programming drum machines.

I look at computers and drum machines as tools. They can be used badly or they can be used well. Just as there are good drummers and poor drummers, there are good programmers and bad programmers. It takes skill to program a drum machine effectively and creatively.

I really think a lot of drummers are just incredibly closed-minded when it comes to drum machines.

A drummer and drum machine are about alike as pizza and dark chocolate. Both are food, one is gross. A drum machine does only the superficial thing a drummer does, which is keep steady (in this case, coldly steady) time. Music with heart and interactive playfulness - out the window.
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  #58  
Old 06-11-2014, 02:45 AM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

I feel sorry for today's kids because they have to learn from the previous generation.
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  #59  
Old 06-11-2014, 05:35 AM
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I feel sorry for today's kids because they have to learn from the previous generation.
That would be people born in the mid 80's
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  #60  
Old 06-11-2014, 05:38 AM
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Just wanted to thank you for your valuable, thoughtful perspective.
hmmmm, you sounding a little agistic there ol' Nancy?
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  #61  
Old 06-11-2014, 06:48 AM
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I just don't understand why drummers as a group are so resistant to drum machines and the like. The same skill that one develops as a drummer can be translated into programming drum machines.

I really think a lot of drummers are just incredibly closed-minded when it comes to drum machines.
It also ignores the obvious opportunity. Hip hop and electronica may use drum machines for their beats, but drum machines can't improv and don't have feel.

Look at drummers like Jojo Mayer and Chris Dave, two drummers who have deconstructed drum machine beats from electronica and hip hop respectively and turned it into an entire new genre of drumming. One where you can improv, jam, and change it up on the fly in ways no drum machine ever could.

This is why I think kids today have an awesome opportunity. While us old farts complain about how machines have taken over our craft, these kids are out there one-upping the machines and adding in something that those same machines simply cannot do. That's a positive!
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  #62  
Old 06-11-2014, 06:48 AM
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hmmmm, you sounding a little agistic there ol' Nancy?
Nope, I've said similar to old farts like you.
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Old 06-11-2014, 07:04 AM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

I guess it depends in what your listening to. If it's the" popular" music on the those certain radio stations, then I would agree with you. But lately, I have been getting more into the indie and alternative scene, and I would say that I don't feel sorry for myself or others in my generation (those born in the early 90s). Take a look elsewhere and you will see that music is still good and unadulterated by autotune.
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Old 06-11-2014, 07:31 AM
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I would only say the latter, that's a matter of preference - not issue.

I just don't understand why drummers as a group are so resistant to drum machines and the like. The same skill that one develops as a drummer can be translated into programming drum machines.

I look at computers and drum machines as tools. They can be used badly or they can be used well. Just as there are good drummers and poor drummers, there are good programmers and bad programmers. It takes skill to program a drum machine effectively and creatively.

I really think a lot of drummers are just incredibly closed-minded when it comes to drum machines.
I agree completely. a drum machine does a thing that a human cannot necessarily do. Humans do things that a drum machine cannot necessarily do. Why pit the two against each other? I think it's really cool to hear music that features both human and computer elements. The internal tension that a live drummer can create against a drum machine is an extremely interesting element. Radiohead has done some very interesting things in that regard.

Also, many pop/hip hop groups that use drum machines in the studio have live drummers that tour with them.

Even so, shouldn't it be the artists choice weather they have a drummer or not? Why force every artist to use the same tool set?
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: Do you feel sorry for today's kids?

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I would only say the latter, that's a matter of preference - not issue.

I just don't understand why drummers as a group are so resistant to drum machines and the like. The same skill that one develops as a drummer can be translated into programming drum machines.

I look at computers and drum machines as tools. They can be used badly or they can be used well. Just as there are good drummers and poor drummers, there are good programmers and bad programmers. It takes skill to program a drum machine effectively and creatively.

I really think a lot of drummers are just incredibly closed-minded when it comes to drum machines.
I have no argument with computers or drum machines, each to there own. By the time I had programmed a drum machine to play what I wanted, or thought I wanted, I could have played it myself, on a kit, a number of times and enjoyed it, physically and creatively. And... got a performance from a moment in time, never to be repeated.
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Old 06-11-2014, 04:46 PM
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I have no argument with computers or drum machines, each to there own. By the time I had programmed a drum machine to play what I wanted, or thought I wanted, I could have played it myself, on a kit, a number of times and enjoyed it, physically and creatively. And... got a performance from a moment in time, never to be repeated.
And that's fine - but the sound and compositional possibilities are different.

Different tools for different applications. Just as drum machines are not the solution to everything, neither are live drummers.

Take this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-9UvrLyj3k (Skip to 1.12 for the track).

I've seen it played on a kit (with some adaptation) but it's just something that you wouldn't think to even attempt writing on a kit. This was written in 1997 and the technology has come along a long way since then.
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Old 06-14-2014, 09:29 PM
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Yes in Many many ways
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Old 06-14-2014, 10:39 PM
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And that's fine - but the sound and compositional possibilities are different.

Different tools for different applications. Just as drum machines are not the solution to everything, neither are live drummers.

Take this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-9UvrLyj3k (Skip to 1.12 for the track).

I've seen it played on a kit (with some adaptation) but it's just something that you wouldn't think to even attempt writing on a kit. This was written in 1997 and the technology has come along a long way since then.
Oh but they are, that's why I'm a drummer. You just don't know the right drummers.
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Old 06-14-2014, 11:12 PM
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Oh but they are, that's why I'm a drummer. You just don't know the right drummers.
No, they're not sometimes.

Have you tried using all four limbs to play eight frequency sweeps simultaneously? Thought not...
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Old 06-15-2014, 11:24 PM
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The environment has never been cleaner. I recently read a story from the 70s about pollution from the mills in Tennessee. People had to change their shirts during the day because they became stained from air pollution. Lakes caught fire from pollution. That's all in the past.
It is patently false to say "the environment has never been cleaner", unless by "never" you mean during the past century in developed nations.

It is true that the air and water in many US cities in the 1960s was worse than it is today. It is because it got so bad that we created the EPA. Of course, we now hear voices (strangely called "conservative") that we need to get rid of the EPA because it creates regulations that are "burdensome" to businesses. Yes, it used to be much less of a bother when you could pour PCBs directly into a nearby river. Needing to treat these as the toxins they are is truly a burden and cuts in on the profits. /sarcasm. And do I need to point out that we have more radioactive waste sitting around than ever and we're still burning coal like there's no tomorrow?

Of course, we now have to concern ourselves with global climate change and its consequences (rising sea levels, increased storm frequency and severity, disruption of habitat), plus fun new challenges such as invasive species and antibiotic resistance. And then we get to couple this with a sizable group of people in the USA who are in denial about this and basic science (evolution, for example) because they don't like the consequences, it conflicts with their existing superstitions, or it runs counter to their tribal political identity. It will be a fitting testament to our monumental recalcitrance and stultifying arrogance when Glacier National Park becomes devoid of glaciers (predicted to occur some time in the next few decades).

In contrast, with music, toady's kids have access to all the same music we had plus new material, and some fun new technology that we didn't.

So no, I don't think today's kids have much to feel sorry about when it comes to music. Other stuff, not so much.
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