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  #1  
Old 01-10-2013, 02:08 AM
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Default Stick bag on the floor tom?

Was watching a bunch of Bob Gatzen videos about all the things that damp or kill a drum's tone. Whether the memory lock is engaged, where on the post the drum is mounted and so on. And it made me think of last weekend. First time I've played using my own kit in that particular room although I've sat in on other kits at jam sessions there. Space was tight so I hung my stick bag on the floor tom. It totally killed the drum, so I ended up wedging it against the back wall so it wasn't touching the drum. I thought it was a fairly live room what with a hard back wall and turn of the century tin ceiling. But the drum had to be left alone to work. Another live room I play in regularly where I'm in a corner, the bag helps tame the boom of the floor tom. Rooms with carpet or drapes on the back wall and there's nothing you can do unless you can get out a bit from it.

Has anyone else noticed this? Do you have a set thing where the bag is always on or off of the drum? Of course there is always the laying it across the monitor to protect you from bad soundpeople thing as well. ;-)
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:20 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I've never hung a stick bag off a floor tom, simple for that reason.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:30 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

i never noticed that before, i might have to try it out and move my sticks elsewhere
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I just lean my stick bag against the floor tom. Not sure why, just always have.
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Old 01-10-2013, 02:45 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I always have mine hanging on the floor tom too. Bad, good, or indifferent, it seems to blend with the rest of the kit.
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  #6  
Old 01-10-2013, 03:00 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

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I just lean my stick bag against the floor tom. Not sure why, just always have.
Same, and my floor tom has more hang time than my RIMS-mounted rack tom. I think it depends\ on the weight. I don't keep many sticks in my bag, but I imagine a heavier bag might affect the sound noticeably. Maybe I should watch those videos again...
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:13 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I have been hanging my stick bag on my floor tom since Nixon was prez.
I have never had a problem with it affecting the sound to the point that I took notice.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:22 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I'm a big believer that all kinds of little things can change the tone, but for some reason, I'm having a hard time buying this one. I mean, my stick bag just loosely hangs there.

I'll try it on and off soon and report back, but I just can't imagine that making a noticeable difference.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:34 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
I have been hanging my stick bag on my floor tom since Nixon was prez.
I have never had a problem with it affecting the sound to the point that I took notice.
me too....never an issue.

F
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  #10  
Old 01-10-2013, 04:45 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
I have been hanging my stick bag on my floor tom since Nixon was prez.
I have never had a problem with it affecting the sound to the point that I took notice.
This thread made me curious. I just tried it out on 3 different floor toms. No difference.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

That's where I hang mine, but I've never noticed a difference in sound. Seems like there wouldn't be enough weight coming from my stick bag to impact the resonance of a floor tom.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:51 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I tried taking it off last month and it was a very subtle difference, but it was definitely there. The floor tom just sounds and feels much more open to me now without the bag hanging against it and dampening it. I don't think my bag is that heavy (3 or 4 pairs of sticks, brushes, mallets, and rutes) but there was definitely an effect I could hear.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:22 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Mine is a Gibraltar over-the-shoulder bag, clips onto one tension rod, and since I angle my floor tom a bit, it hangs straight down and away from the tom. No difference at all.
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  #14  
Old 01-10-2013, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I never hang my stick bag on the floor tom. Firstly, with sticks brushes and mallets in there its heavy.
Secondly, not that I subscribe 100% to the theory, but If you go to the expense of un-drilled shells and rim type mounts to promote, allegedly, more tone and resonance, why then hang a bulky heavy bag on one of the drums? If mounting a drum on the shell changes the sound/resonance then so will a stick bag.

Just my take.
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  #15  
Old 01-10-2013, 01:31 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Most of the time I use the Promark stick holders on my kits, but when I do use a stick bag hanging from my 16" floor tom I hear no difference. The stick bag does not hold tightly against the drum but leans a bit outward away from the shell and does not affect its sound, I would definitely hear it. Here again it also depends on the way the floor tom is tilted on its legs. I always have mine tilted very slightly towards me pushing the bag away from the drum.



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  #16  
Old 01-10-2013, 02:03 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

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Originally Posted by alparrott View Post
Mine is a Gibraltar over-the-shoulder bag, clips onto one tension rod, and since I angle my floor tom a bit, it hangs straight down and away from the tom. No difference at all.
same here and I can't discern a difference
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  #17  
Old 01-10-2013, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I hang mine on my rack, or leave it on the floor.
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  #18  
Old 01-10-2013, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Take it off for recording if you're concerned, as far as live i really dont think it matters.
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  #19  
Old 01-10-2013, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

The only concern I have hanging my stick bag are the very, very fine surface scratches it causes in the lacquer when I knock it and it rubs against the drums. A bit of elbow grease and all is fine.

I understand people getting anal about isolation, mounts, damping, heads, things touching the shell etc. But lets be honest, when you're playing live, (Or even recording) can you or anyone else REALLY hear the difference in the final mix?

I remember Steve Smith showing how the sound of a snare drum changes depending which part of the tip you played it with. Personally, if he hadn't been close mic'ed I definitely wouldn't have heard any difference, and even in the ideal situation he was in, you reall needed to concentrate to hear the slightest indication of any possible change in the sound. Almost as much as during a hearing test, and how often do our ears play tricks on us during those?
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  #20  
Old 01-10-2013, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

for me it is a non-issue. i would only use a stick bag at a gig where minutae of resonance at the level that a stickbag would have any noticeable effect are negligable. in the studio where the mic might notice a difference i wouldn't use a stick bag anyways.
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  #21  
Old 01-12-2013, 05:49 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Hey, I remembered this thread and took the stick bag off my floor tom. I did notice a difference. The drum opened up and didn't sound as choked anymore. Thanks for the tip. Now I have to find out where to put an extra stick or two in case I drop one during a song.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:06 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

This is one crazy thread.
Come on, enough already, its a freakin stick bag!!!
It doesn't make no never mind where you hang it unless it is on top of one of your drumheads for cryin out loud.
Don't make me hit you guys with something soft like a fish :) :):)
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  #23  
Old 01-12-2013, 06:09 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

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Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
This is one crazy thread.
Come on, enough already, its a freakin stick bag!!!
It doesn't make no never mind where you hang it unless it is on top of one of your drumheads for cryin out loud.
Don't make me hit you guys with something soft like a fish :) :):)
I did hear a difference. I have concert toms, so I need every bit of help I can get. It just sounded better with the bag off. What can I say?
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:10 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Just got our internet back.

This was a fairly loud unmic'd gig and I needed some tone and sustain from the floor tom just to hear it. I have the larger Protection Racquet stick bag which is loaded up with various sticks, brushes, mallets, rods and so on.

I wonder how many of the folks who don't notice a difference are using damped heads like pinstripes or EC's? At around 3:00 into this video, Bob holds a tom in the air and sets it on it's side. At 4:30 he puts pads under a floor tom (similar idea to the Pearl isolating feet). That is about the same difference I found with the stick bag on or off the drum. It made the difference in the drum cutting through on that gig.
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  #25  
Old 01-12-2013, 06:18 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I'm using Aquarian Performance II's on my toms with no extra dampening. It wasn't a huge difference , but changed what was an Ok overtone into a more pleasant one.
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:46 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

My stick bag hangs loosely from the drum, and I don't typically pack a bunch of sticks in it. I see a lot of drummers have their stick bags loaded, where I carry a maximum of three pairs, four including the ones I'm playing with. The weight is so minimal, I doubt you could tell a difference, especially considering I use a 16x16, which is kinda' a power house drum in itself.

My stick bag is on my floor tom at all times except when I'm traveling. So I'm tuning the drum with the stick bag attached - so even if it is an obstacle, it's something I'm tuning around. To my ears, the drum sounds perfect. I have no reason to lose the convenience of having my stick bag so close.

Piss on NOT putting a stick bag on your floor tom... I'll just say that.
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Old 01-12-2013, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

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Originally Posted by EarthRocker View Post
My stick bag hangs loosely from the drum, and I don't typically pack a bunch of sticks in it. I see a lot of drummers have their stick bags loaded, where I carry a maximum of three pairs, four including the ones I'm playing with. The weight is so minimal, I doubt you could tell a difference, especially considering I use a 16x16, which is kinda' a power house drum in itself.

My stick bag is on my floor tom at all times except when I'm traveling. So I'm tuning the drum with the stick bag attached - so even if it is an obstacle, it's something I'm tuning around. To my ears, the drum sounds perfect. I have no reason to lose the convenience of having my stick bag so close.

Piss on NOT putting a stick bag on your floor tom... I'll just say that.
well said. i'll add more - if it really was an issue why then do we see stick bags on nearly every pro's live kit?
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Old 01-12-2013, 12:36 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I don't care what you do with your stick bag.

I'm just saying that I did, in fact, notice a difference. What's wrong with that? People pay hundreds of dollars for subtle differences in sound whether it be wood choice, rim choice, head choice, etc...whatever. Heck, thousand of dollars, and here all I had to do was remove my stick bag to improve the tone.

Nothing wrong with that, sir.
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
I don't care what you do with your stick bag.

I'm just saying that I did, in fact, notice a difference. What's wrong with that? People pay hundreds of dollars for subtle differences in sound whether it be wood choice, rim choice, head choice, etc...whatever. Heck, thousand of dollars, and here all I had to do was remove my stick bag to improve the tone.

Nothing wrong with that, sir.
Quite right. I have no issue with where a stick bag is, but if drummers are going to argue minimal differences between types of wood or coated/un-coated heads.... then hang a bag on a drum? I would suggest hanging a bag on a drum would make a much bigger difference than any percieved sonic difference between wood types.
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Old 01-12-2013, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Maybe put more angle on your Tom so the bag doesn't touch it and the only contact points would be where the string/hooks meet the tension rods.
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  #31  
Old 01-12-2013, 03:02 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Ok you argumentative rabble ;) ;) ;) I've just recorded a video especially for this thread. It'll take a while to upload to Youtube, so watch out for it later. It should answer all your questions with some good honest proof.

For me, although this subject in itself is of little importance, it actually gets to the bottom of some basic principals, hence my effort here.

Will Bob be getting his fish out? -- Watch this space in a few hours time :) :) :)
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Old 01-12-2013, 03:27 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdadruma View Post
It doesn't make no never mind where you hang it unless it is on top of one of your drumheads for cryin out loud.
From a driver's seat POV, it does Bob, it does makes a difference in the percieved sound ... but let see what Andy's video will reveal :)

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Don't make me hit you guys with something soft like a fish :) :):)
LOL... here, use this one :)
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Old 01-12-2013, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

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but let see what Andy's video will reveal :)
Indeed ;)



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  #34  
Old 01-12-2013, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Ok, here it is. Good headphones essential!

One thing I forgot to mention specifically in the video, listen to how the stick bag (additional mass) chokes off the shell tone on the Origin drum (as distinct from head sustain). It's shell tone that really makes a difference. It's what you hear most in normal playing, & it's what give the drum body & voice to highlight itself in the mix. Forget diminishing head sustain, it gets lost in all but the most subtle of musical contexts.

Judge for yourselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROxhfQUdIcw&hd=1

As a side point, please take into account that Origin Classic range drums are designed to have a fairly short voice. Bearing edges are quite rounded, & ash naturally has a short resonance profile.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Well call me Sandra and sodomise me with a drill - it does make a difference.

As I suspected, much more obvious with Andy's drum (the proportion of mass from the stick bag on the shell is much higher) so it makes a much bigger difference.

On my own drums, it makes little difference and nobody is going to notice, though. So practically in my instance it makes so little difference that it doesn't matter. If I had a set of Andy's drums though I'd think twice about it.
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Ok, here it is. Good headphones essential!

One thing I forgot to mention specifically in the video, listen to how the stick bag (additional mass) chokes off the shell tone on the Origin drum (as distinct from head sustain). It's shell tone that really makes a difference. It's what you hear most in normal playing, & it's what give the drum body & voice to highlight itself in the mix. Forget diminishing head sustain, it gets lost in all but the most subtle of musical contexts.

Judge for yourselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROxhfQUdIcw&hd=1

As a side point, please take into account that Origin Classic range drums are designed to have a fairly short voice. Bearing edges are quite rounded, & ash naturally has a short resonance profile.
thanks for the effort guru! it is as i suspected and why i never record with a stick bag. on stage the difference is negligable however.
j
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Old 01-12-2013, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

I have a beautiful custom made leather stick bag from a guy named Glenn Chronkite.

It hangs on my floor tom as have the my bags have done for over 30 years. Never had a complaint about the tone or sustain, by nature a big 16 vibrating membrane is going to vibrate for a long time.
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:08 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Cool video Andy! The side by side comparison really explains things. My ear got the same results with my tom as you got with your Vision tom. But it's enough for me to take the bag off and lean it against the wall. I'm never happy with my floor tom sound so it helps. The Guru tom really opens up and sings without the stick bag.
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:09 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

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Originally Posted by NUTHA JASON View Post
well said. i'll add more - if it really was an issue why then do we see stick bags on nearly every pro's live kit?
j
Because everyone does what everyone else does. And maybe a stick bag doesn't make all that much difference anyway.

I use a Vater stick holder, not a bag attached to the hihat stand: http://www.samash.com/p/Vater_VSHM%2...lder_-49963019
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Old 01-12-2013, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Stick bag on the floor tom?

Guys, the reason I put up that video was to display exactly why you're getting different results. Put plainly, if you have a 16" DW floor tom (by way of typical drum example only), you're not going to notice much difference, if anything. That's because the shell isn't resonating much (partially due to the shell, & partially due to the total mass of the instrument with it's hardware). However, if you have a highly resonant instrument, typically with thinner shell & low overall mass, it does make a difference.

The point I really want to make is the difference between head sustain & the product of shell sustain. Two completely different things. If your head sustain in cut short, in most musical situations, it makes little difference. If your shell sustain is cut short, it takes away body from the tone, & it's that tone that dictates the drums voice, & that tone that adds distinction to cut through the mix. A highly resonant shell also delivers a much more wholesome tone at lower dynamics.

In the video example, you can hear the shell tone being cut short (after half a second or so) in the first clip of the 14" floor tom. In the second clip, you can clearly hear that shell tone lasting much longer. That means, even in a loud gig situation, your drum will sound more full, & accordingly, more present.

I'm not saying that a resonant shell is better, it's just different, but if you're in the minority that have highly resonant shells, adding mass to your instrument will make a difference.

For the record, live, I hang my stick bag from my floor tom, or at least I did when playing with the Spaun. Now I'm using the new kit - no longer.
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