In the studio

I agree 1000% that you get a 3rd party to do the mix, or at least someone to act as a Producer. Someone respected, and someone whose input is accepted. If they can't deal with that, I think you need to put your foot down as the "band leader".

This disc is a reflection of where you are at this point in your life. Who knows, it may be years before you get to record again. It HAS to be something you are proud of and want to promote. They CANNOT be allowed to dictate YOUR sound.

I'm sorry, this really gets under my skin. Reading this, (and I may be wrong here) but it sounds like the band is on a tipping point right now anyway. Get someone else involved and get this done right the first time.

Good luck - I hope it turns out well.
 
eclipseownzu said:
Not the biggest fan of extreme metal, but to me the best bands in that genre have the best drummers. It no accident that we know the names of Chris Adler, Derrick Roddy, Gene Hoglan, George Kollias, Thomas Hakke, etc. These guys arnt just placeholders. Its the really generic bands that have guys just running in place on their pedals.

The problem really seems to be that your other members are OK with sounding like other bands. Instead of trying to create new sounds and new music, they want to be safe and use old formulas that have already been done. Creating great art means taking chances. I would say that you guys find an engineer whose mixes you all like, and agree to just go with whatever he does. None of you appear to be professional recording engineers, so find a pro and let him do his job.
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You are right that the other guys just want to sound like other bands sound wise. And I don't! We had this discussion the other day in the studio. I said that we have to not worry about what other bands sound like style wise and sound wise. If it sounds good to us that all that matters. The other guys are more content sticking to a formula. I am all about innovation and finding one's own sound and voice. So I'm always pushing for that in any band that I'm in.

Honestly I think that the vast majority of musicians are still in imitation mode instead of innovation mode. I came to the conclusion years ago that I want to have my own voice as a musician. And I want the same for any band that I'm in. I say pull from your influences but find your own sound as well, both as an individual and as a band.

I've said it to just about every band that I've been in for the last 20 years, if we just sound like a copy of other bands no one is going to care. We need to take chances and innovative. But a lot of the times I feel like my words fall on deaf ears.
 
Had the band meeting tonight about the mix. They both felt that the kick drum was way unbalanced in the current mix. There are some hits that are louder then the others, that's true, but It's not by much. Some of the hits are not even louder but they say they are. But I said we can have them brought down in the mix if it makes them happy.

They both do home mixes on things and I don't. I've heard the bass players mixes and they are ok. But not great. So in their minds I don't know what I'm talking about mix wise. But I've been in studios off and on since 1996. That does not make me a sound engineer, but I know a good mix when I hear it.

Of course they were both in agreement with each other that the drums are too loud. I told them that I knew they would say that because they are both guitar players so they are always going to think the drums are too loud. They didn't like that much lol!

All in all I made compromises to make them happy. I also suggested that we hire an engineer and a producer to do the next album to save us this kind of a headache because we're never going to fully agree on the mixes. But they are totally against doing that because they don't want to spend the money. I'd rather pony up to save us the headache of what we went through tonight. They are good with still hiring someone to mix and master the next album but not for production. More than likely that's just setting us up again for what we went through tonight, but they won't listen to me on that topic.

I sent the guy who mixed our album a message about the updates to the mix. Hopefully it comes out well.
 
drummingman said:
They are totally against doing that because they don't want to spend the money. I'd rather pony up to save us the headache of what we went through tonight.
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There's the crux of the matter, they're producing with their ego and won't pay anyone to do it because it might bruise their pride and they're probably cheap bastards as well that don't realise a half decent engineer/producer will give you a really good finished product.

Don't pay any extra cash because these guys are pig headed retards. Walk away, sounds like you ain't enjoying it and these idiots are costing you money now.

Any more crap off your bassist tell him to google bassist rule 2. Never a truer saying :)

I wouldn't be surprised if the guy doing the mixes tells you where to stick it with all these changes. I hope you're paying him well.
 
I imagine the guitars are using the whole frequency spectrum and the drums are naturally sounding lost in the mix.
On top of that, if you're trying to get a full sound on the toms, and not a short note, the drums will be even more lost in the mix.

Everything needs to make space for everything else, and metal is very difficult with that.
The mixing person has to know how to make space in the frequencies, and sometimes that means coming up with advanced techniques of mixing, like ducking the instruments off each other.
 
I wish you could send your audio to Glenn Fricker at Spectre Sound Studios and get him to mix it for you. I'm not big into metal anymore, but I've only heard good stuff coming out of his studio.

You could always do two mixes of one song, one where the guitars and vocals are really hot and then another that's more balanced. Post them on social media or on a message board and let people vote on which one they think sounds better.

I really hate this for you. I don't have the patience to deal with mixing stuff anymore.
 
Everything louder than everything else. And a complete disregard for the expertise of the professional you paid good money to do the job for you.

What a cracking working environment it must be. I pity the poor sod.

Amateur hour.
 
Drums are just placeholders. There's an interesting take. What happens when the drums drop out? The whole place collapses. So yea, we hold the place up, like the frame of a house.

If it were me in your situation, I would use reverse psychology and tell him how to handle the guitar in the mix. With the goal of getting him to admit that he, as the guitar player, absolutely knows what's best for the guitar part. So it just follows suit that the drummer would know what's best for the drum part.

The goal is to get an agreement hammered out where the guitar player gets last say on the guitar part, the bass player gets the last say on the bass part, and the drummer gets the last say on the drum part. Period. No one gets to manage their instrument AND someone else's. Set this precedent NOW, and get this straight NOW to avoid future conflicts. Be a giant PITA dick if you have to. It really can be very effective, getting mad. Use it to your advantage, which in this case is simply protecting the drum part from rape by the guitarist and bassist.

Hey everyone gets to air their comments, but in the end, each member gets final say on their part. Period.
 
If this makes you feel any better...

I was recording a project for our church. At the time, the sound tech wanted me to play a set of V-Drums, so I obliged. As I was recording, we used some of the factory sounds in which he was going to go back in later and replace with other samples. For some reason, the cymbal pads weren't working, but he assured me he was getting signal and would be able to replace them. Ok, no problem. The overall recording process was a nightmare for me. Sometimes things would trigger, sometimes they wouldn't, and I was having to go back in and put in single snare hits or tom hits or whatever. He did a lot of copying and pasting as well.

Fast forward several months. Over that time period, all of the individual parts are recorded over time (it's all done with a click track), lead vocals are recorded, the choir is recorded, etc. Then, the final mix-down. After the final mix-down, the head worship pastor listens to the project start to finish in addition to our full-time sound engineer. Both approve the project. Artwork is done, and it's sent off to get pressed. I get a copy of the CD, and I put it in my player, and what do you know? No cymbals. At all. Well, let me take that back...every once in a while there's a random China cymbal clanging off somewhere in the distance. I asked them if there was any way to get my name off of the project. Unfortunately, there was none.

When we record a project now, we did it with live drums with no sampling. I think they learned their lesson.
 
drummingman said:
Had the band meeting tonight about the mix. They both felt that the kick drum was way unbalanced in the current mix. There are some hits that are louder then the others, that's true, but It's not by much. Some of the hits are not even louder but they say they are. But I said we can have them brought down in the mix if it makes them happy.
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This is interesting. Is the person you have mixing it doing any drum edits? If you are just giving him raw tracks and asking him to mix without any editing you are really hampering his ability to give you the best product. At the same time if you are completely against any editing you are never going to get the professional sounding product you are looking for.

In the world of death metal meticulous drums are a must. There is no room for error or feel. It may be that you think you are in a groove metal band and they think they are in a death metal band. Big difference between the two, and maybe you guys need to figure that out before you can move on. Just a thought.
 
I think the mix that we had sounded good. But I got out voted. So I had no choice but to ask the mixer to change things.

He sent me an email today saying that he made changes and it sounds good. I have not heard it yet but I'm hoping for the best. All I ever wanted was a balanced mix where everyone is heard well. So if we get that I'll be happy.
 
PorkPieGuy said:
If this makes you feel any better...

I was recording a project for our church. At the time, the sound tech wanted me to play a set of V-Drums, so I obliged. As I was recording, we used some of the factory sounds in which he was going to go back in later and replace with other samples. For some reason, the cymbal pads weren't working, but he assured me he was getting signal and would be able to replace them. Ok, no problem. The overall recording process was a nightmare for me. Sometimes things would trigger, sometimes they wouldn't, and I was having to go back in and put in single snare hits or tom hits or whatever. He did a lot of copying and pasting as well.

Fast forward several months. Over that time period, all of the individual parts are recorded over time (it's all done with a click track), lead vocals are recorded, the choir is recorded, etc. Then, the final mix-down. After the final mix-down, the head worship pastor listens to the project start to finish in addition to our full-time sound engineer. Both approve the project. Artwork is done, and it's sent off to get pressed. I get a copy of the CD, and I put it in my player, and what do you know? No cymbals. At all. Well, let me take that back...every once in a while there's a random China cymbal clanging off somewhere in the distance. I asked them if there was any way to get my name off of the project. Unfortunately, there was none.

When we record a project now, we did it with live drums with no sampling. I think they learned their lesson.
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Man, I'm sorry. That's awful!
 
drummingman said:
I think the mix that we had sounded good. But I got out voted. So I had no choice but to ask the mixer to change things.

He sent me an email today saying that he made changes and it sounds good. I have not heard it yet but I'm hoping for the best. All I ever wanted was a balanced mix where everyone is heard well. So if we get that I'll be happy.
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If there’s any positive from this it’s a lesson learnt for the next recording in that it’s always best (in most cases) to have it fully mixed by someone not in the band.

Hope you get a mix back you’re more happier with.

Fingers crossed for you
 
dale w miller said:
Find what some of their favorite metal songs are, play them for them, and more than likely the drums will be up front. Or you can get the engineer’s input and hope it supports yours.
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I tried that. And the drums were up front on the songs that we listened too. But they swore up and down that they were not.

I have a feeling that the mixer is upset with us because of the changes that the other guys wanted to make. I told him that I was sorry and that it was not my fault and that I was good with keeping the mix the way it was. So I'm hoping that the mix we get does not suck because of him being upset with us. I'm hoping that I don't get the mix back with half of my bass drum notes missing because the other guys asked me to ask him to turn the bass drum down.
 
I just spoke with the mixing engineer and he is not upset with us in any way. So that's nice. He actually said we were great to work with. Dude is a very nice guy!
 
Post 3 mixes of the same song—the mix you like, the one the bassist likes, and the one the guitarist likes—and let us vote on which one we prefer. But don't let us know which is which, so it will be a "blind" test. Then go back to the band with the results. Maybe it will sway them, assuming we like the version you like. Regardless, it will be interesting to see the results.
 
Since we can't hear anything, all suggestions ultimately have to be taken with a grain of salt.

At this point in my life, I'm a big fan of just paying a pro to do their thing and trust their judgement.

I always listen to mixes on multiple sources, which always include my own reference monitors, Sony MDR-7506 headphones, and the stock system in my Toyota 4runner. I will also compare those mixes to any applicable reference mixes.

I have ruined mixes in the past by not really understanding how to communicate my concerns, or by listening to the mixes appropriately to begin with. For example, I may have thought I needed to hear "more bass drum," but what I really need to hear was more relative 4k. But, we just turned up the fader and got way more low end information than was appropriate for the mix as a whole. What sounded good in the console room just didn't work anywhere else. Youth, inexperience, and haste.

Some engineers are better at translating those those kind of statements than others, or at least can ask the right questions to find out what the real problem is, but some will just take any statement literally.

Double kick sound a little uneven? Try some (or more, or different) compression, or maybe even limiting. Are the drums actually too loud, or do they just need to be more aggressively gated or ducked? Are the drums actually too loud, or do something just need some subtractive EQ to get out of the way of something else?
 
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