Thick vs. Thin Hi-Hat Top

MrLeadFoot

Silver Member
One of the churches where I play in a worship band has a pair of 14" Paragon hats, and while I find they cut really nicely, I also found them to be lacking when you "fan" the hi-hat. Not sure if "fan" is the terminology today, but in the old days that was what it was called. If you don't know what I mean, think of those hi-hat accents in the beginning of Steve Miller's Take the Money and Run.

Anyway, I wanted some feedback based on experience in regards to my findings. Is it because they are Paragons, or is that just the way a thicker top behaves? My own personal hat is a vintage 14" thin UFIP top over a vintage A Zildjian bottom. FWIW, I recently tried an A Thin Crash as a top and while it cuts well and fans great, I'm wondering if the significantly more cut of the Paragons is characteristic of a thick top. What should I look for in a top that would give me a bit more cut without compromising the fan abilities, or is there even such an animal?
 
Hmm. I never played the Paragons, but with a thicker top, that just means you'll be using more force for your fanning technique. Old skool Zildjian New Beats are a thin top mated with a medium bottom. The thicker you go, the less musical they sound. So I'm surprised you say the paragon top is thick. I figured those were supposed to be 'musical' hi hats as well.
 
I refer to what you're talking about in 3 ways...hats can be clangy (heavy and gongy), sloshy (have some body but start to "open up" more than clangy ones), and sizzly (thinner hats that open up easily and "sizzle" well--kinda like a riveted cymbal sound). Not all heavy cymbals are clangy--my HHX Evolution hats are proof of this. I think it has more to do with how much tension or how stiff a cymbal is that detemines its sonic characteristics, but I'm no expert...
 
Hmm. I never played the Paragons, but with a thicker top, that just means you'll be using more force for your fanning technique. Old skool Zildjian New Beats are a thin top mated with a medium bottom. The thicker you go, the less musical they sound. So I'm surprised you say the paragon top is thick. I figured those were supposed to be 'musical' hi hats as well.
The Paragon is about twice as thick as both my my UFIP, and the 14" A Thin Crash I tested as a hi-hat top. I'm not so sure "force" would make them "sizzle" on fanning, at least not in a flattering way. I've tried a lot of different things with them, too, inlcuding loosening the hi-hat clutch felts, and nothing seems to enable them to fan nicely. I keep using them, because in a worship music context, a killer fan is not critical, and the way they cut pretty nice. But, in my secular band, there's no way I'd use them because of the lack of fanning. Hence my question on what might have cut AND fan sizzle.
 
I refer to what you're talking about in 3 ways...hats can be clangy (heavy and gongy), sloshy (have some body but start to "open up" more than clangy ones), and sizzly (thinner hats that open up easily and "sizzle" well--kinda like a riveted cymbal sound). Not all heavy cymbals are clangy--my HHX Evolution hats are proof of this. I think it has more to do with how much tension or how stiff a cymbal is that detemines its sonic characteristics, but I'm no expert...
You might be right as far as cymbal flexibility goes, which is why my thinner top and crash-used-as-top both blow the thicker Paragons out of the water when it comes to fanning.

But, am I correct in assuming that in general that thicker hats produce more cut with the closed hi-hat sound?
 
But, am I correct in assuming that in general that thicker hats produce more cut with the closed hi-hat sound?

Yes they do, but the problem with hi-hats is that they're already in this frequency range where nothing else is, so even thinner New Beats tend to stick out in your overall drum mix. I've heard many a beginning drummer just obliterate his own drum sound by concentrating too much on his hi-hats, when in reality, he could really go light on the hats and produce more bass drum and snare drum instead.
 
Hmm. Old skool Zildjian New Beats are a thin top mated with a medium bottom. The thicker you go, the less musical they sound. So I'm surprised you say the paragon top is thick. I figured those were supposed to be 'musical' hi hats as well.

NEW BEATS are medium weight top and a heavy bottom, which is somewhat of a standard Hi Hat pairing. W/o looking Im going to guess PARAGON'S are weighted close to the same. Don't think Neil Peart would have a heavy HH top.



What should I look for in a top that would give me a bit more cut without compromising the fan abilities, or is there even such an animal?

"Fan abilities" with cut? You can fan a heavy HH top, it just takes more power, tho it would probably be too loud. Weight ads cut, so medium weight HH tops will have more cut than light tops.

You've got the word- 'Sizzle'

Sizzle hat's, or hat's with rivets installed. When the hats are closed the rivets are virtually nonexistent, when you open the hats (fan) the rivets come alive and sizzle. You get the best of both worlds. I prefer an explosive 'fan' sizzle w/my hat's, and I get that with rivets.
 
All I can say about the Paragons is that when you fan them, instead of being able to get a long "shhhhhhhht", you get nothing but a very quick "shht". If you try to hit them hard, you get a clangy fan.

Whether thickness is indicative of weight or not, all I know is that my UFIP top is 826 grams, the A Thin Crash I put on as a top is 820 grams, and when eyeballed, they appear to be the same thickness, or close enough that you can't see the difference. The Paragon top appears to be twice as thick.
 
You might try pairing a Mastersound or Soundedge bottom with your existing tops, since you like the responsiveness of the ones you have. I've found the rippled bottom to give a characteristic cut of its own - maybe that would do the trick without going to a heavier top!
 
Really? I had no idea a bottom even made a difference. I will start messing with my bottom a bit. Wait, that didn't come out quite right. :)
 
I play a set of fairly thick and dry hats (Murat Diril 'Black Sea' 14") and it comes down to familiarity and playing technique. You have to spend time with them. With my hats, they're quite capable of the sound you describe but you have to work at it.
 
I've found the rippled bottom to give a characteristic cut of its own - maybe that would do the trick without going to a heavier top!

I've used (and owned) sets of hi-hats with a rippled bottom before, but I found that they produced a very weak foot-splash sound with the pedal (which I assume is what fanning means).

Although rippled bottoms give you less air-lock and more cut, they also provide less surface area for the top and bottom to interact when splashing and therefore give a weaker sound, which would take the OP back to square one.

Hope everyone is well,

Kev
 
All I can say about the Paragons is that when you fan them, instead of being able to get a long "shhhhhhhht", you get nothing but a very quick "shht". If you try to hit them hard, you get a clangy fan.

Whether thickness is indicative of weight or not, all I know is that my UFIP top is 826 grams, the A Thin Crash I put on as a top is 820 grams, and when eyeballed, they appear to be the same thickness, or close enough that you can't see the difference. The Paragon top appears to be twice as thick.

You might have a 'dog' set of PARAGONS. If you can try another pair, they may sound different. I've played more than a few HHX EVO hats and they were all different in sound and feel, enough so that I could tell. Not as much consistency as you might expect.
 
I've used (and owned) sets of hi-hats with a rippled bottom before, but I found that they produced a very weak foot-splash sound with the pedal (which I assume is what fanning means).

Although rippled bottoms give you less air-lock and more cut, they also provide less surface area for the top and bottom to interact when splashing and therefore give a weaker sound, which would take the OP back to square one.

Hope everyone is well,

Kev

In the example given by the OP ("Take the Money and Run" intro) the slightly open hat is struck with the stick and then closed. (In our backwoods vernacular, we just called it hissing the hat, lol!) So I don't think a foot-splash is what he is talking about when he says fanning, but I don't know for certain.

Now, I am assuming that when he says cut, he means the way the hat sounds when played with the stick with the hat in the closed position. And the rippled bottom does give some advantage there, in my experience.

In any case, I was just offering another option he can check, and see if he likes it.
 
I have no clue what fanning is. I keep getting that Ringo 8th note swingy visual ... Do you mean like a "bark"? Because I totally get not being able to get thick cymbals to open up enough to get a good bark ... Also, I always thought that sloshy was a characteristic of thinner hats and sizzle was what manhole covers did when left open.

Maybe we need to convene a panel of resident experts to determine what the correct descriptors are once and for all. I'll go ahead and appoint myself committee chair: it is now a lingo foul to use any form of the word "fan" as it relates to drumming unless one is used for making your free range farmed hair blow around in your sexy rock video :)
 
I agree, thinner hat tops don't cut as much. They sound darker and have a softer stick feel but in a band situation they can get a bit lost.

At least I'm finding that with my 16" hats (2 crashes).

I just googled paragon hats 'cos I'd never seen/heard them. The 'brilliant' ones look and sound just like my ufip supernova hats... ufip says on the site they're quieter (aside from other properties) because they're made from sheet metal, perhaps paragons are similar.
 
I have no clue what fanning is. I keep getting that Ringo 8th note swingy visual ... Do you mean like a "bark"? Because I totally get not being able to get thick cymbals to open up enough to get a good bark ... Also, I always thought that sloshy was a characteristic of thinner hats and sizzle was what manhole covers did when left open.

Maybe we need to convene a panel of resident experts to determine what the correct descriptors are once and for all. I'll go ahead and appoint myself committee chair: it is now a lingo foul to use any form of the word "fan" as it relates to drumming unless one is used for making your free range farmed hair blow around in your sexy rock video :)

Agreed Mike.Fanning is how Ringo played his hats.His hand not only went up and down,but also from side to side.Almost in a U or V motion.

A hi hat bark is what's being played in the intro of " Take the Money and Run".You can also clearly hear hi hat barks on the Beck, Bogert and Appice album.Carmine was master of the technique,on tunes like "Lady" and "Superstious".

Steve B
 
In the example given by the OP ("Take the Money and Run" intro) the slightly open hat is struck with the stick and then closed. (In our backwoods vernacular, we just called it hissing the hat, lol!)
/QUOTE]

Ahh, I'm with you now. In that case rippled bottoms might be exactly the solution the OP is looking for. I remember a while back a member was talking about hi-hat "sip", which caused a lot of confusion. That said, there's something quite nice about seeing old terms being used, I remember talking to a drummer who still referred to the hi-hat as the "sock cymbal"...I vote we bring back "tub-drum".

Hope everyone is having a great start to their weekends,

Kev
 
It sounds like I better clear some things up! :)

MIKEM, "Fan" is the original technical term for hitting a closed hi-hat at an angle then opening it a nanosecond after the strike, then closing it again, which produces a sound like you would hear on the accents on 3 and 4 of the second measure after the leading fill on the intro of Steve Miller's Take the Money and Run. As described by someone else's post above, "bark" would be considered an equivalent colloquial term. And, TAMADRM, aka Steve B, I beg to differ about Carmine Appice and fanning, as I am the master at it, which is why I am so concerned. You naven't heard my Boogie Oogie Oogie, have you? :)

Hi-hat Cut - the ability to be heard through the mix when riding a closed hi-hat. That said, BO EDER, what you said about hi-hats being heard without a lot of effort is exactly why a good hi-hat cut is desired. You should not have to work at that, and I prefer that every little nuance and inflection be heard... even mistakes. If your mistakes are heard, that can make you a better or smarter player. Hint: Sometimes being smarter is easier than getting better - If you make a mistake, just repeat it; not only will it sound like a "technique", many times repeating a mistake puts you right back in the groove! :)

To clarify, Paragons are not quiet at all. They cut very well, but their fan abilities are much to be desired. I've been working at them every Sunday for a year now, and while you can get a fan out of them, you simply cannot get anything other than a quick one, never mind a prolonged fan. You can't really sizzle them, either... if you try, they sound like two cymbals rattling and/or clanging together, if you can imagine that. Trust me, I know what a true sizzle is, as I have a 1972 Zildjian 20" Sizzle Ride, and can sizzle my own hi-hat very well, too. While I previously attributed these idiosyncracies with the Paragons to them being thick, after CADDYWUMPUS's comment about stiffness, I paid careful attention last night when I was playing them again for the umpteenth time, and it certainly seems like their stiffness is the issue. Granted, other people might not notice the way they fan, but I'm a sticker for technique, and quite particular, if you haven't noticed by my other posts (and by the fact that I find Westone IEMs to sound like crap when so many artists like them, but that's another story), so Paragons are definitely not what I would pay any amount of money for.

Mastersounds - I just returned from Guitar Center, and for the record, the 14" Mastersounds were... let's just say WOW! They are everything a drummer would want. Nice crisp, clean and cutting, and they were sweet as heck when fanned. A pretty penny, to be sure, but they really are everything they are hyped to be. For the record, I am so mad at whoever suggested them, because now I WANT SOME! I was originally looking for a 14" crash, for Pete's sake! I won't mention any names, ID DRUMMER, but whoever suggested Mastersounds owes me the $328 I will inevitably end up spending for them, because I'd be hard-pressed to try and come up with as good of a sound, no matter what mix of tops and bottoms and crashes-as-tops combo I try. Although the A Thin Crash top does indeed provide for killer fans, and a not-bad cut, it doesn't hold a candle to the Mastersounds. In fact, nothing I've ever heard in my entire life does! By the way, can someone please tell me when the equipment aquisition in this profession ever ends? :)
 
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I was just about to respond about fanning. After giving it a little more thought, I think the term makes sense, and your description is pretty good: if you're playing lazy 8ths with the stick while playing lazy 8ths with your foot, and if done such that the stick hits the hats at or around the same time as the foot closes them, there's a kind of airy and sloshy thing happening while still maintaining some amount of articulation. Is this what you're describing?

The best example of this I can think of is on Abbey Road during The End right after the drum solo, where Ringo uses this kind of riding technique right through to where everyone stops and it's just piano 8ths.

I'm not including the obvious accented hat openings that close on many of the 2 & 4s thru that section, though. To me, those are just run-of-the-mill disco barks (albeit tasty mellow barks done within the context the effect described).

In any case, I'm not hearing that effect on Take the Money and Run - to me those are barks because the top cymbal is far enough away from the bottom cymbal for long enough to open up clearly and is then cleanly choked off when the cymbals come back together. But maybe you're talking about something going on between those that isn't obvious to me on my crappy computer speakers?

I hereby rescind my ban on the word "fan" for drumming applications :) ... as you were, men - smoke 'em if you got 'em!

BTW, I'm digging this discussion about tension and stiffness in the metal and its effect on how cymbals play and sound. Paragon hats, according to Sabian, are medium weight both top and bottom, so if anything they should be lighter and easier to play than New Beats, Ks, A/K Mastersounds (though not A Custom Mastersounds which are medium-thin over medium), Evolutions, Stage Hats, AA/HH Regular (or medium) hats, et al, ... all of which use a medium over a heavy.

I've played Paragons before, too, and wasn't particularly fond of them because they just didn't seem all that responsive, despite their "lighter weight" (but I think Sabian may be playing loose and fast with those terms, tbh). There is definitely something else at work here.

... which leads me to this bit of forum flaming (kidding!) - as much as I like Sabian cymbals, there is something in the metal they produce and work, and its present in every line they make ... I don't know how to describe it, but to me they sound mellower across the board than their closest competitor (Zildjian). My pet theory is that Sabian metal has less tension than Zildjian such that even my Ks tend to be bighter than my AAXs. I had a pair of AAX Stage Hats, which were kinda cool and not bad to play, but they didn't seem to produce all the frequencies that my very typical New Beats do, and were surprisingly mellow for hats that are among the brightest in their entire catalog. Zildjian gets hated on for being harsh, and I often agree with this criticism, but at the end of the day, they're more even across the frequency spectrum even though many of those overtones seemingly conflict, giving them their harsher sound (especially with the A series). Sabian manages to avoid those conflicting overtones simply by not having as many there to begin with). This is not necessarily a bad thing and is part of what gives Sabian the charm they have, but it seems to be a result of their cymbals being somehow softer (lower alloy tension) than Zildjians.

Anyway, all this to say that a subtle technique like "fanning" won't be as effective if the cymbals in question aren't producing the full array of frequencies and/or overtones.
 
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