Should I be annoyed?

Midnite Zephyr said:
You seem to be missing my point. Dr Watso had no problem seeing my point.
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Sorry man, but you are on the wrong side of this one. Don't YOU work hard for the money to buy your gear? I DO, and I don't even allow idiots to blow in my mics. One night at a talent show some MORON did a "mic drop" with one of MY Shure SM57's. He almost took it home in his rectum. My policy for the last 30 years is NO ONE packs my gear for a gig but me, and NO ONE uses my stuff, whether it's guitars or mics. I have never played out as a drummer and probably never will, but I Jam at my house a lot and there are only two other people in the world that get to play my kit.

I'm not "obsessive" over stuff, I'm PROTECTIVE. There's a difference. Wouldn't you be upset if some drunken idiot split one of your cymbals or went through a head?
 
KamaK said:
It's interesting, because from a certain perspective everyone is missing the point....

A musician should be prepared for others asking to borrow their gear, and should have clear terms prepared (in writing even) so that the situation in the OP cannot possibly occur.

I'm not blaming the OP, because we've all been though this. Hopefully, failure begets wisdom, as it has in most of our cases.

I agree with both MZ and TL in that... It shouldn't have been a big deal, but it was, because the OP's band wasn't fully prepared to be asked to share equipment. Now they know. They can sort it or stay stupid.


@rmac86
Write out the policy. Let the borrow know what they can and can't do in clear terms. No tuning. They can only adjust throne/snare/hhat height. They need to supply cymbals. $60 deposit with a $20 rental fee, keep the full $60 if they break the rules. If it doesn't fit on a single index card, you're being too picky. Make some F'ing lemonade.
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WHY should I HAVE to be prepared for others to use my gear?
 
Mozart1220 said:
Sorry man, but you are on the wrong side of this one. Don't YOU work hard for the money to buy your gear? I DO, and I don't even allow idiots to blow in my mics. One night at a talent show some MORON did a "mic drop" with one of MY Shure SM57's. He almost took it home in his rectum. My policy for the last 30 years is NO ONE packs my gear for a gig but me, and NO ONE uses my stuff, whether it's guitars or mics. I have never played out as a drummer and probably never will, but I Jam at my house a lot and there are only two other people in the world that get to play my kit.

I'm not "obsessive" over stuff, I'm PROTECTIVE. There's a difference. Wouldn't you be upset if some drunken idiot split one of your cymbals or went through a head?
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Good for you. I'm done with this stupid conversation. I don't think I'm on the wrong side of anything. Apparently, I haven't been exposed to the same caliber musicians that you people have. I guess I would be jaded too if I had been involved with these kinds of people.
 
Mozart1220 said:
there are only two other people in the world that get to play my kit.
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How could anyone ever mistake you for someone who is obsessed with their gear?

That was sarcasm.

Treating everyone like they're the "mic drop" guy is what makes you seem like you might need to un-clench a bit. It's your decision, but you do look a bit like you're a little too worried about your stuff and not worried enough about how you appear to your friends and people who you categorically say "not a chance" to. In the several hundred times my kit has been used at gigs, I've not had one problem where something was damaged beyond use. I've never been that guy who kills a show by not loaning something to another drummer when it breaks or allowing kit share when there's not a lot of change over time.

Kindergarten stuff. Be nice to people, share, give some benefit of doubt. It's a much better way to live than being too worried about yourself and your material stuff.
 
Dr_Watso said:
How could anyone ever mistake you for someone who is obsessed with their gear?

That was sarcasm.

Treating everyone like they're the "mic drop" guy is what makes you seem like you might need to un-clench a bit. It's your decision, but you do look a bit like you're a little too worried about your stuff and not worried enough about how you appear to your friends and people who you categorically say "not a chance" to. In the several hundred times my kit has been used at gigs, I've not had one problem where something was damaged beyond use. I've never been that guy who kills a show by not loaning something to another drummer when it breaks or allowing kit share when there's not a lot of change over time.

Kindergarten stuff. Be nice to people, share, give some benefit of doubt. It's a much better way to live than being too worried about yourself and your material stuff.
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My "Material stuff" is the result of LONG hours of HARD work. It may be "kindergarten stuff" to someone with all the money in the world to replace it, but for me It's all I'm going to get. My friends are musicians that feel the same way. If someone can't show up with their own gear, they can sit and watch. 40 years of playing has taught me valuable lessons. I thought guitars were expensive until I got into drums. $100 for a cheap cymbal? No way some drunken idiot is beating on that. Sorry to seem angry, but I learned my lessons.
 
Mozart1220 said:
My "Material stuff" is the result of LONG hours of HARD work. It may be "kindergarten stuff" to someone with all the money in the world to replace it, but for me It's all I'm going to get. My friends are musicians that feel the same way. If someone can't show up with their own gear, they can sit and watch. 40 years of playing has taught me valuable lessons. I thought guitars were expensive until I got into drums. $100 for a cheap cymbal? No way some drunken idiot is beating on that. Sorry to seem angry, but I learned my lessons.
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None of my friends or the people who play music around here are rich enough that they don't care about money or value their stuff. We just value personal relationships and being a good person to those around you more than we value stuff or money, and accept some minor risk. Some guys are more careful than others, and put warnings out and make sure to specify "if you use my stuff, and break it, you need to replace it", but we all make fun of guys who come to shows and get all precious about their stuff to the point where they can't bear to do a kit share or loan a part that broke on someone's setup. It comes across as obsessive, neurotic nonsense. In every case that's happened, one of the other drummers or myself stepped right up because our priorities are not hinged on material stuff. Our priority is having fun, making music, and making friends.

Nice guys do get walked on sometimes, but at least they aren't the asshole in the room.
 
I'd like to point out that our musical equipment serves different functions for different people:

As some have pointed out, for them it's essentially "cool toys" to have, use, and share and they accept the fact that doing so along the way, there may be bumps, scratches, etc. That's just part of having it and using the gear.

As others have pointed out, it's something they've wanted for themselves -to own and/or possess and the use of it, professionally or not, is secondary to actually obtaining it. For some people attaining a certain cymbal, drumset, guitar, etc is a personal status symbol -a reward you give yourself for doing something or accomplishing something.

And as some other people have pointed out, their gear are their tools. It's what allows them to make money. Similar to a race car for a NASCAR driver, or a set of sockets and wrenches to a mechanic, these are the tools that these professionals need to acquire and maintain to earn a living. Hence, they do not want other people potentially jeopardizing their ability to earn and pay their bills by misusing their tools/gear.

I have met musicians from each of these three types and they certainly aren't mutually exclusive.

As an anecdote: 20 years ago I was a service manager for a Harley dealership. Every tech was responsible for buying and maintaining their own tools. The mechanics were not hourly employees. These guys made their money by wrenching on service appointments, on "book time" -meaning each service job had a prescribed amount of hours it would pay. Each of them was very strict about not lending out their tools and locking their cabinets at the end of each night. Most of them would take their tool carts home when they would be going on vacation. It wasn't a matter of them not trusting each other, but there were times when we'd catch one of the parts or sales guys thinking they could just walk back there, grab a wrench and to do something on a buddy's/customer's bike and not put the tools back or wouldn't wipe them down afterward.
 
Well this is an entertaining thread!

Seems to me the real problem is that somebody agreed to loan out something that wasn't his to offer. Everything beyond that is just detail.

I have let other beings use my kit on occasion. Always with the same provisos: If you dent a head or damage a cymbal, you just bought it. And don't adjust my kit or cymbals. And when I play somebody else's kit, that is always the basis on which I play it.
 
Mozart1220 said:
Sorry man, but you are on the wrong side of this one. Don't YOU work hard for the money to buy your gear? I DO, and I don't even allow idiots to blow in my mics. One night at a talent show some MORON did a "mic drop" with one of MY Shure SM57's. He almost took it home in his rectum. My policy for the last 30 years is NO ONE packs my gear for a gig but me, and NO ONE uses my stuff, whether it's guitars or mics. I have never played out as a drummer and probably never will, but I Jam at my house a lot and there are only two other people in the world that get to play my kit.

I'm not "obsessive" over stuff, I'm PROTECTIVE. There's a difference. Wouldn't you be upset if some drunken idiot split one of your cymbals or went through a head?
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The only people who do a mic drop are people who've never paid for a mic.
I detest seeing people do that.

And it brings to mind the saying, once bitten twice shy. Everything's fine until the moment someone abuses or damages your gear, after that it's perfectly reasonable in my opinion for someone to be less generous with their gear.
 
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This discussion has gone from a discussion to a black versus white argument. Will I lend someone my equipment if they turn up on the night without their own, expecting to use mine? No. And that's not me being nasty, it's me treating people the way I would like to be treated, I have never and will never knowingly go to a gig without my gear and simply expect someone to bail me out.
Will I lend someone any item of equipment that fails in an emergency? Yes. Once again that me treating people the way I would like to be treated. Some numbskull bashing on a crash cymbal that cracks is not an emergency, the gig will go on regardless. Someone having a chain snap on a pedal or going through a snare head is. Obviously there's nuance to this too, if the snare head simply failed or wore out then fair enough, if the drummer is playing with knackered old sticks or stabbing the drum then he reaps what he sows.
 
The curiously sad part of the discussion for me is watching people get judged as being "materialistic" and "obsessed with things" based on a few statements made on an internet forum....

No personal relationship, no face-to-face knowledge of the persons life habits. No real-life observations of behavior that would justify the charge... Just "I don't loan out my gear" and "you have a problem with things". For all anyone knows the person could be volunteering 20 hours a week at a homeless shelter, or giving sacrificial donations to good causes. But....not loaning out your gear? Oh you shallow, selfish, bastard!

Pretty heavy charge Comrades....
 
Dr_Watso said:
None of my friends or the people who play music around here are rich enough that they don't care about money or value their stuff. We just value personal relationships and being a good person to those around you more than we value stuff or money, and accept some minor risk. Some guys are more careful than others, and put warnings out and make sure to specify "if you use my stuff, and break it, you need to replace it", but we all make fun of guys who come to shows and get all precious about their stuff to the point where they can't bear to do a kit share or loan a part that broke on someone's setup. It comes across as obsessive, neurotic nonsense. In every case that's happened, one of the other drummers or myself stepped right up because our priorities are not hinged on material stuff. Our priority is having fun, making music, and making friends.

Nice guys do get walked on sometimes, but at least they aren't the asshole in the room.
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Call me all the names you want, but I no longer loan out my gear unless I know the person well, and sometimes not even then. $100 is a BIG TICKET item for me.
 
Mozart1220 said:
Call me all the names you want, but I no longer loan out my gear unless I know the person well, and sometimes not even then. $100 is a BIG TICKET item for me.
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Nice try. I did not call you any names. I'm quite clearly speaking in generalizations, and merely putting out how this behavior comes across to the majority of musicians I know and work with. If you're taking it personally, it's probably because you know already how it's perceived. It appears you came here specifically to defend the practice of total refusal to help anyone else in the gear department because you're afraid your stuff won't be perfect afterwards.

It's also weird that we have people getting uppity about the word "materialistic" when they are literally meeting the definition I just looked up. 100 or whatever amount of dollars being more important than helping the people around you is a totally foreign concept to me... Even when I might not have 100 in the bank for whatever reason(screw you, dentist).

Anyway, it's not like any minds will change here. I'll continue helping anyone I can whenever I can, and whoever else wants to can value their stuff more and accept how people will view them(which in the end only matters if you care). Like I said, getting burned a few times being the nice guy is bound to happen... But that shouldn't change your mind about how you treat those around you, or make you assume everyone you help will screw you... It's simply not true.

And to be clear, if the guy "mic dropping" someone else' stuff got punched in the nose, I wouldn't lose sleep. There's a difference between accidentally causing some damage and being disrespectful of other people's stuff you're borrowing.
 
Mongrel said:
The curiously sad part of the discussion for me is watching people get judged as being "materialistic" and "obsessed with things" based on a few statements made on an internet forum....

No personal relationship, no face-to-face knowledge of the persons life habits. No real-life observations of behavior that would justify the charge... Just "I don't loan out my gear" and "you have a problem with things". For all anyone knows the person could be volunteering 20 hours a week at a homeless shelter, or giving sacrificial donations to good causes. But....not loaning out your gear? Oh you shallow, selfish, bastard!

Pretty heavy charge Comrades....
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You can definitely be materialistic and selfish with your stuff while also being unselfish with your time and efforts, but it's not something I've ever witnessed. The guys I've met who like to be generous are generous as a rule, not only with certain parts of their life. It's also possible for some people to be un-selfish but for selfish reasons.
 
If I am gear sharing its usually decided BEFORE the gig. I then bring my cheap drumset and let guys hit it.. I don't change the heads as often or sometimes will put new heads on my "main kit" and move them to this guy if they still sound good.

We we gear share due to venue size (which happens often) we bring our own breakables. (snare, throne, pedal, cymbals, sticks)

Cymbals - super expensive and break
Pedals - expensive and everyone likes their own settings
sticks - break and personal sizes
Throne - butt sweat and seat height
snare - $$$$ and sound

This could be said for kick and toms but it's not as serious. I will say if it's a house kit ASK the sound guy / venue if you can tune it. If its my kit, you better be asking me. If I see a drum key come out I will stop you in your tracks before you touch it to a lug... I'd expect the same from any other drummer. We can have a discussion, if you want to make a minor adjustment I am usually ok. Or if I know you and know you can tune very good I'll gladly let you give em a tuneup haha.

My main kit I use when we headline/backline/record etc. It's a NO before they are even set up. If someone wants to sit at my house and play a few grooves fine, but I have my bass triggers, pedal settings, heights, angles all set up for me. You can't be adjusting things. If my band let someone go rip on my drums for a set ,,,, well it wouldn't happen. Same as I wouldn't loan out a guitar without asking.

Those guys would be out of my phone contacts and I'd be with someone else pretty quick after that. Gear is expensive and we are all a little possessive our or drums (babies)

My cheap kit or my Rolands I'll let people bang away on all day though... I have just had too many bad experiences where an opening band will break something or mess something up and then it makes me look bad for my gig. The fast metal stuff I play is a game of inches so to say and if head tension, beater distances, spring tension, angles, or anything else get messed up it can effect it a bit.
 
Why has this turned into a shit slinging contest.

If you don't want someone to use your kit fine.

If you're cool with someone using your kit fine.

The definitive word being YOUR indicating ownership and with that comes the right to do with your kit as you wish.
 
mikyok said:
Why has this turned into a shit slinging contest.

If you don't want someone to use your kit fine.

If you're cool with someone using your kit fine.

The definitive word being YOUR indicating ownership and with that comes the right to do with your kit as you wish.
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Exactly .
 
I'm really surprised how close to home this hit to so many people on here. But I think a lot of you guys are missing the point. It's like justjames said, another musician offered to lend gear that wasn't his to offer. Most of the arguments on here are targeted at whether or not drummers should lend their equipment, but that's not really the situation under debate

With that being said, you can't judge someone for not lending their gear? If it's their gear then they can do what they want with it, and shouldn't be judged about it. Guitarist are lucky because they usually never have to lend out their equipment, same with bassist. Piano players may lend their stuff sometimes, but how often do you see a piano player break an instrument by playing too hard. Drums are probably the most physically active instrument in the world, we literally hit things really hard that's worth a lot of money. If you have a bad experience with someone breaking your drums then obviously you'll be a lot more hesitant about lending stuff in the future.

My original post on here was that you should be as pleasant as you can in these situations. If you know you'll need to borrow drums, then let the other drummers know a couple of weeks in advance, and if possible bring your own cymbals and snare. If you are nice to everyone they will be much more likely to help you out (including these guys who say they wouldn't lend a kit), but if you're rude or inconsiderate or obnoxious then why would anyone invite you back out to play with them again. Just my thoughts
 
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