toddbishop
Platinum Member
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
Thanks, B— so the context isn't lost, here's what I was responding to below:
Thanks, B— so the context isn't lost, here's what I was responding to below:
What's your opinion on open-handed drumming?
- Thread starter RevWrona
- Start date
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
Sorry, I've also (significantly) added to my prior post.
Sorry, I've also (significantly) added to my prior post.
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
Maybe this is something I should do to my daughter's piano...
Or not.
I'm against this school of thought. If the mind needs to be 'tricked' into playing something different, perhaps there is something else going on, that is causing 'stock licks' to be reused.
Re: to open or not to open...
Drummers are as unique as a fingerprint. There is no right or wrong way for everybody. There is only right and wrong FOR YOU. BUT - the only way to figure that out, is to explore the boundaries of possibility. If you believe you as good as you could possibly get, and meet all of your goals/challenges. Good for you. If not (like me), I constantly explore new techniques to self-improve.
Maybe this is something I should do to my daughter's piano...
Or not.
I'm against this school of thought. If the mind needs to be 'tricked' into playing something different, perhaps there is something else going on, that is causing 'stock licks' to be reused.
Re: to open or not to open...
Drummers are as unique as a fingerprint. There is no right or wrong way for everybody. There is only right and wrong FOR YOU. BUT - the only way to figure that out, is to explore the boundaries of possibility. If you believe you as good as you could possibly get, and meet all of your goals/challenges. Good for you. If not (like me), I constantly explore new techniques to self-improve.
MattRitter
Senior Member
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
As I mentioned in my first post, it seems that there's not much left to debate about open-handed drumming. It's already here, and many of the people practicing it ARE feeling a benefit from it. They have said so themselves. We've seen this stated in countless posts right here on Drummer World. Numerous forum members have stated that they practice open-handed drumming and that they feel a noticeable benefit from it. So what is left to debate? Why should anybody be trying to tell these people that what they're practicing is NOT having a positive effect, or what they're practicing is too difficult, or what they're practicing is a waste of time, etc. etc. etc.? Shouldn't this all be determined by the people who are doing the practicing and experiencing the results?
It is clear that open-handed drumming is becoming more and more prevalent every week. Just since writing my last post less than a month ago, I have now seen Mark Schulman (drummer for Pink) playing open-handed, and I have read an article about Pat Torpey (drummer for Mr. Big) playing open-handed. I also recently read an interview with Travis Barker talking about practicing open-handed drumming now! So this concept is definitely growing and spreading, and more and more people are practicing it and noticing that they get some benefit from it. At this point, does it really make sense to keep saying it's actually not a good idea for these people to be doing this? To my way of thinking, if someone practices open-handed drumming and finds that it does nothing positive for their personal drumming skills, then of course, that person should stop practicing it. On the other hand...if someone practices open-handed drumming and finds that it DOES do something positive for their playing, then by all means, I would encourage that person to stick with it.
As I mentioned in my first post, it seems that there's not much left to debate about open-handed drumming. It's already here, and many of the people practicing it ARE feeling a benefit from it. They have said so themselves. We've seen this stated in countless posts right here on Drummer World. Numerous forum members have stated that they practice open-handed drumming and that they feel a noticeable benefit from it. So what is left to debate? Why should anybody be trying to tell these people that what they're practicing is NOT having a positive effect, or what they're practicing is too difficult, or what they're practicing is a waste of time, etc. etc. etc.? Shouldn't this all be determined by the people who are doing the practicing and experiencing the results?
It is clear that open-handed drumming is becoming more and more prevalent every week. Just since writing my last post less than a month ago, I have now seen Mark Schulman (drummer for Pink) playing open-handed, and I have read an article about Pat Torpey (drummer for Mr. Big) playing open-handed. I also recently read an interview with Travis Barker talking about practicing open-handed drumming now! So this concept is definitely growing and spreading, and more and more people are practicing it and noticing that they get some benefit from it. At this point, does it really make sense to keep saying it's actually not a good idea for these people to be doing this? To my way of thinking, if someone practices open-handed drumming and finds that it does nothing positive for their personal drumming skills, then of course, that person should stop practicing it. On the other hand...if someone practices open-handed drumming and finds that it DOES do something positive for their playing, then by all means, I would encourage that person to stick with it.
Swiss Matthias
Platinum Member
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
When an experienced drummer and pro practices OH drumming, I guess he can keep
his ride cymbal on his right side.
If a beginner starts with OH playing, he has to mount his ride to his left. This may be
a little disadvantage, because he has to switch cymbals every time he sits on a foreign
drumset.
Still not so bad as a complete lefty, who has to switch everything around.
When an experienced drummer and pro practices OH drumming, I guess he can keep
his ride cymbal on his right side.
If a beginner starts with OH playing, he has to mount his ride to his left. This may be
a little disadvantage, because he has to switch cymbals every time he sits on a foreign
drumset.
Still not so bad as a complete lefty, who has to switch everything around.
Jeff Almeyda
Senior Consultant
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
In the end, I don't care how you do it. Due to the incredible plasticity of the brain, practically any function can be taken over another system. Recent discoveries in neuroscience have uncovered instances far more impressive than someone playing lefty. Take the example of the little girl who had half of her brain removed due to life threatening seizures. Incredibly, the remaining half of the brain rewired itself and took over the entirety of the brains function. She is perfectly normal except for the fact that she literally has half a brain.
All ergonomic issues aside, if you have a clear cut idea in your head of what you want to sound like and you can make that a reality then you are on the right track. Crossed hands, open hands whatever...
In the end, I don't care how you do it. Due to the incredible plasticity of the brain, practically any function can be taken over another system. Recent discoveries in neuroscience have uncovered instances far more impressive than someone playing lefty. Take the example of the little girl who had half of her brain removed due to life threatening seizures. Incredibly, the remaining half of the brain rewired itself and took over the entirety of the brains function. She is perfectly normal except for the fact that she literally has half a brain.
All ergonomic issues aside, if you have a clear cut idea in your head of what you want to sound like and you can make that a reality then you are on the right track. Crossed hands, open hands whatever...
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
With all due respect, Matt, any time anyone says "there's nothing left to debate", there's often an effort to close the door on discussion prematurely.
But, perhaps we need to stop characterising this as a "debate" and more as a "discussion". That's certainly how I view it. I'm not here to tell anyone not to practice playing open-handed. That'd be hypocritical of me. However, there is a huge gulf between something giving benefit under certain conditions and something being optimum as an all-encompassing approach.
What I'm trying to get at is that we probably need to know a lot more about how the brain learns movement within the confines of limb dominance if we're going to optimize the way that we learn to play our instruments. As I asked above, what role does having a highly developed dominant side play in outcomes of open-handed practice? Guys like Schulman, Barker, etc. already have not only heavily developed abilities using a dominant side approach, they also have a high level of functionality in their non-dominant limbs already. In many ways, they aren't much evidence of anything regarding pedagogy. If they were, then we should say that everyone should start out with the dominant side approach and later shift to open-handed playing.
I make this point because - contrary to your reported experience - I find that many young beginners have a real problem with learning to play open-handed from the get go. Perhaps it's my methods, but I'm not ready to admit that it's my fault, yet.
Of course, we know that motor development in children is not complete even by their early teens. So again, I think we come back to the issue of context: who is doing the open-handed learning? An established professional? An intermediate? Or a 9-year old rank beginner? Are the conditions different for each individual?
With all due respect, Matt, any time anyone says "there's nothing left to debate", there's often an effort to close the door on discussion prematurely.
But, perhaps we need to stop characterising this as a "debate" and more as a "discussion". That's certainly how I view it. I'm not here to tell anyone not to practice playing open-handed. That'd be hypocritical of me. However, there is a huge gulf between something giving benefit under certain conditions and something being optimum as an all-encompassing approach.
What I'm trying to get at is that we probably need to know a lot more about how the brain learns movement within the confines of limb dominance if we're going to optimize the way that we learn to play our instruments. As I asked above, what role does having a highly developed dominant side play in outcomes of open-handed practice? Guys like Schulman, Barker, etc. already have not only heavily developed abilities using a dominant side approach, they also have a high level of functionality in their non-dominant limbs already. In many ways, they aren't much evidence of anything regarding pedagogy. If they were, then we should say that everyone should start out with the dominant side approach and later shift to open-handed playing.
I make this point because - contrary to your reported experience - I find that many young beginners have a real problem with learning to play open-handed from the get go. Perhaps it's my methods, but I'm not ready to admit that it's my fault, yet.
Of course, we know that motor development in children is not complete even by their early teens. So again, I think we come back to the issue of context: who is doing the open-handed learning? An established professional? An intermediate? Or a 9-year old rank beginner? Are the conditions different for each individual?
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Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
We're largely in agreement here, except on the matter of brain plasticity. Yes, our brains are far more plastic than previously known. But I've not seen evidence that limb dominance is one of the features that can be readily changed/adapted.
Also, there are a number of facts in the girl's case that make the question a bit more complex. For starters, the underlying condition that gave rise to her surgery is one in which she was essentially missing her corpus callosum. We weren't dealing with a "normal" brain to begin with.
Another factor is her age. Young children's brains are far more elastic than adults or even teens. "Old dogs and new tricks...." Also, she's not entirely "normal" from a physical perspective. She has a limp, needs a brace on her left leg (which I think is her non-dominant side), has trouble with fine motor skills on her left side, etc. Why I think this is interesting is that we know that limb dominance is prenatal and that motor control works bi-laterally. Without half her brain, her non-dominant side is still not able to function normally. We'll have to see if that changes with more time/therapy.
In general we agree completely: whatever gets the job done. I'm mostly interested in this from the point of view of understanding exactly how our brains go about learning movement, not from any need to push one style of playing over any other. I want to make my life and that of my students as easy as possible.
We're largely in agreement here, except on the matter of brain plasticity. Yes, our brains are far more plastic than previously known. But I've not seen evidence that limb dominance is one of the features that can be readily changed/adapted.
Also, there are a number of facts in the girl's case that make the question a bit more complex. For starters, the underlying condition that gave rise to her surgery is one in which she was essentially missing her corpus callosum. We weren't dealing with a "normal" brain to begin with.
Another factor is her age. Young children's brains are far more elastic than adults or even teens. "Old dogs and new tricks...." Also, she's not entirely "normal" from a physical perspective. She has a limp, needs a brace on her left leg (which I think is her non-dominant side), has trouble with fine motor skills on her left side, etc. Why I think this is interesting is that we know that limb dominance is prenatal and that motor control works bi-laterally. Without half her brain, her non-dominant side is still not able to function normally. We'll have to see if that changes with more time/therapy.
In general we agree completely: whatever gets the job done. I'm mostly interested in this from the point of view of understanding exactly how our brains go about learning movement, not from any need to push one style of playing over any other. I want to make my life and that of my students as easy as possible.
MattRitter
Senior Member
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
Yeah, I agree that there's no reason to stop the discussion if there's still something for all of us to learn from it. When I said "there's nothing left to debate," I meant that I don't see how we can argue with a person who claims to be practicing open-handed drumming and getting good results from it. In other words, what is there to debate with that? If the person reports their experience as such, then how can we tell them that they are incorrect? That would basically mean calling them a liar, which is obviously inappropriate. The benefits of open-handed drumming need to be determined by each individual, and certain individuals here have already stated that they definitively find a benefit from this practice.
Definitely. That's why my first post in this thread said "I propose that we...practice it to whatever degree we think it can add to our personal drumming vocabulary." I think this is something each person must decide for themself. Perhaps we agree on this one.
I haven't actually reported anything about my teaching concepts or their results in this thread. Perhaps you're thinking back to some threads from years past??? In any case, you're right that some open-handed concepts are part of my general curriculum. Beyond that simple statement, I can't really say much more about the specifics of my teaching approach because it's too darn hard to summarize in a short space like this. I've been developing an extensive curriculum for the past 16 years. This has been the result of a little less than 500 students and an estimated 10,000 to 11,000 lesson hours. So, it has really been a gradual development over the course of a pretty extreme teaching career. In the process, I have made many personal discoveries about what seems to work best for myself and my students...but all of that would require numerous other threads to really get into. And even then, I doubt that I could fully explain it all. The people who "get" my teaching approach are the ones who actually study with me over a period of time. In other words, it needs to be experienced more than talked about...like a lot of things in life.
Yeah, context is everything, isn't it? This stuff needs to be tailored to each individual and their personal goals, abilities, and preferences. Again, that's why "I propose that we...practice it to whatever degree we think it can add to our personal drumming vocabulary." It really seems like we're in agreement on this point.
Yeah, I agree that there's no reason to stop the discussion if there's still something for all of us to learn from it. When I said "there's nothing left to debate," I meant that I don't see how we can argue with a person who claims to be practicing open-handed drumming and getting good results from it. In other words, what is there to debate with that? If the person reports their experience as such, then how can we tell them that they are incorrect? That would basically mean calling them a liar, which is obviously inappropriate. The benefits of open-handed drumming need to be determined by each individual, and certain individuals here have already stated that they definitively find a benefit from this practice.
Definitely. That's why my first post in this thread said "I propose that we...practice it to whatever degree we think it can add to our personal drumming vocabulary." I think this is something each person must decide for themself. Perhaps we agree on this one.
I make this point because - contrary to your reported experience - I find that many young beginners have a real problem with learning to play open-handed from the get go. Perhaps it's my methods, but I'm not ready to admit that it's my fault, yet.
I haven't actually reported anything about my teaching concepts or their results in this thread. Perhaps you're thinking back to some threads from years past??? In any case, you're right that some open-handed concepts are part of my general curriculum. Beyond that simple statement, I can't really say much more about the specifics of my teaching approach because it's too darn hard to summarize in a short space like this. I've been developing an extensive curriculum for the past 16 years. This has been the result of a little less than 500 students and an estimated 10,000 to 11,000 lesson hours. So, it has really been a gradual development over the course of a pretty extreme teaching career. In the process, I have made many personal discoveries about what seems to work best for myself and my students...but all of that would require numerous other threads to really get into. And even then, I doubt that I could fully explain it all. The people who "get" my teaching approach are the ones who actually study with me over a period of time. In other words, it needs to be experienced more than talked about...like a lot of things in life.
Yeah, context is everything, isn't it? This stuff needs to be tailored to each individual and their personal goals, abilities, and preferences. Again, that's why "I propose that we...practice it to whatever degree we think it can add to our personal drumming vocabulary." It really seems like we're in agreement on this point.
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Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
Yeah, I'm thinking of some conversations from long, long ago (in interwebz time...)
You'll have to forgive my laziness. I haven't gone through the entire thread jumped right in the other day. Sorry you've had to repeat yourself. We're not really that far apart on this.
That said, I do think that Todd has a point. After a certain tipping point, there may be things that need to take precedence over reengineering one's entire approach to the instrument. Once you've gone down a road so far... But, I think this is - as you say - a matter of individual needs and goals.
Yeah, I'm thinking of some conversations from long, long ago (in interwebz time...)
You'll have to forgive my laziness. I haven't gone through the entire thread jumped right in the other day. Sorry you've had to repeat yourself. We're not really that far apart on this.
That said, I do think that Todd has a point. After a certain tipping point, there may be things that need to take precedence over reengineering one's entire approach to the instrument. Once you've gone down a road so far... But, I think this is - as you say - a matter of individual needs and goals.
Deathmetalconga
Platinum Member
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
I agree, it is better to play with the ride cymbal on the left, next to the hats. Otherwise you have to retrain your right hand to play patterns that your left hand does already. Plus, if you play the ride on the left, you have your right hand open for drumming on the snare and toms.
I agree, it is better to play with the ride cymbal on the left, next to the hats. Otherwise you have to retrain your right hand to play patterns that your left hand does already. Plus, if you play the ride on the left, you have your right hand open for drumming on the snare and toms.
Anon La Ply
Diamond Member
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
As discussed, there are advantages and disadvantages either way - starting to think of the trad / matched chats we've had - tomayto, tomarto.
Just like to clarify - are we talking about committing exclusively to open handed drumming instead of crossing over, or as an extra facility? Big difference.
As discussed, there are advantages and disadvantages either way - starting to think of the trad / matched chats we've had - tomayto, tomarto.
Just like to clarify - are we talking about committing exclusively to open handed drumming instead of crossing over, or as an extra facility? Big difference.
Deathmetalconga
Platinum Member
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
That is a good distinction. Many people confuser open-handed playing with ambidexterity. While doing anything open leads to easier movement, playing open is not at all the same as ambidexterity. I have always played open and I am pretty rigid in my assigned hand roles. My left hand plays hats and ride 99 percent of the time, my right hand plays snare 99 percent of the time and both may play crash and toms.
That is a good distinction. Many people confuser open-handed playing with ambidexterity. While doing anything open leads to easier movement, playing open is not at all the same as ambidexterity. I have always played open and I am pretty rigid in my assigned hand roles. My left hand plays hats and ride 99 percent of the time, my right hand plays snare 99 percent of the time and both may play crash and toms.
MattRitter
Senior Member
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
You're correct that open-handed drumming is not the same as ambidextrous drumming. However, I think there are numerous good reasons why people often associate the 2 with each other:
* One of the first people to talk about open-handed drumming was Jim Chapin in the intro of his 1948 book. He doesn't call it "open-handed drumming," but he talks about leading on the hi-hat with one's left hand. In discussing this, he specifies that he wants the people using his book to practice leading with BOTH hands.
* One of the first major drum stars to play open-handed was Billy Cobham. Billy actually IS ambidextrous to some extent, since he can occasionally be seen leading with his right hand as well as his left.
* Another of the first major drum stars to play open-handed was Simon Phillips. Simon started out playing "righty," and he developed a high playing level that way. Later, he switched to playing "lefty" because he was inspired by Billy as well as Lenny White. The result, of course, was that he now ended up being somewhat ambidextrous. Like Billy, he can be seen leading with either hand.
* In the 80's, Gary Chester came out with The New Breed, one of the most famous drum books ever written. In the intro, he talks about leading with both hands, and he specifies that the exercises in his book should be practiced that way. Incidentally, he uses the term "open arms" as opposed to "open-handed."
* In recent years, with guys like Dom Famularo spreading the word so passionately, a lot of drummers are now trying out open-handed drumming. Many of these people have already played the drums cross-handed for years, so as a result, we are starting to end up with a large number of people who can play BOTH ways.
DMC, I can understand why you point out that open-handed drumming does not necessarily mean ambidextrous drumming. You happen to be a person who started out playing open and have played exclusively that way right along. At least, that is my understanding from your posts over the years. And so, in your case, open-handed drumming has nothing to do with ambidexterity. Still, it is interesting to note that there IS actually a historical (and current) connection between open-handed drumming and ambidexterity, due to the factors I listed above.
You're correct that open-handed drumming is not the same as ambidextrous drumming. However, I think there are numerous good reasons why people often associate the 2 with each other:
* One of the first people to talk about open-handed drumming was Jim Chapin in the intro of his 1948 book. He doesn't call it "open-handed drumming," but he talks about leading on the hi-hat with one's left hand. In discussing this, he specifies that he wants the people using his book to practice leading with BOTH hands.
* One of the first major drum stars to play open-handed was Billy Cobham. Billy actually IS ambidextrous to some extent, since he can occasionally be seen leading with his right hand as well as his left.
* Another of the first major drum stars to play open-handed was Simon Phillips. Simon started out playing "righty," and he developed a high playing level that way. Later, he switched to playing "lefty" because he was inspired by Billy as well as Lenny White. The result, of course, was that he now ended up being somewhat ambidextrous. Like Billy, he can be seen leading with either hand.
* In the 80's, Gary Chester came out with The New Breed, one of the most famous drum books ever written. In the intro, he talks about leading with both hands, and he specifies that the exercises in his book should be practiced that way. Incidentally, he uses the term "open arms" as opposed to "open-handed."
* In recent years, with guys like Dom Famularo spreading the word so passionately, a lot of drummers are now trying out open-handed drumming. Many of these people have already played the drums cross-handed for years, so as a result, we are starting to end up with a large number of people who can play BOTH ways.
DMC, I can understand why you point out that open-handed drumming does not necessarily mean ambidextrous drumming. You happen to be a person who started out playing open and have played exclusively that way right along. At least, that is my understanding from your posts over the years. And so, in your case, open-handed drumming has nothing to do with ambidexterity. Still, it is interesting to note that there IS actually a historical (and current) connection between open-handed drumming and ambidexterity, due to the factors I listed above.
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
This Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgxcTINB-wc
would probably be somewhat impractical to play on a standard kit with right hand on the high hat. Ive read that the original drummer actually learned to play open handed just for this song.
This Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgxcTINB-wc
would probably be somewhat impractical to play on a standard kit with right hand on the high hat. Ive read that the original drummer actually learned to play open handed just for this song.
mattyfatty76
Member
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
I have always played open handed; it was just natural for me. I felt that it just made sense to primarily play pieces on the right side of the kit with my right hand and the left side with my left my hand. My teachers throughout the years encouraged it too.
Everyone that plays with their arms crossed just looks plain silly to me.
I have always played open handed; it was just natural for me. I felt that it just made sense to primarily play pieces on the right side of the kit with my right hand and the left side with my left my hand. My teachers throughout the years encouraged it too.
Everyone that plays with their arms crossed just looks plain silly to me.
A
Anthony Amodeo
Guest
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
I love the fact that the best drummers on the planet look silly to you
thats awesome
I have always played open handed; it was just natural for me. I felt that it just made sense to primarily play pieces on the right side of the kit with my right hand and the left side with my left my hand. My teachers throughout the years encouraged it too.
Everyone that plays with their arms crossed just looks plain silly to me.
I love the fact that the best drummers on the planet look silly to you
thats awesome
mattyfatty76
Member
Re: Whats your opinion on open-handed drumming?
I'm glad you like it.
Not "all" of the best drummers on the planet look silly to me...just the ones that cross their arms.
I'm glad you like it.
Not "all" of the best drummers on the planet look silly to me...just the ones that cross their arms.