The pros and cons ... or the cons of pros

dale w miller said:
I am not going to blow anyone's cover, but I know for a fact that there are plenty of well known "Pro Drummers" whose life is not as grandiose as some would assume as I did before. A lot do not have health insurance, are living in homes that were willed to them, have other forms of income etc., but they don't let it on because it ruins the image.
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Shhh, this was our little secret! :)

Seriously, this is true, and a bit surprising in some cases. The concept of success is very subjective, somewhat relative, and may not necessarily mean financial success. With regard to the topic, there's often a wide gap between fame and financial success. Someone who's well-known may consider themselves successful for their 'fame', but may also share a small apartment with a roommate, play sporadically, and be in serious debt. Not that there's anything wrong with all of that... you just don't expect it from someone who's got a 'name', their picture on company web sites, is regarded as a full-time working pro, and you imagine them driving up to the studio in their Mercedes (or Lamborghini, take your pick.) It's more likely they're humping their own gear from the back of their wife's minivan to play a gig for $35.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

FWIW, I have a Toyota truck and make $40. :)

Bermuda
 
bermuda said:
Shhh, this was our little secret! :)

Seriously, this is true, and a bit surprising in some cases. The concept of success is very subjective, somewhat relative, and may not necessarily mean financial success. With regard to the topic, there's often a wide gap between fame and financial success. Someone who's well-known may consider themselves successful for their 'fame', but may also share a small apartment with a roommate, play sporadically, and be in serious debt. Not that there's anything wrong with all of that... you just don't expect it from someone who's got a 'name', their picture on company web sites, is regarded as a full-time working pro, and you imagine them driving up to the studio in their Mercedes (or Lamborghini, take your pick.) It's more likely they're humping their own gear from the back of their wife's minivan to play a gig for $35.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

FWIW, I have a Toyota truck and make $40. :)

Bermuda
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Bless all of you pros. You give us all something to strive for! Really. ;)
 
bermuda said:
Shhh, this was our little secret! :)

Seriously, this is true, and a bit surprising in some cases. The concept of success is very subjective, somewhat relative, and may not necessarily mean financial success. With regard to the topic, there's often a wide gap between fame and financial success. Someone who's well-known may consider themselves successful for their 'fame', but may also share a small apartment with a roommate, play sporadically, and be in serious debt. Not that there's anything wrong with all of that... you just don't expect it from someone who's got a 'name', their picture on company web sites, is regarded as a full-time working pro, and you imagine them driving up to the studio in their Mercedes (or Lamborghini, take your pick.) It's more likely they're humping their own gear from the back of their wife's minivan to play a gig for $35.

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

FWIW, I have a Toyota truck and make $40. :)

Bermuda
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I am glad you agree. I just feel sometimes at my level, it appears I am crying foul sometimes. In fact, I just do not play the games & have always been truthful with everyone. Ultimately the fans do not know who is really living comfortably from music. Even when you are an endorsing & touring artist, a lot of times it's just a matter of one past gig between being on one side or other of the signature table at NAMM. :)
 
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Music is a struggle, but then again getting fired from your job after 30 years because your benefits are costing the company too much money is no walk in the park either. I guess I shouldn't let the relentless negativity get on my nerves- if everyone was always bright and cheery and giving lots of encouragement, even more people would be pursuing music, making the situation that much more intolerable. But I reached a tipping point with this crap some months back, and made it a policy not to talk any more about how much everything sucks. It's a drag when it comes from players, but I really just don't want to hear about it from people who failed at it or gave up.

Despite the difficult financial picture, there are a ton of great things happening to people I know, and to me- an Emmy-nominated project, a big New York Times writeup, Grammy nominations, drum magazine pieces, industry honors, substantial grants, more tours than I can keep track of going to every part of the world, and a lot more routine successes. These are not well-known or even the most gifted players- these are just local and regional guys persevering at doing stuff.
 
toddbishop said:
Music is a struggle, but then again getting fired from your job after 30 years because your benefits are costing the company too much money is no walk in the park either. I guess I shouldn't let the relentless negativity get on my nerves- if everyone was always bright and cheery and giving lots of encouragement, even more people would be pursuing music, making the situation that much more intolerable. But I reached a tipping point with this crap some months back, and made it a policy not to talk any more about how much everything sucks. It's a drag when it comes from players, but I really just don't want to hear about it from people who failed at it or gave up.

Despite the difficult financial picture, there are a ton of great things happening to people I know, and to me- an Emmy-nominated project, a big New York Times writeup, Grammy nominations, drum magazine pieces, industry honors, substantial grants, more tours than I can keep track of going to every part of the world, and a lot more routine successes. These are not well-known or even the most gifted players- these are just local and regional guys persevering at doing stuff.
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I am in no way discouraging anyone. I am just all about sharing my reality, which for some reason other than my father telling me it's all about "who you know", no one gave me any guidance, not even my school. They are a music school so of course they are going to continue to blow smoke up your ass until you graduate. Fortunately, I figured it out while I was there but realized sticking it out and getting a degree was smarter while postponing the inevitable of becoming a starving artist at some point.

For me, I just figured that in order to keep music fresh and artistic, it's best I keep it where it is now. The point where I was making most money playing music, I found myself the most artistically unsatisfied. I do not know why, but it seems to walk hand in hand that way for me. Now when I am on tour and I have a new record out like the 2 I have coming out this year, great there is money to be made. To each there own, but I am not going to play in some wedding band, play for some local lame singer/song-writer for $125/gig or teach 50 students in between that time just so I don't have to call myself a semi-pro. I still do plenty of great things, many similar to you and for the most part they go unrecognized. I just chalk it up as something to tell the grandkids sort of like this day during Fashion Week at Bryant Park.

Hendi2001-s.jpg


Oops, I didn't just show you that did I? ;)
 
I'm 21 and spent a lot of time last year thinking about playing professionally. One of my friends (a business executive) told me to first define goals, THEN compare options. This forced me to take a close look at what my goals are as a musician.

1. Play drums at a professional level. This means maintaining my ideal practice routine (2-3hrs per day) for at least a few more years, hopefully much longer. I know a lot of people aren't into this, but I absolutely love working on technique and strange coordination problems - perhaps more than I actually like playing music - so, having a lifestyle with time to practice is critical.

2. Play with other skilled musicians - people that I WANT to play with.

3. Make music I want to listen to.

4. Teach other people how to play.

Keeping those goals in mind, I concluded, ironically, that being a professional drummer was not the best choice. I've dealt with a handful of teachers - even some very famous drummers - and they all told me about how stressful it was to find gigs and pay the bills. They were usually playing on pop records or touring with country bands. They struggle to maintain a practice space, much less regular practice routines. They might have back problems from hauling gear. Overall, they seemed very jaded and exhausted. Interestingly, they were also usually in the process of giving up on bad gigs and trying to make it a new way - making good music and teaching more students.

I feel that my decision not to be a pro drummer will actually enable me to practice more and play the music I want to play. Seriously - there are other ways to make money - and they don't all exclude playing at a professional level. Mostly, it's about lifestyle decisions - getting enough rest, eating right, staying out of trouble, etc. When it comes to choosing a job, you have to keep those goals on the top - that means saying no to a lot of opportunities that would be too draining or time consuming to allow drumming to remain a top priority.

And - I can't remember who said this - but somebody was saying younger musicians need to pay attention to this kind of thing. I couldn't agree more! A lot of my friends are racking up debt in music school. What are they going to do when they graduate? Nobody seems to know.

On the other hand, some of my friends are all excited by the idea of playing bar shows and "making it" that way. I'll be blunt: WHAT A JOKE. You want me to load my gear into your rusty van, travel for 5 hrs, set up in a dirty bar, and play "Sweet Home Alabama" for $75 a night? No thanks, dude. I'll spend that time with a metronome.

I want to point out that this isn't just a drummer's problem, either. This is art in general. It's very serious - there are many, many skilled players, writers, painters, and so on who have become so frustrated that they've given up playing altogether. AND THAT SUCKS.

Honestly, I'm shocked that nobody has even mentioned the idea that this is a systemic problem. Obviously, it's not our lack of skill, or lack of motivation, or lack of intelligence keeping us from playing music. Literally, we're being denied the lifestyles we deserve - one of the deepest, most meaningful parts of ourselves (music) - because it doesn't play a good enough role in some kind of profit-creating economic drive. Really, that's the bottom of the whole discussion: We've been thrown out of the global economy because we literally can't play under its terms. And, until we come to fully accept that the current mechanisms of resource management necessarily alienate us from our art, we will continue to lose work, continue to "struggle to pay the bills," continue to play bad gigs, and continue to deny ourselves the time we owe to our instruments, to ourselves, and to our audiences.

With all this in mind, my role as a musician has become exceedingly clear: Find a way to play as much as I like, and enable others to do the same.
 
dale w miller said:
I am in no way discouraging anyone. I am just all about sharing my reality, which for some reason other than my father telling me it's all about "who you know", no one gave me any guidance, not even my school.
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That's OK, I was directing my comment more at the barrage of negativity from earlier in the thread. You can only read and listen to so much of that.

For me, I just figured that in order to keep music fresh and artistic, it's best I keep it where it is now. The point where I was making most money playing music, I found myself the most artistically unsatisfied. I do not know why, but it seems to walk hand in hand that way for me. Now when I am on tour and I have a new record out like the 2 I have coming out this year, great there is money to be made. To each there own, but I am not going to play in some wedding band, play for some local lame singer/song-writer for $125/gig or teach 50 students in between that time just so I don't have to call myself a semi-pro.
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Again, I guess I should encourage this attitude- it will leave more for those of us who do want musical work. My view has always been that musicians do gigs, period.

I still do plenty of great things, many similar to you and for the most part they go unrecognized.
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Yep, that's the way most of it goes, but this is what we do. You keep at it.

I just chalk it up as something to tell the grandkids sort of like this day during Fashion Week at Bryant Park.
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Hmmm, no comment.
 
skreg said:
Honestly, I'm shocked that nobody has even mentioned the idea that this is a systemic problem.
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As far as I can tell, most of the systemic problem can be summed up as follows:

  • Gaming machines
  • Noise laws
  • DJs
  • Housing prices and globalisation (people have to work longer hours and have less leisure time)
  • Drum machines used in sessions.
Those things have decimated the music scene in Sydney. Every single venue I played in when I was young has either closed down or replaced music with gaming machines. Same with most of the venues I saw bigger bands play in back then.

Only the other day once of Sydney's favourite venues closed down. http://www.thevine.com.au/music/art...enue-the-hopetoun-hotel-closes-its-doors.aspx

Another one bites the dust ...
 
skreg said:
On the other hand, some of my friends are all excited by the idea of playing bar shows and "making it" that way. I'll be blunt: WHAT A JOKE. You want me to load my gear into your rusty van, travel for 5 hrs, set up in a dirty bar, and play "Sweet Home Alabama" for $75 a night? No thanks, dude. I'll spend that time with a metronome.
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Yes, exactly. If this is what faced me when I started out I have no idea what I'd have been doing for the last thirty-plus years of my life.

This is why I mourn the demise of the nightclub scene. Back then you had to play everything from jazz standards to Broadway show tunes to top 40 tunes, you had to be able to play everything and you were working for band leaders who wouldn't put up with you if you couldn't deliver.

For youngsters like me it was baptism by fire, six nights a week, week after week, month after month, until you'd been doing it for several years. Pull it off and you get a reputation and keep on working, fail and you don't work at all.

That doesn't happen anymore and it's a real shame. There were real opportunities back then to not only get your feet wet but to get them sopping wet and the next thing you knew you were living the life and playing the drums, playing every night in nightclubs where people would be dressed up and go to eat and drink and dance and be entertained. And all that led to bigger and better things and more money. No more. Things change and life goes on, of course.

I started in this business when I was eighteen years old in 1972. If I were eighteen years old now I have no idea what I'd do, none at all. Probably I'd stay in school and go to college to study music, I guess.

Edit: I don't mean at all to be negative about what faces young players today, not at all. The world I'm describing is what was there for me when I was a kid; I just don't know what things are life now for young musicians, which is why I was reluctant at first to post on this thread in the first place.
 
dale w miller said:
I am not going to blow anyone's cover, but I know for a fact that there are plenty of well known "Pro Drummers" whose life is not as grandiose as some would assume as I did before. A lot do not have health insurance, are living in homes that were willed to them, have other forms of income etc., but they don't let it on because it ruins the image.
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bermuda said:
Someone who's well-known may consider themselves successful for their 'fame', but may also share a small apartment with a roommate, play sporadically, and be in serious debt.
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Yeah, I've come across people in these situations. It's kind of weird at first, it's like "hey, didn't you have a hit albums a few years back? And now you live in crummy apartment with roommates?"

I suppose that's my consolation prize for not making it in the business, is it eventually forced me to get a job that allowed me to buy a house, get married, have kids.


dale w miller said:
PS Are you DED from drumsmith.com?
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Nope. Can't say I've ever visited that site. Really? There is another DrumEatDrum out there? Who knew. heh.
 
DrumEatDrum said:
Yeah, I've come across people in these situations. It's kind of weird at first, it's like "hey, didn't you have a hit albums a few years back? And now you live in crummy apartment with roommates?"

I suppose that's my consolation prize for not making it in the business, is it eventually forced me to get a job that allowed me to buy a house, get married, have kids.
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The thing I am talking about are ones who still appear as if they making a regular living. They are still in ads in MD and still in the signature line at NAMM.


DrumEatDrum said:
Nope. Can't say I've ever visited that site. Really? There is another DrumEatDrum out there? Who knew. heh.
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No, his name is simply DED.
 
dale w miller said:
The thing I am talking about are ones who still appear as if they making a regular living. They are still in ads in MD and still in the signature line at NAMM.
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Ah, gottcha. There are some people out there I do think from time to time, "how do you make ends meet, given lack of big albums or big tours?" But what do I know.

No, his name is simply DED.
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Wheeeww...... I know I stole the idea for the name from a t-shirt, but I thought it was still an obscure reference no one no one else would use it.
 
So, I was also considering playing drums for a living after college, but it seems like I would have more freedom and fun playing the drums if I had a steady income outside of drumming. Is this true in most cases? Because it sounds like drumming turns from being a blast to being a chore if you are a pro. I mean that is what the conversation seems to suggest... Anyways, what about being a semi-pro, like, you still play a lot more than person who gigs occasionally, but it is not your sole source of income (and working at Taco Bell is not your other job)?
 
Jazz+Ska! said:
... it seems like I would have more freedom and fun playing the drums if I had a steady income outside of drumming. Is this true in most cases? Because it sounds like drumming turns from being a blast to being a chore if you are a pro ...
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That's not necessarily true, it's really a matter of the drummer's perspective and level of frustration. Anybody can get burned out doing anything after a while. But if somones's 30 and complaining about their success, they have a bad perspective and are undoubtedly making life unpleasant for those around them (family, friends, other players.) They should find another line of work and leave the music to someone else who really wants it.

I'm 54 and still thrilled every time I get to play drums and make a buck. I'm not really sure why anyone complains about success, although I understand why people complain about the lack of!

Anyways, what about being a semi-pro
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That's possible too. You're no less of a musician if you play part time.

The main thing is, play because you like it. If you can make a few bucks, fine. If you make a million bucks, fine. If you just jam with friends and have fun, that should be fine too.

Bermuda
 
skreg said:
Honestly, I'm shocked that nobody has even mentioned the idea that this is a systemic problem. Obviously, it's not our lack of skill, or lack of motivation, or lack of intelligence keeping us from playing music. Literally, we're being denied the lifestyles we deserve - one of the deepest, most meaningful parts of ourselves (music) - because it doesn't play a good enough role in some kind of profit-creating economic drive. Really, that's the bottom of the whole discussion: We've been thrown out of the global economy because we literally can't play under its terms. And, until we come to fully accept that the current mechanisms of resource management necessarily alienate us from our art, we will continue to lose work, continue to "struggle to pay the bills," continue to play bad gigs, and continue to deny ourselves the time we owe to our instruments, to ourselves, and to our audiences.

With all this in mind, my role as a musician has become exceedingly clear: Find a way to play as much as I like, and enable others to do the same.
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Hmm. This statement seems to point out that something here is just downright unfair. Musicians thrown out of the global economy? Musicians denied the lifestyle they deserve? People being alienated from their art?

I think if you look back on the history of entertainment and art, it's been this way since the dawn of time. Life isn't fair. No one guarantees you anything. No one is taking anything from, or denying it from, you. No one twisted your arm to go to music school, no one threatened your life if you didn't play drums - you made that choice. Now you're discovering there may be something wrong with the entire system? The system is not going to change. Isn't it cool that when you become an adult all of a sudden you're responsible for making your life happen?

I get your frustrations, but your statement just sounds like our current political ranting - somebody has to take care of us! We can't do it ourselves! OMG what are we going to do?

All you can do, as toddbishop suggests, is suck it up and get through it, or get out and stop complaining.
 
Wow there's a lot of fruitful discussions here, love being even just a fly on the wall.

Smart young musicians these days (and I know a bunch being in Boston and around Berklee kids) have a back-up plan/job, be it in music (such as sound engineer or producer) or not. I have a back-up career as well being in grad school for physics. In this day and age, I'm completely content a few years down the road having a 9-5 professional career and jamming/playing weekend gigs locally. As long as I can give 110% each and every gig, I'll keep drumming.

I can't settle on being a starving artist. For me to give up on my professional career, I'd need to be drumming for a band like radiohead or coldplay. So, I'm not counting on those stars given how rare those types of bands come around.

To be honest, I get chills and thrills when I think there are people out there right now listening to my band's tracks and my drumming. Even if it's only a handful, I'm very happy.
 
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