Brands of whatever

Larry

"Uncle Larry"
I have to say, it's very curious to me how non endorsed musicians tend to align themselves with a certain brand of drums, cymbals, heads, sticks...I do it to, I'm not immune, but just today I imagined a scenario....forget the logistics, just debating the principle...what if there were no such things as individual brands. No badges. No company name to root our drums in. You go to a music store and there are NO BRANDS, just the gear. No brands. Hard to imagine. How would people act??

We would have to buy with our ears and eyes only, not our preconcepted mind.

It's a very freeing thought. So many people spend so much energy aligning themselves with a certain company. If there were no companies or brand names...how would that affect the people who are buying this stuff?

To me it's like Lennon trying to expound the thought of no possession. I have a hard time imagining it. I'm just trying to tease out a certain ingrained behavior pattern that is the basis for all of our drum gear opinions. I have to wonder how that would affect the conversations we have here if there were zero drum brands. We wouldn't know where they were manufactured, there would be no advertisements, just a store where you go and buy brandless stuff.

I don't think it would succeed, because we are so conditioned into feeling all protective over a company that makes stuff we need and use. I don't know that people would be ready to let all that go. Sadly...in a certain sense...we are brainwashed into debating with one another over a certain companies attributes as it compares to another company. It's really all wrong. It's not about the companies, it's about drumming, music, life.

So this would be a pretty open ended discussion that I would really like to hear some opinions about.

Thanks.

202020202020202020 (First known use of 2020 with a post that is way over 20 characters)

:)
 
Intriguing concept Larry. I actually lost a gig back in my twenties because of my bias towards a particular pedigree and model snare drum that I insisted on using at a gig. It's one of the best snares I own, but it wasn't right for the job. It didn't cut through the band and since it was an acoustic gig-with a large group on a big theater stage, it all went to hell that night, the horns couldn't hear 2&4. But for some reason (musical immaturity) the brand was what I thought I should have been guided by.
I think about the classical percussion guys of the 20th century (before wide scale endorsements) and how they picked the right timbre of the snare, cymbal etc... to guide what they chose for the music.

On a side note: Cymbals I think are really where the blindfold test could have the most impact on a preconceived bias towards a particular brand.
 
Sadly...in a certain sense...we are brainwashed into debating with one another over a certain companies attributes as it compares to another company. It's really all wrong. It's not about the companies, it's about drumming, music, life.

Drums - popular brands, niche brands, or no brand at all - are about sound. In that regard, certain brands or series possess certain sounds, while many brands sound suitably similar to each other. Choices should be about how the drums sound, and brainwashed or not, I would hope that drummers who are truly passionate about what they do, will choose the drums they like.

Then again, nobody should have to apologize or feel they've been manipulated, because the drums they truly like are branded DW, or Ludwig, or Dixon, or SJC.

I always liked Ludwig, not because Ringo played them, but because there was already a Ludwig kit in the house. Once I began to acquire multiple kits, I had several brands in my arsenal. Later, for almost 22 years, I endorsed a very niche brand, Impact, because I loved the sound. It was a completely unique shell not available anywhere else. What I'm saying is, even though I could have landed with a 'name' company, I chose the drums I really wanted to play.

After Impact stopped making drums (c2005) I took that opportunity to return to another sound I had loved as kid: Ludwig. I could have chosen pretty much any company to endorse, but I made my choice based on the sound, and 40 years after my initial Ludwig experiences, they did not disappoint. In fact, Ludwig hadn't really bounced back yet, my choice had little to do with the prestige or popularity of the brand. It was all about the sound. Even the Classic Maple shells that look like so many other companies' shells, are different.

It's got to be about the sound.

Bermuda
 
Choices should be about how the drums sound
That's only a part of it. The drums have to be built well, with good quality parts, and the hardware has to be both functional and able to withstand repeated adjustments. There are many drums that sound great, but I have no interest in them due to their particular tom mounting system or lug design.
 
I feel like you start to associate a certain type of sound with a certain brand.

I wouldn't know too much about drums since I invest way more into my cymbals, but in crashes, hats, and rides, I feel like in a blindfold test I could tell the difference between Sabian, Paiste, and Zildjian pretty easily with similar lines and Zildjian has the sound I'm looking for (Meinl also makes some great stuff IMO but I just lean towards zildjian - that might be because of brand bias. Between those two I'm not sure I could tell them apart with similar lines on a blindfold test).

It's an interesting scenario to imagine but I don't think I can imagine it given how much I've already shopped with a bit of brand bias towards zildjian.

I also wonder how gear in stores would be sorted if there was no brand. Would that also mean no names for certain gear lines? Like, every cymbal would just be marked with a size and you would just have to hit each one in the store?
 
We would have to buy with our ears and eyes only
That's pretty much impossible to do. You would have to be able to put the heads you play on the drums, and tune them the way you prefer. Not many stores will let you do that. Also, the acoustics of the particular room you try the drums out in will have a large effect on how the sound, not to mention the other drums in the room which would also be enhancing the sound.

If you could take them home for a week to try out, that would be ideal.
 
I feel like you start to associate a certain type of sound with a certain brand.

In some cases, it's true. The flagship DW drums have a unique and identifiable sound and feel. Ludwigs Classic Maple shells have a design difference that makes them warmer than other shells, despite looking exactly the same. There are a few other brands, but I'd agree in general that too many brands sound essentially the same. Actually, that's the reason I chose to endorse Ludwig, they have a different sound, and I like it.

I also wonder how gear in stores would be sorted if there was no brand. Would that also mean no names for certain gear lines? Like, every cymbal would just be marked with a size and you would just have to hit each one in the store?
It wasn't very long ago that the brands offered just one line of shell and hardware. I don't think they even called their line anything... it was just [brand] drums. Even when Ludwig introduced the 'budget' Standard series in 1968, they were still the same Ludwig shells, with different lugs, stands and pedals.

Zildjians in particular were just cymbals prior to the early '70s or so, there were never As or anything like that. They were made by size and profile and somewhat by weight, and rubber-stamped afterward. If a 20" turned out thin, it was a crash. If it was thicker, it became a ride. In between, it was a medium crash.

And yes, that's how cymbals were chosen - you went into a store and hit every cymbal they had.

But viva le difference when a company offers truly different or unique lines!

Bermuda
 
But for some reason (musical immaturity) the brand was what I thought I should have been guided by.

I like how you can turn your critical mind back onto yourself easily. High skill.

In that regard, certain brands or series possess certain sounds, while many brands sound suitably similar to each other.

Respectfully...I wonder how many people could tell the difference blindfolded, if you took 20 different brands of drum, headed and tuned them the exact same, played by the same player...how many people could pick brands blindfolded? That I would love to see. In my mind,
people make associations between brands and certain sounds in their minds. If I tuned up 2 identical TOTL Ludwig kits and blindfolded someone and told them it was a round badge Gretsch from the 60's and a modern Ludwig kit of the same sizes, how many would tell you it's 2 Ludwig kits?


Bermuda

I feel like you start to associate a certain type of sound with a certain brand.

And this is the crux right here. We are giving the drums a certain, agreed upon identity. It's not actually like that, it is what we are assigning to it. So if that is true, we should be able to use Ddrums on heavy jazz gigs...if we all agreed upon it. See what I'm saying? How imagined this stuff all is?

If you could take them home for a week to try out, that would be ideal.

It's already here in the form of the 30 day return policy. I never feel bad about using it. I don't abuse it though.

In some cases, it's true. The flagship DW drums have a unique and identifiable sound and feel. Ludwigs Classic Maple shells have a design difference that makes them warmer than other shells, despite looking exactly the same. There are a few other brands, but I'd agree in general that too many brands sound essentially the same. Actually, that's the reason I chose to endorse Ludwig, they have a different sound, and I like it.

But viva le difference when a company offers truly different or unique lines!

Bermuda

Respectfully, I just can't get on board with this. JMO but I really think these are romantic notions assigned to the drums, attributable to many factors including the incredibly strong imprinting factor. A truly unique drum would share no real properties of any other drum. As far as a unique sound...well in that sense, everything is unique. But as far as drums go, they all fall within the same general range. A cymbal is pretty static, soundwise. It is what it is. Drums are a lump of clay, many different sounds can be had from them. Are all those sounds unique to that brand? I would have to answer no, there is significant overlap, an example would be the dead splat tone.

I apologize if I sound combative. I do want to debate this though in a respectful Drummerworld fashion.
 
I don't have as much of a problem with people aligning themselves with brands of gear as much as I do with people aligning themselves with the gear that their favorite drummer uses. Because Joe XXX uses Ludwig, and I like his music or his style or his look then the drums must be the best. That to me makes no sense at all.
 
Zildjians in particular were just cymbals prior to the early '70s or so, there were never As or anything like that. They were made by size and profile and somewhat by weight, and rubber-stamped afterward. If a 20" turned out thin, it was a crash. If it was thicker, it became a ride. In between, it was a medium crash.

And yes, that's how cymbals were chosen - you went into a store and hit every cymbal they had.

ok, sure, I wasn't thinking about this. But at least then cymbals were sorted by brand. While OP is making the argument that there isn't as big of a difference than we all believe, I'm sure there was at least a difference between the cymbals made by Paiste, and say, Zildjian. If there's no brand names on anything, it's the ultimate clutter.
 
ok, sure, I wasn't thinking about this. But at least then cymbals were sorted by brand. While OP is making the argument that there isn't as big of a difference than we all believe, I'm sure there was at least a difference between the cymbals made by Paiste, and say, Zildjian. If there's no brand names on anything, it's the ultimate clutter.

To put a finer point on it, I am mainly talking drums here. Cymbals are relatively unchangeable, and yes there are noticeable differences in Paiste and Zildjian that I believe even I could tell the difference blindfolded. Drums I can't say that about. What I hoped to talk about is more about how a good amount of us kind of broadly categorize drums. For example Gretsch for jazz and so forth. We make it all up. Any brand could work for jazz. That's what I want to talk about, our preconceived notions about what drums are good for what and which aren't. I contend that they basically sound mostly alike. Like there are no rock trumpets and jazz trumpets, why are there rock drums and jazz drums?

I find it curious. It seems like there is way more important stuff to discuss than the drums themselves. But if you look at the numbers, the gear threads clearly dominate the numbers and the interest here. Not judging anything, I'm just observing and asking why and listening to other POV's.
 
To put a finer point on it, I am mainly talking drums here. Cymbals are relatively unchangeable, and yes there are noticeable differences in Paiste and Zildjian that I believe even I could tell the difference blindfolded. Drums I can't say that about. What I hoped to talk about is more about how a good amount of us kind of broadly categorize drums. For example Gretsch for jazz and so forth. We make it all up. Any brand could work for jazz. That's what I want to talk about, our preconceived notions about what drums are good for what and which aren't. I contend that they basically sound mostly alike. Like there are no rock trumpets and jazz trumpets, why are there rock drums and jazz drums?

I find it curious. It seems like there is way more important stuff to discuss than the drums themselves. But if you look at the numbers, the gear threads clearly dominate the numbers and the interest here. Not judging anything, I'm just observing and asking why and listening to other POV's.

Oh

well I don't pay enough attention to different brands of drums to really know the difference :p I just use my ears on different kits I've played to know which ones I like
 
Good concept!

While talking with a guitarist in our band, he mentioned that my Sonorlites were rock drums and his drummer in his other band played old Ludwigs and those drums were jazz drums.
after rattling off a few jazz drummers who used my drums and a few rock drummers who played old Ludwigs, he seemed to understand that drums aren't cars.



Afew moths ago I went up to Dumcenter in Portsmouth New Hampshire with $2500 US in my pocket to buy a new set at their big birthday bash. This was a big deal for me.

I was convinced I would get another set of Sonors, like maybe the new SQ1 or Prolites.
When I got there, I listened to all the nice drums and had a few people hit them while I stood back to listen.

I didn't care for any of the Sonors.
What I really liked were the Pearl Masterworks. They sounded very nice, but I didn't bother to see what kind of drums they were because I didn't initially consider them. Masterworks can be anything. It's impossible to know what I heard unless I looked closer at them, but I didn't.

I left the store without buying a set because I had an idea in my head that didn't work out with my preconceived notions.

A few months later I found a nice set of Pearl Reference Pures for a good price used. They're very nice, but I wouldn't have considered them at the time until the newer Sonors got knocked out of contention. I don't know if the Masterworks I heard were made to the same specs as the Pures, but it got me to pay a little more attention to the sound of the other Pearl sets online.

A few years earlier, I was up at the same store buying a set of Meinls. I was spending time talking with the rep from UFIP. He could have easily convinced me to buy a set of UFIPs, the way he was explaining them to me and having me listen to them from across the room. I would have bought them, but I went up there to buy a set of Meinls and I had a good idea of what I wanted.
If I bought a set of UFIPs that day, I probably would have experienced a major sense of buyers remorse.

It's very difficult to remove yourself from what you think you already know, especially if you think you know something about what you really enjoy.
 
It's very difficult to remove yourself from what you think you already know, especially if you think you know something about what you really enjoy.

Bam! Thanks Wally. This is more in line with where I'm going. Imagine no preconceptions. That might take some doing.

Is that a recipe for disaster or the way to go?
 
No preconceptions? Wonderful, but impossible for anybody who has read anything on this site about 'gear' for more than a few months. You just cannot lose that knowledge, or those preconceived notions on 'brands' too easily. I wish I had read some pre-conceived notions before buying my first drum kit (a CB) for about $400, when there was a Camco (a brand I had never heard of then) in the corner for $1000! Mind you I never played either kit before buying. Dumb, naive.

But one can pass through the veil …the cloud of hype and brands. If you read enough and try enough drums long enough, I think one could reach a point where the brands do no longer matter once you get the sound in your head you seek from drums. One has all they need ...perhaps…. a Nirvana of sorts. You may be there Larry?
 
But one can pass through the veil …the cloud of hype and brands. If you read enough and try enough drums long enough, I think one could reach a point where the brands do no longer matter once you get the sound in your head you seek from drums. One has all they need ...perhaps…. a Nirvana of sorts. You may be there Larry?

I think I am there Louis and IMO, the best drums on the planet are not worlds apart from the "next best" drums on the planet. In fact, in stark reality, IMO, they are like the nicest house on the same block as all the other really great houses. I played a backline Frankenkit with Yamaha toms recently...wow, great tone, and I didn't even have to tune them. Ply shell.
 
"Whatever" is a great brand name.. I think the feel drums give you is just as important as tone. Some like loose fitting shoes , some like sneakers. Of course a one night stand on a random kit might feel and sound cool but you will eventually gravitate back to where you feel comfortable. the sounds you like may not suit all songs.
 
Way back when I worked for GC, GC had a deal with UFIP Cymbals.

For whatever reason, GC was pushing them hard. When sales didn't take off, I got orders to move the UFIP Cymbal tree out of the cymbal room to the front of drum department so you couldn't walk in without seeing them.

At the time, UFIP didn't mark their cymbals with names. No "medium" no "heavy" or "rock" or "thin" or whatever.

People who walked in were baffled by them. They'd ask where are the labels? "what-da-ya-mean I have to listen to ALL of them to find the one I like?"

And it was tough to sell. I got good at if someone like a certain cymbal, but wanted something a little more (description) I knew what model to pull out. It was impossible to do that with UFIP, because if someone said "I sort of like this one, but I prefer..." I couldn't just direct them to the right one, because they all looked the same.
 
As far as drums go, I just go with what I know and hardware is a big concern for me. Tama, Ludwig, Slingerland, Yamaha all have great hardware. Slingerland maybe not as much. Pearl hardware leaves me flat. But I'm also intrigued by some lesser known brands, like INDe for example

With snare drums I like to be open-minded towards brands. Same with cymbals too.
 
I think a decent part of the reason I would look at a specific brand over another is the trust that it's going to be a quality product that lasts, that is going to be well supported by the manufacturer, etc.

I take opinions of others into account when I don't have previous personal experience with a particular brand, but still pick what I think fits my own need.

E.g. the main reason I picked Sonor for my main drum set was that they had the shell thickness and sizes I wanted in my price range, and that everything looked pretty well built. Then I factored in that they seem to have a reputation for quality. Would I pick Sonor again for the next kit? I'd definitely give them a good look given my good experience so far, but I'd still look around the others in a fair bit of detail too.
 
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