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Old 08-23-2017, 04:16 PM
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Default Elvis - Suspicious Minds

I always wondered what the tempo relationship is, if any, between the main groove and the slower 6/8 section in the middle. It's not like the 1/4 note tempo of the faster groove becomes the 1/8 note tempo of the 6/8 groove. The 6/8 tempo is faster than 1/4 = 1/8. So for anyone here who plays that song on a gig, how do you get into that slower section, what determines the correct tempo? I play this in my band and I get into the slower section fine, but I think I'm probably feeling it slower than the record, more like 1/4 = 1/8.

It goes into it at 1:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxOBOhRECoo

While I'm talking about Elvis, let me also mention Hound Dog. I might be over complicating this, lol, but is it completely swung or is it somewhere between swung and even straight 1/8ths? When I listen to it, it sounds like it's somewhere in the middle of those, a bit swung and a bit straight. Maybe it's just me, but it almost sounds like 1+2+3+4+. Of course, the 1 bar solo snare roll at the end of each section is clearly triplets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eHJ12Vhpyc

And in this video, the original drummer plays a bit of it. It looks like he's swinging it or is he giving it a slightly straight feel as well?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT2dZg2KKFs
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

There's probably a modulation in mind, but it's pretty loose. It's just "play a slow 6/8, everybody".

Sounds like that the half note of the 4/4 section becomes equal to the dotted quarter of the 6/8 section. They're pretty close, but the band slows down a bit more than this. However, going back into the 4/4 section from the 6/8 section, this relationship is more solid.

Tap your left hand at 114, and tap your right twice as fast (8th notes). Now on your right, switch to quarter note triplets, while maintaining quarters at 114 with your left hand. This is the modulation that the band has in mind.

Hound Dog is a weird attempt at swinging. The drummer is playing a swing rhythm, the same one as in the last video. The rhythm guitarist is somewhere in between straight 8ths and swung 8ths, but is kind of all over the place. Much of early rock and roll has swinging hi-hats or rides, mixed with straight 8th rhythms on the piano or guitar. Little Richard and Jerry Lewis come to mind. Drummers played swing because they were taught from a big band perspective, but the piano or guitar often played straight, because that's what was cool and different at the time. Mixing two rhythms like that was a new, different thing, but it doesn't really happen in pop music today.
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Old 08-23-2017, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
There's probably a modulation in mind, but it's pretty loose. It's just "play a slow 6/8, everybody".
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Old 08-23-2017, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
There's probably a modulation in mind, but it's pretty loose. It's just "play a slow 6/8, everybody".

Sounds like that the half note of the 4/4 section becomes equal to the dotted quarter of the 6/8 section. They're pretty close, but the band slows down a bit more than this. However, going back into the 4/4 section from the 6/8 section, this relationship is more solid.

Tap your left hand at 114, and tap your right twice as fast (8th notes). Now on your right, switch to quarter note triplets, while maintaining quarters at 114 with your left hand. This is the modulation that the band has in mind.

Hound Dog is a weird attempt at swinging. The drummer is playing a swing rhythm, the same one as in the last video. The rhythm guitarist is somewhere in between straight 8ths and swung 8ths, but is kind of all over the place. Much of early rock and roll has swinging hi-hats or rides, mixed with straight 8th rhythms on the piano or guitar. Little Richard and Jerry Lewis come to mind. Drummers played swing because they were taught from a big band perspective, but the piano or guitar often played straight, because that's what was cool and different at the time. Mixing two rhythms like that was a new, different thing, but it doesn't really happen in pop music today.
I agree, brent. 1/2 = dotted 1/4 is exactly what I tried before I posted but it didn't match up. I tried the quarter triplets at 114, yeah, that would be the half note = dotted quarter. Indeed, they're definitely playing it slower. Actually, if they did play the 6/8 at exactly half = dotted quarter, I think it would sound too fast now that I'm used to hearing it slower, lol. So I guess since they're playing it slower, the band picks up the new tempo from the first 3 hi-hat strokes at whatever tempo the drummer sets.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts about Hound Dog. Right, so it's the guitarist that's making me hear a mixed feel of swing and straight 1/8ths.
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Old 08-28-2017, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

Just hold on and hope that the snare and guitar match up on 4.
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Old 11-01-2018, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

We've recently added Elvis 'Treat Me Nice' to our set. This seems to be another one in between swing and straight. Seems a bit opposite to hound dog as in this one I'm hearing the drummer playing slightly straight and the piano playing it swung. Is that how anyone else here hears it?


https://youtube.com/watch?v=4LE2jmW9XdY
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Last edited by Merlin5; 11-01-2018 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

I'm hearing a shuffle pattern on the drums, flattened out at times. I hear regular paced shuffle on the piano.

If you don't agree, treat me nice OK?
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Old 11-01-2018, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

If you think the studio version of "Minds" has some tempo things going on, watch it live. By the end of the song, Elvis has got the train just about going off the tracks. And I can't imagine any of his band trying to tell him to keep on tempo...

My guess is they punched in the bridge in the studio rather than landing it from the original tempo in a live take, but I could be wrong.
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Old 11-01-2018, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

Lol, you're not kidding al, for the most part it's around 130 to 133bpm but gets close to 150 bpm by the latter parts.

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I'm hearing a shuffle pattern on the drums, flattened out at times. I hear regular paced shuffle on the piano.

If you don't agree, treat me nice OK?
I agree with you larry. Don't worry I won't be cold as ice, I'll treat you nice.
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Old 11-01-2018, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

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Lol, you're not kidding al, for the most part it's around 130 to 133bpm but gets close to 150 bpm by the latter parts..
This is the way my band plays it. Build the tempo, and the excitement, after the bridge.
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Old 11-02-2018, 06:31 AM
brentcn brentcn is offline
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I'm hearing a shuffle pattern on the drums, flattened out at times. I hear regular paced shuffle on the piano.

If you don't agree, treat me nice OK?
Just gave Hound Dog another listen, and I'm still disagreeing with you (nicely, but firmly, haha!).

There's no piano -- no piano at all. I'm thinking that you meant to write guitar? If so, it's so poorly represented in the mix that it's anyone's guess what the rhythm is. But there's a charm to it, as well.

I don't hear the hi-hat or ride cymbal "flattening"; it plays the same (somewhat wonky) swing throughout. The skip notes sometimes get accented so much that the down beats are inaudible. And that snare drum fill is rushed every time. Again, it's not incredibly well-executed, but that's a charm to it.

It's a rhythmic mess, by today's standards. But the vocals are still killer -- wonderful pitch, ornamentation, and rhythm -- even by today's standards.
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Old 11-02-2018, 06:52 AM
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ineedaclutch ineedaclutch is offline
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

He was talking about "Treat Me Nice" I believe.
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Old 11-02-2018, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

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Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
Just gave Hound Dog another listen, and I'm still disagreeing with you (nicely, but firmly, haha!).

There's no piano -- no piano at all. I'm thinking that you meant to write guitar? If so, it's so poorly represented in the mix that it's anyone's guess what the rhythm is. But there's a charm to it, as well.

I don't hear the hi-hat or ride cymbal "flattening"; it plays the same (somewhat wonky) swing throughout. The skip notes sometimes get accented so much that the down beats are inaudible. And that snare drum fill is rushed every time. Again, it's not incredibly well-executed, but that's a charm to it.

It's a rhythmic mess, by today's standards. But the vocals are still killer -- wonderful pitch, ornamentation, and rhythm -- even by today's standards.
Sorry Brent it was "Treat Me Nice".

It's a rhythmic mess, ha ha. Controlled chaos. It works though, that mess.

On 'Hound Dog" I always thought Scotty Moore's rhythmic figure behind the vocals...was very white sounding. Not grooving. Like he is playing straight 16ths instead of the triplet feel.
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Old 11-03-2018, 03:34 AM
eddypierce eddypierce is offline
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

Quote:
Originally Posted by brentcn View Post
Just gave Hound Dog another listen, and I'm still disagreeing with you (nicely, but firmly, haha!).

There's no piano -- no piano at all. I'm thinking that you meant to write guitar? If so, it's so poorly represented in the mix that it's anyone's guess what the rhythm is. But there's a charm to it, as well.

I don't hear the hi-hat or ride cymbal "flattening"; it plays the same (somewhat wonky) swing throughout. The skip notes sometimes get accented so much that the down beats are inaudible. And that snare drum fill is rushed every time. Again, it's not incredibly well-executed, but that's a charm to it.

It's a rhythmic mess, by today's standards. But the vocals are still killer -- wonderful pitch, ornamentation, and rhythm -- even by today's standards.
In case anyone hasn't mentioned it yet, that's DJ Fontana on both of those tracks. I've often thought his triplet fills on "Hound Dog" were some of the worst examples of rushing on any major pop hit.
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Old 11-03-2018, 07:10 AM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

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..I've often thought his triplet fills on "Hound Dog" were some of the worst examples of rushing on any major pop hit..

That, or a little 'rythmic chaos', is in my opinion actually the strenght of a lot of those old recordings in a lot of cases..
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: Elvis - Suspicious Minds

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That, or a little 'rythmic chaos', is in my opinion actually the strenght of a lot of those old recordings in a lot of cases..
For sure. There are lots of "poorly played" songs that are iconic. Perfection sucks. Imperfection is where the real deal is.

"Louie Louie" is an iconic song that comes to mind which IMO, let's say it's not the most professionally played song out there. JMO. Doesn't matter. They captured something that perfection can never achieve, imperfection. Imperfection sticks with you. Perfection is so homogeneous, it misses the hugan element.

I misspelled human on purpose to prove a point. You may remember that more than if I spelled it right. Didn't it stick out? That's what I'm talking about.
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