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  #41  
Old 10-11-2018, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by GretschedHive View Post
Today I Learned that quite a bit of the stuff Miles Davis played in the 1960s with the Second Great Quartet (Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter and some guy named Tony Williams) was not actually jazz, despite the mind-blowing levels of improvisation.

I understand that's not what you're saying. And I would not be at all surprised to learn you are entirely correct, and that there was no jazz being played at that jazz band concert. But I think it's important to note that not all jazz is swung, and not everything that's swung is jazz. (And, of course, not everything that's improvised is jazz and not all jazz has improvisation—tricky stuff, these definitions.)
what part of what they played wasn't jazz?

I'm curious

Seven Steps, ESP, Miles Smiles, Sorcerer, Nefertiti, Miles In The Sky, Filles de Kilimanjaro ?.... which one ...

every one of those is 100% a jazz record
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  #42  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:02 PM
J-Boogie J-Boogie is offline
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Maybe he is referring to the different classifications/periods of jazz? Out of curiosity, were these albums considered post bop jazz?
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  #43  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by J-Boogie View Post
Maybe he is referring to the different classifications/periods of jazz? Out of curiosity, were these albums considered post bop jazz?

be bop was gone pretty much in the mid 50s ... pieces of it lingered on and it's vocabulary stayed a common thread through the 60s

but all the nomenclature ... post bop... hard bop ... I'm not much for all of that

these records were just Miles ... many of them changed everything

and a ton of that had to do with Tony Williams

listen to Miles In The Sky ... listen to Sorcerer ... Tony had flipped the script and was absolutely changing the game

none of these records have anything to do with be bop ... be it post or any other

Miles got as far from bebop as he could after leaving Birds quintet
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  #44  
Old 10-11-2018, 10:28 PM
J-Boogie J-Boogie is offline
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Thanks for the info YouIs...

Not just to mindlessly quote everything Ive read and everyones comments, but from my listening experience, it seems Tony did in fact come in and flip the script as you say. To me this is only possible on a truly meaningful level if youve spent the time learning, perhaps verbatim, what the guys before you have done. Once that is fully understood and digested, then from that you can build....and build Tony did!! Its lame of me to say, but it makes listening to other guys a lil boring at times. Tony has done for me with jazz what Vinnie did to me with rock/jazz/whatever. But I find the other guys can be amazing in other ways that Ill mature to enjoy more. Like with my early rock thing I needed fireworks then learned to love the beauty in a Jim Gordon track. Now Im digging the freakishness of Tony, but I can already see how Ill get into the groove of Art, and the layered deep playing, with to me one of the prettiest rides Elvin, etc. At 44 I feel Ive only scratched the surface with this stuff and its so exhilarating...and turns me a huge dork. It all started when I was a very young child being taken to see The Pink Panther and that music got in my soul. Love this stuff....sorry for the rant
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  #45  
Old 10-11-2018, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by J-Boogie View Post
Thanks for the info YouIs...

Not just to mindlessly quote everything Ive read and everyones comments, but from my listening experience, it seems Tony did in fact come in and flip the script as you say. To me this is only possible on a truly meaningful level if youve spent the time learning, perhaps verbatim, what the guys before you have done. Once that is fully understood and digested, then from that you can build....and build Tony did!! Its lame of me to say, but it makes listening to other guys a lil boring at times. Tony has done for me with jazz what Vinnie did to me with rock/jazz/whatever. But I find the other guys can be amazing in other ways that Ill mature to enjoy more. Like with my early rock thing I needed fireworks then learned to love the beauty in a Jim Gordon track. Now Im digging the freakishness of Tony, but I can already see how Ill get into the groove of Art, and the layered deep playing, with to me one of the prettiest rides Elvin, etc. At 44 I feel Ive only scratched the surface with this stuff and its so exhilarating...and turns me a huge dork. It all started when I was a very young child being taken to see The Pink Panther and that music got in my soul. Love this stuff....sorry for the rant
you are correct ...

for example ... Tony just absolutely loved and adored Max ...

he spent years of his life learning every note Max played ...

he then decided that he would never play something in his own expressions that Max would have played ...

that is how Tony became Tony

emulate... assimilate ... innovate
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  #46  
Old 10-11-2018, 11:41 PM
GretschedHive GretschedHive is offline
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
what part of what they played wasn't jazz?

I'm curious

Seven Steps, ESP, Miles Smiles, Sorcerer, Nefertiti, Miles In The Sky, Filles de Kilimanjaro ?.... which one ...

every one of those is 100% a jazz record
I was being facetious.

I was responding to the earlier assertion that what was played in the high school jazz band could not possibly be jazz because it was straight and not swung. Of course, the Second Great Quartet played many songs that were straight and not swung. Therefore, going by the original posters previous assertion, it was not jazz. Which, obviously, is simply not true.
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  #47  
Old 10-12-2018, 12:09 AM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by GretschedHive View Post
I was being facetious.

I was responding to the earlier assertion that what was played in the high school jazz band could not possibly be jazz because it was straight and not swung. Of course, the Second Great Quartet played many songs that were straight and not swung. Therefore, going by the original posters previous assertion, it was not jazz. Which, obviously, is simply not true.
went over my head

apologies
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  #48  
Old 10-12-2018, 02:49 AM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

In the examples shown above, what a difference in style between Tommy Igoe, fingers, and will Kennedy, no fingers at all. Fingers and controlling the bounce is fantastic.
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  #49  
Old 10-12-2018, 03:01 AM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

I liked how Elvin Jones would propel the swing feel with an emphasis on the "a"' of 2&4.
Jeff Hamilton's approach here is really nice... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hxCJ5O_tdo
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  #50  
Old 10-12-2018, 03:34 AM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by Jeremy Bender View Post
I liked how Elvin Jones would propel the swing feel with an emphasis on the "a"' of 2&4.
Jeff Hamilton's approach here is really nice... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hxCJ5O_tdo
I like that video too. Watched it a bunch. I like John Riley's where he "sort of" throws and catches (with fingers) nice too. Watching Art Blakey on Moanin' looks like does that sort of thing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKOoxgI_xfQ

The way he holds his snare hand I don't see how he gets such power and good licks??? I've watched this a million times in my Moanin' journey-mainly watching his ride hand. The first week I though this is easy I got it. The more I studied and worked on it seems like I was going backwards and now progressing again. Watching him really helps me (trying to pick it out at first just listening was giving me a fit)-I love watching him drum. He loves it!! Papa Jones the same. I guess if I was that good I'd be smiling too ;)
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  #51  
Old 10-12-2018, 09:19 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Here you go Larry a cautionary tale with Moanin'. This is a great exercise-thanks Who'sTony. This was one at the beginning so it looks easy at first and I'm "Ok", but keeping that steady spangalang is hard-you see I get off quite bit and get lost in less than two minutes, then my time waivers in this too. It's deceptively difficult at first-I probably still suck at it. I've adding hi hats to it already (that helps with time), and trying the little kick (which is really difficult for me), but the snare part will take me a bit-hell a long time. I think I've picked this to death myself but if you notice anything else to help I'd appreciate it. Besides it's painful-moaning. Yeah I know my grip need a lot of work and actively seeking to fix that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4tX...ature=youtu.be
On a personal note. Gosh I've a gut now-that lack of exercise the last few months shows.
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  #52  
Old 10-12-2018, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by GetAgrippa View Post
Here you go Larry a cautionary tale with Moanin'. This is a great exercise-thanks Who'sTony. This was one at the beginning so it looks easy at first and I'm "Ok", but keeping that steady spangalang is hard-you see I get off quite bit and get lost in less than two minutes, then my time waivers in this too. It's deceptively difficult at first-I probably still suck at it. I've adding hi hats to it already (that helps with time), and trying the little kick (which is really difficult for me), but the snare part will take me a bit-hell a long time. I think I've picked this to death myself but if you notice anything else to help I'd appreciate it. Besides it's painful-moaning. Yeah I know my grip need a lot of work and actively seeking to fix that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4tX...ature=youtu.be
On a personal note. Gosh I've a gut now-that lack of exercise the last few months shows.
hey Art

nice work my friend

I noticed your skip beat was quite "crushed" for a good portion of the video ... but right about 1:21 it opened up nicely

take a listen to what happens around 1:21 ... try to capture the feel that you eventually execute right around that time

also don't be afraid to get a little more rebound off the cymbal on beats 2 and 4 ... it will open it up further and give you more control and allow you to stay consistent

think ... throw, bounce, catch. throw, bounce, catch ... so that it is not all wrist work

I could make you a quick vid if you are not clear on what I mean by that if you wish ... let me know

progress is wonderful
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  #53  
Old 10-12-2018, 10:17 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

There is more than one way to play the ride. Static spang-a-lang isn't really one of them. Hasn't been for a long while and emphasis should be on driving quarter notes.

The need for extreme independence is also not really that important. Unisons with the ride and being comfortable with all the three other voices, snare, bass and hats is the deal. Listen to songs, play musically and apart from the fact that jazz is improvisational in nature, the fundamental stuff and good feel is the main thing.
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  #54  
Old 10-12-2018, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by Odd-Arne Oseberg View Post
There is more than one way to play the ride. Static spang-a-lang isn't really one of them. Hasn't been for a long while and emphasis should be on driving quarter notes.

The need for extreme independence is also not really that important. Unisons with the ride and being comfortable with all the three other voices, snare, bass and hats is the deal. Listen to songs, play musically and apart from the fact that jazz is improvisational in nature, the fundamental stuff and good feel is the main thing.

it is extremely important to be able to play the traditional ride beat comfortably before exploring creative expression

this thread is clearly about the beginning stages ... and that is 100% the beginning stage once the quarter is swinging
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  #55  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Thanks Tony thanks for the encouragement-I've been watching the John Riley video of the catch and throw technique so been working on it (along with other videos though sometimes I think that just confuses me like with hi hats ). I notice I have a bad habit of often stifling the stick which really impacts the snare and cymbal sound (like I'm afraid to hit it). Ironically wanting to get control with a clean stroke or spangalang I lose it. Let the stick do the work. I've been tapping out stuff with my wrist so long it's a hard habit to break-but I'm seeking some help with my grip and stroke so Im going to finally fix that crap But thanks for this-really a blast-I thought it would be boring-I get bored easily LOL. I look forward to not hitting anything but the cymbal-calms my brain to listen. When I get this to a cover stage I'm going to post it-probably not all of it but something I'd feel good about. I will hit you up though, if you don't mind, when I stumble. Been working on other swinging songs too and that is just a blast. I call it joyous drumming. After a humiliating experience of someone letting me know just how much I suck at jazz I really do appreciate the encouragement.
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Last edited by GetAgrippa; 10-12-2018 at 11:50 PM.
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  #56  
Old 10-14-2018, 12:01 AM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Wow "just" realized I hijacked Larry's thread-what a dick-I apologize Larry. I can be "thoughtless" at times.
Tony I was thinking about your offer of a Video-do you think you could? I was thinking how much your last video with brushes really helped me-and others too. So I think one of your excellent videos would be great for Larry, myself, and others just getting into jazz.
Once again Larry I apologize for my poor etiquette but that's the reason I can never be on "your list" ;) Dammit I screw up everything. Well anyways you my bro-no better than my brother either of them would screw me over-I know you would never do that.
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  #57  
Old 10-14-2018, 12:27 AM
J-Boogie J-Boogie is offline
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Art....ur why we cant have nice things! Which is how I prefer it, ur awesome. Another Ant video would rock as always, I concur.
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  #58  
Old 10-14-2018, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
..I wish I could gather you guys in a room and share my feelings ... they just don't translate via text well

feel it being thrown from your body so as a result your ride cymbal dances

you guys are all on the right track..

Just wondering, but has such a thing ever happened in the history of this forum..?
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  #59  
Old 10-14-2018, 02:58 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

It could be tangential, but would you consider these swung or shuffled?

https://youtu.be/phT3Qc58_s4
https://youtu.be/wqBzdNpnyYY
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  #60  
Old 10-14-2018, 05:17 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Lots of great recommendations here.

Here’s Shirley Horn performing “Nice and Easy.” Listen to anything she ever did with Steve Williams on drums to here some of the most grooving music ever recorded. Their pocket and phrasing is incredible.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zC-fOh...bnWU6g&index=7
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  #61  
Old 10-19-2018, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Hey Guys,

Lots of great stuff on here already. Todd's article is unsurprisingly clear, thoughtful and useful, and Anthony's commentary and suggestions are also super helpful. Several years ago I made a kind of awful video discussing my approach to learning the ride cymbal beat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syAVfXzGfLc

There is way too much of me talking in this video, so let me boil down my suggestions:

1. Take your ride cymbal away from the set to help you focus.

2. Find a piece of music with really strong ride cymbal playing. My suggestion was "Remember" from the Hank Mobley album "Soul Station" featuring Art Blakey's drumming.

3. Play along with the song several times per session, focusing on trying emulate Blakey's beat as well as locking up with Paul Chamber's bass lines.

4. Respond to the music appropriately by marking the form and playing with dynamics, while also trying to internalize some of the vocabulary from the great soloists on the tune.

Great discussion, I hope this is useful.
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  #62  
Old 10-19-2018, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by haredrums View Post
Hey Guys,

Lots of great stuff on here already. Todd's article is unsurprisingly clear, thoughtful and useful, and Anthony's commentary and suggestions are also super helpful. Several years ago I made a kind of awful video discussing my approach to learning the ride cymbal beat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syAVfXzGfLc

There is way too much of me talking in this video, so let me boil down my suggestions:

1. Take your ride cymbal away from the set to help you focus.

2. Find a piece of music with really strong ride cymbal playing. My suggestion was "Remember" from the Hank Mobley album "Soul Station" featuring Art Blakey's drumming.

3. Play along with the song several times per session, focusing on trying emulate Blakey's beat as well as locking up with Paul Chamber's bass lines.

4. Respond to the music appropriately by marking the form and playing with dynamics, while also trying to internalize some of the vocabulary from the great soloists on the tune.

Great discussion, I hope this is useful.

nice to see you hear Andrew

hope you are well
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  #63  
Old 10-21-2018, 03:00 AM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Courtesy of Steve Maxwell...

Listening recommendations:

Swing at its finest "subtle yet swinging": Papa Jo Jones, Grady Tate, Mel Lewis

Hard bop "busier" style: Philly Joe, Elvin, Tony

Hard bop "straight ahead": Art Blakey, Max Roach

Big Band "hard driving": Buddy Rich, Sonny Payne with Basie

Big Band "smooth and swinging": Dave Tough, Big Sid Catlett, Don Lamond
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  #64  
Old 10-21-2018, 07:12 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Fabulous post Jeremy!!!!!
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  #65  
Old 10-24-2018, 02:48 AM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by SmoothOperator View Post
It could be tangential, but would you consider these swung or shuffled?

https://youtu.be/phT3Qc58_s4
https://youtu.be/wqBzdNpnyYY
It took me a while to figure it out, but it is exactly the swing pattern. My library checks out musical instruments, I recently had a chance to play a 14" frame drum, I started immitating the boy using his finger to mute the drum. Then I went back and listened to the CD of the Black Lodge Singers. They are playing/muting on two and four then playing a swing note on the y's of one and three. The two and four are there, but subtle.

For what its worth there is a corresponding dance that looks like a foxtrot/triple step out doors: https://youtu.be/tUOzPZSv5X0
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  #66  
Old 10-24-2018, 03:21 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

A good way to learn is using a grid to use over the jazz pattern (spang a lang, 2&4 on hh and feathering a 4 on the floor). This Art of bop approach worked for me, and I strongly recommend it. Remember, there is no fast tracking this process, no shortcuts, just long hours. Start working on it too early before you get that ride pattern down and reverse-engineering it will be a pain.

Once you get the "ostinato" going :

First quarter notes on snare, 4 bars on the ones, then on the e's, than the and's and then the a's.

Then doubles and triples in a same manner, displacing them to cover the quarter note spectrum.

Then triplets.

Then you start over with the bd. Then the hh. For me, that took more than a year, even more at a rate of an hour a day (50-hour job + 2 kids....)

That is the way I now work with other ostinatos : I get it down, constant and hopefully groovin' then take out my grid and work on independance.

We could discuss all day if going over the phrasing part of the book is a good exercice, but I did it and it helped me get phrasing ideas and got me on the way.

Happy practicing !

Last edited by Groov-E; 10-24-2018 at 04:47 PM.
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  #67  
Old 10-24-2018, 04:11 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

I have a question about accents. While playing around, I found out that it changes the feel depending on where the accent is. On 5, 55, 55, I accent either the "fif" or the "ty", or the "5". I default to accenting the "fif", but have been practicing accenting the other notes. I even tried accenting the space between the notes, but no, that didn't work :)

I was wondering if you guys default to an accent or you put the accent where you want and have no default. If there was no music playing and you were demonstrating the JRP, do you have a default?

Thanks.
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  #68  
Old 10-24-2018, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

I play them at a pretty even volume, or I will emphasize the quarter note pulse, or I may accent the & of 2/& of 4. I don't have a default, and I rarely play it without variations-- it all depends on the tune and the style, and what the rest of the band is doing, and what I want to play. When demonstrating I play it at an even volume, or with a slight emphasis on the quarter note pulse. At normal combo volume accents are pretty subtle, unless I'm accenting on purpose in support of my comping.

Again, I don't really believe in doing this in the abstract-- if you listen to Billy Higgins or Elvin Jones or Art Blakey they will tell you how to play it.
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  #69  
Old 10-24-2018, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I have a question about accents. While playing around, I found out that it changes the feel depending on where the accent is. On 5, 55, 55, I accent either the "fif" or the "ty", or the "5". I default to accenting the "fif", but have been practicing accenting the other notes. I even tried accenting the space between the notes, but no, that didn't work :)

I was wondering if you guys default to an accent or you put the accent where you want and have no default. If there was no music playing and you were demonstrating the JRP, do you have a default?

Thanks.
two things

if we are talking about just getting the thing together I highly recommend allowing 2 and 4 to be slightly heavier... not a whole lot ... but enough to push a music a touch.
those are the beats that swing ...


in the future when you are actually playing music with others your accent will move fluidly and basically constantly in response to the music

check out some Elvin Jones ... he has one to the most unique cymbal feels of all time commonly accenting the "skip" (for lack of a better term) of any beat
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  #70  
Old 10-24-2018, 08:59 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

What Todd said. I am of the opinion (others may disagree) that it's best to start by learning to emphasize the quarter note pulse. Elvin would often emphasize the skip note, but that was in the context of a whole lot of other stuff going on with his comping, so I'd save that for later and just get the quarter thing down for now.


Edit: Just saw Tony's post. Listen to those guys, not me.
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  #71  
Old 10-24-2018, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

The QNP....is the "fif" of 55 right?

Just making sure. Thanks guys.
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  #72  
Old 10-24-2018, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

just as a reference

you work on your time feel in a traditional way so that you can eventually have complete freedom with your time

all that "lang spang a lang" that you worked on is eventually up in the air in particles like Mike TV and you pick and choose which ones you want to land ... and they don't only have to land on the ride cymbal

so yes ... is extremely important to get your ride feel together traditionally so that you can eventually play like this

even though this was recorded in 1997 it is evolution at it's best in my opinion

Jorge Rossi is one of the best accompanists of all time if you ask me

check out how me approaches his time and his accompaniment

this is the freedom that comes along the journey

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aMiBYKX-Eo
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Old 10-24-2018, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
The QNP....is the "fif" of 55 right?

Just making sure. Thanks guys.
that would be 2 and 4

the quarter note would be ... five, fif , five, fif
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Old 10-24-2018, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I have a question about accents. While playing around, I found out that it changes the feel depending on where the accent is. On 5, 55, 55, I accent either the "fif" or the "ty", or the "5". I default to accenting the "fif", but have been practicing accenting the other notes. I even tried accenting the space between the notes, but no, that didn't work :)

I was wondering if you guys default to an accent or you put the accent where you want and have no default. If there was no music playing and you were demonstrating the JRP, do you have a default?

Thanks.
Defaults are bad. The only reason you should use an accent is that you hear or know something in the song would sound better with it. Think of this as the "money beat" for jazz; nobody specifically has any default accents, but they sure start to come in handy when the music is going!

More important in my opinion to develop the ability to put accents anywhere you want. Run through tables of sub-divisions to a click and work on moving the accent notes around within the same pattern. Then do the same thing while keeping the ol 55 going.

I remember when I first went back to my teacher after a week of working on the basic jazz ride pattern with the basic time keeping around the kit. I was super proud and had it sounding alright... Then she goes "okay, let's out in an accent. I want a snare note on the 3 while you play jazz time."

Man, I tell you, for my rock and roll brain, that was just too much. I'm still working on being "free" while I play that ride beat. I lose fluidity when I start doing too much around the kit, and back then, even one new note was "too much"!

My holy grail, my biggest jazz goal as assigned by our resident jazz bad-ass Tony is to learn and get through Max's solo in "stompin at the savoy". It's absolutely masterful and the feel throughout all this rhythmic mastery is great. ... Like I say, in my case, very long term goal.
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Last edited by Dr_Watso; 10-24-2018 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 10-30-2018, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: The jazz ride pattern

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Originally Posted by WhoIsTony? View Post
that would be 2 and 4

the quarter note would be ... five, fif , five, fif
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