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  #121  
Old 10-17-2017, 06:02 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Absolutist statements are always stupid.
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  #122  
Old 10-17-2017, 06:10 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
You're being kicked out of the band because your lack of preparation resulted in the loss of future gigs.

Customers with negative consumer experiences are far less likely to book subsequent bands.

Ultimately, you're screwing the ecosystem and pissing into the well from which we all drink.

It's not all about you.
What is the lack of preparation? If it's a lack of preparation on my part for not saying no one can use my instrument, it's equally a lack of preparation on the other members for not declaring anyone's instrument is up for grab at any moment's notice.

I wouldn't want to be associated with people who would be so inconsiderate as to volunteer my personal possessions under the assumption I wouldn't mind or that my opinion and wishes are completely irrelevant. I don't believe it's about some greater good; it's a matter of principal. I would never ask that of someone and if someone expected it of me we I doubt we could have a healthy working relationship.

I don't see it as being any different than if a roommate loaned out your car and your bedroom while you were on vacation so that they could make a few extra bucks.

As far as the customer goes, there's a difference in making the customer happy and allowing them to walk all over you. I think this falls into the latter category.
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  #123  
Old 10-17-2017, 06:33 PM
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And if there was damage to the kit, who pays?
well the keyboardist or whomever didi the damage of course. My point was any of us can feel anyway we want about this, you don't need to be vindicated. As said over and over, some share, some don't .....and its all OK
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  #124  
Old 10-17-2017, 07:30 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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What is the lack of preparation?
This was spelled out on page one.

Performers should be prepared for gigs that require shared equipment, guest performers, sit-ins, shared-stages, shared merch tables, "can our Gfriends hang in the green room?", stage dancers, drunkards who want to sing, etc. None of these occurrences are uncommon, and it's always going to be inconvenient.

When it happens, as it did in the OPs instance, everyone should 'already' be on the same frequency. The discussion on what conditions need to be followed to say "yes" should have happened before the band decided to play it's first professional gig.

There's more to preparation than simply being a musician and playing an instrument. You have to be prepared to perform, socialize, haul gear, run a business, handle press, run sound, etc.

To illustrate this with an example in preparedness.... When I toured, I always had two SM58's. One was mine and always mine. The other was for anyone else. Consider it remarkable that I've played several thousand shows and don't have oral herpes, never got mono, never got strep... Never gave it to other performers as well. In our clubs, we disinfect mics between performers, sometimes a dozen times on open-mic and karaoke nights.

That little bit of preparedness, and similar initiatives, are what cultivates an ecosystem and keeps it healthy and profitable. Dead weight gets smart or gets cut. Preferably the former.
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  #125  
Old 10-17-2017, 07:44 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

KamaK, what do you disinfect the mic with? That's probably a good practice I should introduce at our open mic.
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  #126  
Old 10-17-2017, 07:52 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
This was spelled out on page one.

Performers should be prepared for gigs that require shared equipment, guest performers, sit-ins, shared-stages, shared merch tables, "can our Gfriends hang in the green room?", stage dancers, drunkards who want to sing, etc. None of these occurrences are uncommon, and it's always going to be inconvenient.

When it happens, as it did in the OPs instance, everyone should 'already' be on the same frequency. The discussion on what conditions need to be followed to say "yes" should have happened before the band decided to play it's first professional gig.

There's more to preparation than simply being a musician and playing an instrument. You have to be prepared to perform, socialize, haul gear, run a business, handle press, run sound, etc.

To illustrate this with an example in preparedness.... When I toured, I always had two SM58's. One was mine and always mine. The other was for anyone else. Consider it remarkable that I've played several thousand shows and don't have oral herpes, never got mono, never got strep... Never gave it to other performers as well. In our clubs, we disinfect mics between performers, sometimes a dozen times on open-mic and karaoke nights.

That little bit of preparedness, and similar initiatives, are what cultivates an ecosystem and keeps it healthy and profitable. Dead weight gets smart or gets cut. Preferably the former.
I agree with you that it's prudent to have a written agreement between band members declaring how this and other situations will be handled. I don't, however, believe that just because the keyboard player put forth the issue first that everyone should be forced to go along with his approach. He acted unprofessionally when he agreed to let the other group play without consulting his own band, and again in the way he talked down his bandmate.

I see it all too often where people believe that if they state their idea first or the loudest then everyone must go along with it. My fiance and I am running into this problem constantly while trying to plan our wedding.
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  #127  
Old 10-17-2017, 07:54 PM
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KamaK, what do you disinfect the mic with? That's probably a good practice I should introduce at our open mic.
When I toured, I used a spray bottle with ~10% H2O2 and a toothbrush. Unfortunately, the ball on my SM58 began to rust about a year into touring and had to be replaced.

In the clubs, we use a spray/mist bottle with isopropyl alcohol, because it disinfects and evaporates very quickly, so no rust.

I've walked up to mics where they've tried to be ecological and use vinegar.... NOPE! (I could see this benefiting bands that need to take their "mean face" to another level)
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  #128  
Old 10-17-2017, 07:57 PM
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KamaK, what do you disinfect the mic with? That's probably a good practice I should introduce at our open mic.
You share your Mic with random strangers without disinfecting? Can I borrow your toothbrush?
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  #129  
Old 10-17-2017, 07:58 PM
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When I toured, I used a spray bottle with ~10% H2O2 and a toothbrush. Unfortunately, the ball on my SM58 began to rust about a year into touring and had to be replaced.

In the clubs, we use a spray/mist bottle with isopropyl alcohol, because it disinfects and evaporates very quickly, so no rust.

I've walked up to mics where they've tried to be ecological and use vinegar.... NOPE!

interesting. Thanks! I was thinking about maybe hand sanitizer gel or something, or the alcohol wet-wipes, but thought the smell might be annoying.
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  #130  
Old 10-17-2017, 08:01 PM
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You share your Mic with random strangers without disinfecting? Can I borrow your toothbrush?
Being a drummer, I only touch the mic when I'm setting it up on the stand for other people in the aforementioned open mic to use. I have a very deep voice that's really only suitable for crooning anyway.

Just thinking it would be good to leave some type of sanitizer up there near the mic for those who are inclined to worry about it.
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  #131  
Old 10-17-2017, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by TheElectricCompany View Post
He acted unprofessionally when he agreed to let the other group play without consulting his own band, and again in the way he talked down his bandmate.

The keyboardist acted professionally by servicing the customer's request.

The keyboardist, and band, acted unprofessionally by not having it sorted ahead of time, and instead of sorting it out immediately afterward, causing an escalation of malcontent rather than saying, "Hey guys, this shouldn't have happened. How do we fix this so it isn't a problem next time?".

Or TLDR...

The keyboardist wasn't the problem, he was the symptom of the problem.
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  #132  
Old 10-17-2017, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
The keyboardist acted professionally by servicing the customer's request.

The keyboardist, and band, acted unprofessionally by not having it sorted ahead of time, and instead of sorting it out immediately afterward, causing an escalation of malcontent rather than saying, "Hey guys, this shouldn't have happened. How do we fix this so it isn't a problem next time?".

Or TLDR...

The keyboardist wasn't the problem, he was the symptom of the problem.
Symptom of the problem or not, I believe the keyboardist exacerbated the issue.

At what point do you consider the customer's request too great? I have to think it's somewhere well before being told that your instruments are going to be used by complete strangers. In my mind that is unquestionably an unreasonable request. I'm assuming that as a band for hire they have some sort of written agreement with the customer, and even if that agreement doesn't explicitly state that no one is allowed to sit in on the show it shouldn't be up to the band to satisfy this particular request. Again, when does a request become unreasonable? Only when you've outlined that specific item as a no-go in your contract?
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  #133  
Old 10-17-2017, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

rant

The customer is NOT always right.

A customer does not have the right to come into a pre-contracted arrangement and demand adjustment.

They can ask but they may not be accommodated.

Any need for equipment usage outside of the original contract can be politely declined with the highest level of integrity...just like a customer cannot expect to come into a store, buy one item and expect to walk out with a bunch of other stuff as well without paying for it...especially things that are not for sale in the first place.

Allowing yourself to be walked on is a bad business practice and should not be done...and people with a problem with you working up to and within your contracted obligation are people you do not want to do business with.

I would rather have a reputation for being a clear, honest and respectful business man than one you can get stuff from for free.

It seems the music industry abounds with folks afraid to have anything bad said about them...even when the originator of the bad comment is specious...hence all of the overly positive unclear praise heaped on things in interviews...when you can clearly hear between the lines that the interview-ie would like to say..."it/he/she sucks".

Ahh...the politically correct beast and its machinations...and its manipulation in the business of music...

You ARE being taken financial advantage of ...when you supply a good or service for free and are manipulated into providing it.

/rant
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  #134  
Old 10-17-2017, 08:35 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Originally Posted by TheElectricCompany View Post
Again, when does a request become unreasonable?
Open flames. Bodily fluid exchanges. Unlubricated insertions. Edibles containing okra.... I'd have to find our old rider for the full list.

;-)
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  #135  
Old 10-17-2017, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
The keyboardist acted professionally by servicing the customer's request.

The keyboardist, and band, acted unprofessionally by not having it sorted ahead of time, and instead of sorting it out immediately afterward, causing an escalation of malcontent rather than saying, "Hey guys, this shouldn't have happened. How do we fix this so it isn't a problem next time?".

Or TLDR...

The keyboardist wasn't the problem, he was the symptom of the problem.
No, the keyboard guy was the problem - he should have informed the customer that his request wasn't part of the initial agreement and he would have to check with the band to see if they were willing to allow total strangers to use their equipment.

If you employ a tradesman you benefit from his craftsmanship - you don't get to use, or loan out his tools.
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  #136  
Old 10-17-2017, 08:48 PM
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well the keyboardist or whomever didi the damage of course. My point was any of us can feel anyway we want about this, you don't need to be vindicated. As said over and over, some share, some don't .....and its all OK
OK, and HOW Pray tell, do we ENFORCE that when the time comes? I prefer to PREVENT the damage, rather than find ways to make up for it.

I stand with my statement. NO ONE uses my gear without MY express permission. PERIOD. Not a drum kit, not a guitar pick. I have been burned too many times.
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  #137  
Old 10-17-2017, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

OK, here's another situation. Have you ever been in a band that is forming, or replacing a member, and had someone force someone on you that you could not tolerate?

I recently tried to form MY OWN BAND. I found a guitarist/vocalist I liked. I played bass and had a good drummer.

The other guitarist brought in a kid 15 years younger than us, which was fine, but his personality was intolerable. He was fine when practice started, but after 8 beers he became inflexible and obnoxious. He wanted to change the entire format of the band to HIS style of music, REFUSED to play half of what we'd already learned, and then sat AFTER playing LOUD while we were breaking up to go home.

I tried to explain to the guitarist I liked that he wasn't what I was looking for, that our personalities didn't match, and that I'd like to try out another guy I knew.

He kept bringing the kid back, so I broke up the entire thing, and haven't spoken to the guy I liked since.

This incident was one of the reasons I have given up "band" work. Too much hassle for too little reward (In this area where the music scene sucks anyway).
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  #138  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:00 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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No, the keyboard guy was the problem - he should have informed the customer that his request wasn't part of the initial agreement and he would have to check with the band to see if they were willing to allow total strangers to use their equipment.
And that's perfectly fine if you don't want to play at the subsequent weddings of his other two daughters. There are a bunch of DJ's sitting in the wings just waiting for bands to lose their shit over such trivial matters. I'll happily continue this conversation in the "Where did all the good gigs go?" thread.
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  #139  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:09 PM
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And that's perfectly fine if you don't want to play at the subsequent weddings of his other two daughters. There are a bunch of DJ's sitting in the wings just waiting for bands to lose their shit over such trivial matters. I'll happily continue this conversation in the "Where did all the good gigs go?" thread.
I don't understand how allowing complete strangers free access to your instrument is a trivial matter. Would you feel the same way if someone volunteered your car to their teenage child?
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  #140  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:24 PM
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I don't understand how allowing complete strangers free access to your instrument is a trivial matter. Would you feel the same way if someone volunteered your car to their teenage child?
Because it's not free access, and it's not analogous to the teen/car example.

You control what they have access to, because you're prepared. You pull your three B8/ZBT backup cymbals out of the gig bag, the gnarly sticks that you have as last-resort-spares and were going to throw out anyway, let them know they can adjust the drum stool (only), you break it you buy it, and let them go to town.

After they're done, you tell them how great they were, laugh at their stupid jokes, etc. You then tell the father of the bride what a great time you and the band had, and how lovely and happy his daughter looked.

The only decision you should have to make on the fly is "chicken or fish".
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  #141  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:27 PM
Mozart1220 Mozart1220 is offline
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And that's perfectly fine if you don't want to play at the subsequent weddings of his other two daughters. There are a bunch of DJ's sitting in the wings just waiting for bands to lose their shit over such trivial matters. I'll happily continue this conversation in the "Where did all the good gigs go?" thread.
So destruction of valuable gear is a "trivial matter" to you? Wow, you sure can tell which "musicians" make too much money.
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  #142  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by KamaK View Post
The keyboardist acted professionally by servicing the customer's request.

The keyboardist, and band, acted unprofessionally by not having it sorted ahead of time, and instead of sorting it out immediately afterward, causing an escalation of malcontent rather than saying, "Hey guys, this shouldn't have happened. How do we fix this so it isn't a problem next time?".

Or TLDR...

The keyboardist wasn't the problem, he was the symptom of the problem.
This is like the "Twilight Zone"....lol... You are very entertaining Kamak!

So, just to clarify, if the keyboardist's drunk girlfriend told the father that it would be "no problem" for his son's band to use the gear and play a set...

The band, if they are *really* "professional", MUST satisfy the request, because afterall, she is only a "symptom" and not the problem?

I have to believe you are chuckling while typing this stuff out.... I know I'm chuckling as I read it!

Last edited by Mongrel; 10-17-2017 at 09:45 PM.
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  #143  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:42 PM
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Because it's not free access, and it's not analogous to the teen/car example.

You control what they have access to, because you're prepared. You pull your three B8/ZBT backup cymbals out of the gig bag, the gnarly sticks that you have as last-resort-spares and were going to throw out anyway, let them know they can adjust the drum stool (only), you break it you buy it, and let them go to town.

After they're done, you tell them how great they were, laugh at their stupid jokes, etc. You then tell the father of the bride what a great time you and the band had, and how lovely and happy his daughter looked.

The only decision you should have to make on the fly is "chicken or fish".
I will, however, give you credit for the above level of preparedness. If you indeed were that prepared you are to be commended....

I would also add, that any "father of the bride" who didn't understand the validity of a resounding "no" to his last minute and highly presumptuous request, is a father I'd probably not want to play a second and third wedding for...
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  #144  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:44 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Ok folks, next time any of you do a gig in a relatively informal setting, just tell your lead guitarist that your kid brother/sister/son/daughter's band are playing too and that you have told their guitarist that it'll be fine to use all your guitarist's gear, guitar, lead, amp, pedal board, the lot. You can be sure you'll get told where to go.

It really does seem that it's drummers who are always the ones who are expected to roll over and that their kit is seen as some piece of playground equipment that anyone can jump on whenever they want.
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  #145  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:47 PM
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Open flames. Bodily fluid exchanges. Unlubricated insertions. Edibles containing okra.... I'd have to find our old rider for the full list.

;-)
There's some really good dishes of Indian origin containing okra. Just sayin. The problem with that vegetable is the slime factor, but prepared correctly, that nice bitterness is a good flavor.

Update: whilst looking at Okra dish recipes after posting, I came across the fact that Okra is a fruit, not a vegetable.
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  #146  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:49 PM
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The only decision you should have to make on the fly is "chicken or fish".
You could even go Pescatarian and avoid this potential decision!
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  #147  
Old 10-17-2017, 09:50 PM
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...It really does seem that it's drummers who are always the ones who are expected to roll over and that their kit is seen as some piece of playground equipment that anyone can jump on whenever they want.
Seriously agree....

So, the solution is pretty simple. If you are playing in a band and want to compete at the level Kamak and others have indicated, and "the band" intends to be as accommodating as possible to the "father's of the brides" and other people paying for your services-

Then the entity known as "the band" can add a drum kit to the GROUP expenses, complete with those extra cymbals and those chewed up sticks that kamak mentioned. This way the drummer is covered and "the band" is covered...

Sounds like a win-win, no?
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  #148  
Old 10-17-2017, 10:00 PM
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OK, and HOW Pray tell, do we ENFORCE that when the time comes? I prefer to PREVENT the damage, rather than find ways to make up for it.

I stand with my statement. NO ONE uses my gear without MY express permission. PERIOD. Not a drum kit, not a guitar pick. I have been burned too many times.
How, to enforce? No prayer involved. How about openly demanding the keyboard player to cover the damage he caused, or the patron who damaged it. You know we all have a voice. If he had any decency he would offer.

You're still not getting it. Its ok....I mean ITS OK that NO ONE uses your gear. That works for YOU. But this doesn't have to do with people making too much money, or not, so no need to go there judging members here, if they have money, or not, and what kind of musicians they are, to lend their gear. Its OK, nobody uses YOUR gear. I think WE get that.
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  #149  
Old 10-17-2017, 10:14 PM
crispycritters crispycritters is offline
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And that's perfectly fine if you don't want to play at the subsequent weddings of his other two daughters. There are a bunch of DJ's sitting in the wings just waiting for bands to lose their shit over such trivial matters. I'll happily continue this conversation in the "Where did all the good gigs go?" thread.
After what happened to the original poster I'd decline any subsequent offers - this would be a 'good gig' I could live without. The OP played the good guy and was amenable by letting the guy use his drums, provided he use his own personals, which was agreed - then totally ignored, and he retuned his drums for shits and giggles. I guess there is a difference of opinion on what constitutes a trivial matter and being abused.
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  #150  
Old 10-17-2017, 10:19 PM
williamsbclontz williamsbclontz is online now
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This thread is reminding me of an episode of Judge Judy, where drummer Robert Williams was suing Johnny Rotten over his drums, and whether or not they were used after he was let go, or quit because he was supposedly hit.
This thread is reminding me of the movie stepbrothers when Dale continually warned Will Ferrell not to touch his drums, and then Will Ferrell put his ________ on his drum kit

Last edited by williamsbclontz; 10-17-2017 at 10:26 PM. Reason: Censored
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  #151  
Old 10-17-2017, 10:27 PM
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Because it's not free access, and it's not analogous to the teen/car example.

You control what they have access to, because you're prepared. You pull your three B8/ZBT backup cymbals out of the gig bag, the gnarly sticks that you have as last-resort-spares and were going to throw out anyway, let them know they can adjust the drum stool (only), you break it you buy it, and let them go to town.

After they're done, you tell them how great they were, laugh at their stupid jokes, etc. You then tell the father of the bride what a great time you and the band had, and how lovely and happy his daughter looked.

The only decision you should have to make on the fly is "chicken or fish".
It's analogous in that someone thinks they have free reign of your personal possession because they want it, not because they have any right to it. Would it be analogous if a professional race car driver were asked to swap out his track tires so that the kid down the block could give it a spin?

It sounds to me like you're suggesting the alternative to not having back up gear for this exact situation is to either allow anyone access to your equipment as is, or to not be in a performing band at all.

If you believe someone should be so prepared as to allow and encourage the use of their instrument by a stranger as a perfectly reasonable request then I can probably think of a million other things that you wouldn't say no to.

I mean, where do you draw the line? Is it cool if someone sings back up for a few songs? What if someone sees your cowbell and it's not enough to yell "More cowbell," but he actually wants to play it during your set? If you've got an extra mic for the singer and a cheap cowbell you're not worried about, what's the harm? Does it matter more to give these jackoffs the opportunity to feel special than it does not to alienate an audience that might not get the joke, or even realize theses tools are not a part of the act? I certainly know what the professional choice is, which seems to be the crux of this discussion.

How do you handle song requests? If someone asks even once for Freebird, do you oblige? What if after Freebird someone wants to hear Stairway? Never mind that you're a jazz combo that doesn't actually have those in your repertoire. Does every band need to know every popular song?

Seriously, how far is too far?
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:30 PM
Mozart1220 Mozart1220 is offline
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How, to enforce? No prayer involved. How about openly demanding the keyboard player to cover the damage he caused, or the patron who damaged it. You know we all have a voice. If he had any decency he would offer.

You're still not getting it. Its ok....I mean ITS OK that NO ONE uses your gear. That works for YOU. But this doesn't have to do with people making too much money, or not, so no need to go there judging members here, if they have money, or not, and what kind of musicians they are, to lend their gear. Its OK, nobody uses YOUR gear. I think WE get that.
If someone thinks damage to expensive gear is "trivial" then they either have more money than they need, or they are stupid and probably won't have the gear needed to survive as a working musician very long. You choose.

And like I said, I'd rather PREVENT the damage in the first place, than try and get reparations AFTER the fact. I stand firm on this.


And "Pray tell" is a figure of speech.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:54 PM
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opentune opentune is offline
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And "Pray tell" is a figure of speech.
Indeed, and tongue in cheek is too, ....with or without caps. You do realize caps is for shouting right?
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:11 PM
Mozart1220 Mozart1220 is offline
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Indeed, and tongue in cheek is too, ....with or without caps. You do realize caps is for shouting right?
It's also for emphasis.

The bottom line is that no one gets to offer use of my gear to anyone.
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Anyone want to borrow Mozart1220's gear? Give me a shout. You can re-arrange anything you want.
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:22 PM
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TheElectricCompany TheElectricCompany is offline
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Anyone want to borrow Mozart1220's gear? Give me a shout. You can re-arrange anything you want.
Ha!

2020202020202020202020
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Old 10-18-2017, 12:31 AM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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...but after 8 beers he became inflexible and obnoxious...
No shit! Really?! That happened to you, too?

...
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Old 10-18-2017, 12:32 AM
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BacteriumFendYoke BacteriumFendYoke is offline
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Anyone want to borrow Mozart1220's gear? Give me a shout. You can re-arrange anything you want.
I'll have a guitar pick. One of the small, green, oval Tortex ones.
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Old 10-18-2017, 01:28 AM
Mozart1220 Mozart1220 is offline
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Anyone want to borrow Mozart1220's gear? Give me a shout. You can re-arrange anything you want.
Come get it. See how it works out.
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Old 10-18-2017, 01:29 AM
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Come get it. See how it works out.
Don't feed them...they will only get more brazen!

;)
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