Drums. Art or Science?

A

aydee

Platinum Member
Does great art include science? Is science an essential part of art? Music, painting, sculpture?
The study of the mechanics of technique so that we can create swathes of creative color we call 'art', in all its manifestations

We talk so much about technique here at Drummerworld, but is that a prerequisite to being the best drummer you can be? Is the mere act of playing an instrument that requires your whole body, in a sense, make drums somewhat of an exception?

It does seem so to me & my way of thinking, but I often wonder what percentage of all the world's great musicians, artists, sculptors, film directors, actors ..etc had any kind of formalized training in their craft? (...... Buddy Rich come to mind?...... ).

I suspect that the list of those who were untrained might be a tad longer than those that had training ( I could be wrong here..), and if that were true, I'd find that odd.Quirk of Fate? Are some endowed with an inner force that doesn't require learning?

What are your feelings?
 
You re delving into the transcendental(sp) here AD... I have always been a firm believer of zen, karma,and do as thy wish...but this seems to remind me of my "lysergic/diethylamide)" days...I.E; questioning the things that make us exist...(I think, therefore I am...)and so on.

Sorry,....got me thinkin there. For me; music, painting and sculpture(+all art forms) along with profound appreciation towards life(nature, weather, and general quest for "further" rewards) have me chasing the tail of an endless entity...Keeps me goin cause without these I might just be another mindless drone sitting in a cubicle everyday....If that ever happens, well, ValHalla calls........Hmmmm

I ll come back to this after some sleep, its been about 36-38 hours now(bad times) so dont mind me, Good topic though..
 
wow i think this is a great thread.threre's so much to say here potentially though lol. there is something beautiful about a pure exhibition of technique such as Thomas Lang which to me, IS as relevant in an artistic sense as great example of a seemingly more expressive connection with the instrument such as John Bonham.


hmmmm.
 
aydee said:
Does great art include science? Is science an essential part of art? Music, painting, sculpture?
The study of the mechanics of technique so that we can create swathes of creative color we call 'art', in all its manifestations

We talk so much about technique here at Drummerworld, but is that a prerequisite to being the best drummer you can be? Is the mere act of playing an instrument that requires your whole body, in a sense, make drums somewhat of an exception?

It does seem so to me & my way of thinking, but I often wonder what percentage of all the world's great musicians, artists, sculptors, film directors, actors ..etc had any kind of formalized training in their craft? (...... Buddy Rich come to mind?...... ).

I suspect that the list of those who were untrained might be a tad longer than those that had training ( I could be wrong here..), and if that were true, I'd find that odd.Quirk of Fate? Are some endowed with an inner force that doesn't require learning?

What are your feelings?
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I think you'll find that training is irrelevant, but practice is essential.

I doubt (I'll admit some room for being incorrect) that you'll find anyone, in any discipline who had it all down the first time they sat down (or stood up, depending on the discipline) and began to work on it.

A person can teach themselves to paint, by painting. A person can teach themselves to sculpt by sculpting. A person can teach themselves to music by music-ing. (Yeah, I verbed a noun, so sue me).

Rates of learning will be different, and having instruction can (often) help, but I'm going to posit two things: (1) No one is a virtuoso the first time they sit down with the craft (2) Outside instruction is not essential.

Aside: Socrates (or Plato, speaking through Socrates) believed that there was no such thing as 'learning', that the 'soul' or whatever carries the knowledge, and all learning is simply remembering what you'd forgotten. Think of that what you will.
 
felonius said:
Aside: Socrates (or Plato, speaking through Socrates) believed that there was no such thing as 'learning', that the 'soul' or whatever carries the knowledge, and all learning is simply remembering what you'd forgotten. Think of that what you will.
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That's heady. A great answer and a lot to think about. And I will.

I tend to agree with everything you said, but how would you explain child prodigies, all those little 4 year old Korean girls who smoke those pianos & violins?
 
aydee said:
That's heady. A great answer and a lot to think about. And I will.

I tend to agree with everything you said, but how would you explain child prodigies, all those little 4 year old Korean girls who smoke those pianos & violins?
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They practice from when they're 2. Or they learn more quickly. Or some combination. It's also easier to learn when you're younger, which is certainly a factor. But they still didn't smoke the piano/violin the first time they sat down at it. They had to learn what sounds came from where (or how to make those sounds, in the case of violin). Then from there you practice. Different amounts of practice have different amounts of success depending on the person.

I'm not trying to say that there's no "natural talent" factor at all. I'm just saying that there has to be *some* practice. Usually a fair amount of it. The more technical the art, the more practice it's going to require. There's more of a 'foundation' which requires building. Once you get past the foundation, the rest adding the personal touches, and taking it to the next level. (I feel like this paragraph has been unclear, but I can't think of a better way to say any of it...)

Another Aside: Once went to an exhibit of Picasso's work (called "The Artist's Studio", focused on his art about art, mostly), and there was a sketch he'd done of a hand at something like the age of 5. Apparently, his father was an art instructor, or something like that, and Picasso spent a lot of time there. The hand was absolutely perfectly detailed. Crazy stuff.
 
felonius said:
They practice from when they're 2. Or they learn more quickly. Or some combination. It's also easier to learn when you're younger, which is certainly a factor. But they still didn't smoke the piano/violin the first time they sat down at it. They had to learn what sounds came from where (or how to make those sounds, in the case of violin). Then from there you practice. Different amounts of practice have different amounts of success depending on the person.

I'm not trying to say that there's no "natural talent" factor at all. I'm just saying that there has to be *some* practice. Usually a fair amount of it. The more technical the art, the more practice it's going to require. There's more of a 'foundation' which requires building. Once you get past the foundation, the rest adding the personal touches, and taking it to the next level. (I feel like this paragraph has been unclear, but I can't think of a better way to say any of it...)

Another Aside: Once went to an exhibit of Picasso's work (called "The Artist's Studio", focused on his art about art, mostly), and there was a sketch he'd done of a hand at something like the age of 5. Apparently, his father was an art instructor, or something like that, and Picasso spent a lot of time there. The hand was absolutely perfectly detailed. Crazy stuff.
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practicing since 2? hmmm......Yes and no. Kids don't have the motor control down at that age to make those intricate moves on those instruments. Violins specially are notoriously difficult instruments to learn & master. Its got to be something else.

On Picasso, his earlier works, his blue period was when he was almost classical and super realistic. Did it really begin at 5 ? wow.

Picasso Aside: He once told a very close friend not to buy one of his paintings at an art auction. His friend asked him " Is it a fake? ". He nodded.

"Are you sure?", asked his friend who absolutely loved the painting and desperately wanted it.

" Yes, I painted it" he replied.
 
aydee said:
practicing since 2? hmmm......Yes and no. Kids don't have the motor control down at that age to make those intricate moves on those instruments. Violins specially are notoriously difficult instruments to learn & master. Its got to be something else.
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Well, I was exaggerating a bit, but I'm going to stand by the fact that there's still a fair amount of practice involved. In order to make an informed judgment, you'd need more details about the child. For example: How well socialized are they? Very frequently, there's a lot of familial pressure to perform, and it frequently starts at a very young age. The result is frequently a loss of socialization skills. This is frequently more true in some countries (such as a fair number of Asian countries, where there's frequently a 'familial duty' ethic (blame Confucius)) than it is in others (such as the USA, where there's more of a focus on what makes the child happy (and there are problems with this, as well, ie: "spoiled brats".))

I'm trying to avoid absolutes. I don't think anything is "always true" or "always false". But, I do definitely thing that there is always going to be a fair amount of practice in anyone appearing skilled. Genius is 99% perspiration, after all.

aydee said:
On Picasso, his earlier works, his blue period was when he was almost classical and super realistic. Did it really begin at 5 ? wow.
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Wikipedia said:
The young Picasso showed a passion and a skill for drawing from an early age; according to his mother, his first words were “piz, piz”, a shortening of lápiz, the Spanish word for ‘pencil’. From the age of seven, Picasso received formal artistic training from his father in figure drawing and oil painting. Ruiz was a traditional, academic artist and instructor who believed that proper training required disciplined copying of the masters, and drawing the human body from plaster casts and live models. His son became preoccupied with art to the detriment of his classwork.

The family moved to La Coruña in 1891 so his father could become a professor at the School of Fine Arts. They stayed almost four years. On one occasion the father found his son painting over his unfinished sketch of a pigeon. Observing the precision of his son’s technique, Ruiz felt that the thirteen-year-old Picasso had surpassed him, and vowed to give up painting.
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So my first guess of "5" may be a little off, though if he was receiving formal training at 7, his drawing my have started sooner than that. I vaguely remember hearing the story before about his father giving up painting because of him (and that's at 13, which is quite impressive).
 
NUTHA JASON said:
Drums. Art or Science ... or sport?

j
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Sport only if there is competition in my opinion, otherwise hobby. I know that's loose
but I don't see even drum line competition as sport. I have been accused of seeing things
as black or white.

From dictionary.com: an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often of a competitive nature, as racing, baseball, tennis, golf, bowling, wrestling, boxing, hunting, fishing, etc.

So who knows.? Maybe an art form requiring some scientific principles and often there is competition.
 
aydee said:
Does great art include science? Is science an essential part of art? Music, painting, sculpture?
The study of the mechanics of technique so that we can create swathes of creative color we call 'art', in all its manifestations

We talk so much about technique here at Drummerworld, but is that a prerequisite to being the best drummer you can be? Is the mere act of playing an instrument that requires your whole body, in a sense, make drums somewhat of an exception?

It does seem so to me & my way of thinking, but I often wonder what percentage of all the world's great musicians, artists, sculptors, film directors, actors ..etc had any kind of formalized training in their craft? (...... Buddy Rich come to mind?...... ).

I suspect that the list of those who were untrained might be a tad longer than those that had training ( I could be wrong here..), and if that were true, I'd find that odd.Quirk of Fate? Are some endowed with an inner force that doesn't require learning?

What are your feelings?
Click to expand...

Yes, and to think that Buddy was untrained is false. Buddy spent a lot of time on technical matters, not as they pertained to "overly-drummistic activities. " But how drumming realted to human anatomy. He couldn't read music but he certainly knew his rudiments, that's for sure. Elvin Jones is another one who comes to mind. he says he used to practice 6-8 hours a day. I don't know what he was practicing; but I don't know that you come up with some of the stuff he did other than by talent. But was is talent if not the desire to sit with your craft 6-8 hours a day?

Historically, many great artist, Da Vinci and Goethe comes to mind were scientist, as were the romantics, who were intrigued by nature after all. Was it Da Vinci or Michelangelo who could draw a perfect circle? Then the twentieth century came around and people decided that a skull and coke bottle was art. It's not art if I can do it myself. :)

you probably knew how I would answer. :)

now this is technique:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6PWzTpy1mY
 
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mattsmith said:
I think this conversation travels into the familiar direction of technique and artistic considerations not being mutually exclusive.

IMO drum forums are loaded with guys trying to figure out the easiest way from point A to point B, hoping they can reach a high level without doing too much work. So they get on the just play and all good things will come kick, talk about how Buddy Rich was able to do it /as if that exception applies to anyone else/ and push Kenny Werner's Effortless Mastery more than other instrumentalists, while trying to downplay practical technique as the downfall of everything, to the point of dissing people who practice. The fact that drummers as a group are already paranoid about status makes this whole sideways zen routine all the easier.

Living around brass players clued me into the fact that they do much the same thing. Talk to a brass player about the science of pressure vs. non pressure if you don't believe me.They're obsessed with all that stuff, and embrochure, mouthpiece placement, technical players vs. lyrical, the different tones and a million other things. So we're not the only ones. But once a trumpet player figures things out, he combines his technical and artistic concerns and gets on with his life. For some reason we drummers insist on believing that our issues are more public and severe.

Maybe we as a group need to get out more.
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Are we even in the same area? Did someone pinch a nerve or what? I did not get any of what you are saying in reference to this thread, I do not recall anyone moaning about their status or practice.
 
Interesting thread...my 3 kids (now grown) are all musicians (the oldest daughter is a band director) and when they were younger we would have the discussion about practicing and why they needed to do so...being able to play notes, patterns, chord structures, effortlessly is all about "technique" and what practicing is all about...being able to take that ability and use it to make music is the ART part in my opinion. If you don't practice and know how to do something without having to think too much about it you won't be able to play what is in your mind/heart effectively.

There are those who are technically very good drummers who may not be musical at all...there are those who are very musical but lack the technique to translate their musicality into reality because they do not practice or know the fundamentals...the same for all musicians and other artistic areas...why good actors always work at their craft.

Nutha, as far as sport is concerned, there is definitely a competitive class of drummers...those who want to be faster, have bigger and better kits, etc. and they is nothing wrong with that aspect as long as it is understood for what it is...not necessarily about music but about the "sport". A lot of fun for those who are interested in that aspect.

Hopefully we all will get to the stage where we know our abilities, keep striving to improve them and are able to relate them to being a musician and making music...what it is about for me anyway...

Jack
 
felonius said:
Aside: Socrates (or Plato, speaking through Socrates) believed that there was no such thing as 'learning', that the 'soul' or whatever carries the knowledge, and all learning is simply remembering what you'd forgotten. Think of that what you will.
Click to expand...

Actually, no. In terms of the knowledge that Socrates and Plato were worried about, there was no concept of "forgetting" as we use it. There was "ignorance" or "blindness" but that isn't toward what the individual already knows (knowledge inside him or herself) but in what the cosmos is (the divine order of things).

P.S. Drumming is a science.
 
aydee said:
I tend to agree with everything you said, but how would you explain child prodigies, all those little 4 year old Korean girls who smoke those pianos & violins?
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This might answer your question.

In a number of Asian countries (I'm told) there is research into "Spaced Repetition Learning", which involves playing classical music to newborn babies all the time, for about 3 weeks, then switching the piece. At about 2 the child is given lessons on an instrument, getting longer and more frequent with time. By the time the child is old enough to know that their instrument is supposed to be difficult to play they have mastered it. It takes advantage of the fact that technique comes naturally to children below the age of 10, though spaced repetition can be used to teach adults as well.

It's also applied to learning languages a lot, and recently programming languages.
 
For many years the drums are considered Art. Art is an integral part of culture, roots, beliefs, customs of people and countries, feelings, inspiration.

Cheers,
 
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Categorized...

Drumming as:

An Art: It is a culturally rooted form of communication and celebration dating back to primative man. Expressing emotion through playing without technical constraints.

As a Science: There are no shortcuts. the best drummers now forge thier skills in the fires of study and effective practice. The idea is to break down and analyze drumming into time and phrasing, texture and dynamic to formulate and perfect playing. Good drummers practice until they get it right. Great drummers practice until they never get it wrong. Getting better through hard work.

As a Sport: harnessing and melding ones natural speed with fast-twitch training and techniques to push the boundaries of speed in competition.

As a hobby: Enjoying the pasttime of playing, building, modifying discussing and even photographing just for the enjoyment, and not necessarily financial gain.
 
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