After all this time....

New Tricks

Platinum Member
I think I learned something new today.

First, I am not a musician, just a wannabe drummer. I have been paid to play a few hundred times, in the olden days.

I knew of the rudiments but never paid much attention. Same thing with the technical end of music. I just listened, learned songs and played.

In my comeback attempt I have focused on rudiments, and retraining my left foot to play double kicks. In a month I have made enough progress to keep me encouraged. I was pounding out combinations of single stroke rolls, double stroke rolls and paradiddles, pretty clean in what I think is 4/4 time at 160 (two kicks per) on the metronome.

Well, today I THINK I accidentally learned what 3/4 time is and now I have to spend another week starting almost from scratch. I was trying to play some old licks at the same tempo and was like, WTH? It took me several minutes to understand what had happened.



Crap. This stuff is complicated
jester.gif
 
I'd suggest not starting over "from scratch" whenever you find a new time signature. Learn in 4's, then just alter your counting to use different sigs.

Remember, 3/4 is still the same quarter-notes... It's just that the count starts over at 3 instead of going to 4.
 
Not that I am accomplished in many advanced time signitures or anything, but 3/4 is about as easy as it comes, hell its one less than 4 and watso mentioned you're still using the quarter note

5/8 is just 5 notes per bar, and the 8th note gets one beat

Good Luck! They really aren't all that difficult!
 
And when you start getting into larger values, say 13/8 it can be explained(or 'subdivided) into 3+3+2+2+3

Still eight note getting the beat and you break up the first value, that tells you 'how many' per measure.

This subdivision concept really started helping me understand different times.

It can always be broken down, no one counts to 32, they count to four, eight times, or divided as they see fit.
 
First, set me straight if I am wrong.

I'm thinking 3/4 is one two three two two three three two three four two three and 4/4 is one two three four two two three four three two three four four two three four.

It seems that some rudiments won't fit in 3/4. At this point, I can't comprehend how to do a simple double stroke roll. I've made some progress with a single stroke roll but It seems I will need to go to some other tiple style rudiments to fit in.

If I'm confused, help me out.
 
You're a little off there - what you've stumbled upon are triplet based time signatures like 6/8 or 12/8 (don't worry about the math too much yet).

4/4 refers to four quarter notes (or beats) in the bar. So: 1 2 3 4

3/4 refers to four quarters (or beats) which means one less: 1 2 3

Breaking it down in your system of understanding, 3/4 would be counted as such:

one two three four two two three four three two three four

In 4/4 or regular time, you generally divide each beat into four groups, just like you've been doing all along. The first "4" referst to how many beats, the second "4" refers to how many times you divide it. So in 3/4, you have three beats, and divide each one the same way as you would in 4/4 time.

Triplet based time signatures, such as the one you've stumbled upon, instead divide the beat into 3 parts instead of 4... and usually aren't counted using "4" as the basic count. What you thought was 3/4 is actually referred to as 12/8:

one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve

You see? Feel free to bounce more questions off of us if you have any, it can be a little confusing at first.
 
Thanks for the explanation.

3/4 is the same as 4/4 with one less beat per bar which wouldn't seem to affect any rudimenary playing much.


Is it likely to learn double stroke rolls while keeping the 12/8 beat with the kicks? Maybe it just as easy (or difficult) as any other lick. All I know is that it hurts my head.
 
You having trouble with 3/4? You've got a long trip ahead of you buddy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY0-k4uaKKA
There are 19 time signatures in this song (no joke, you can count if you're up for it) including 15/8, 13/8, 11/8, 18/8, 9/8, 7/4, etc.


Haha I'm just messing with you. New time signatures are hard for everyone.
Key tips:

Play with a metronome
Count along with the metronome
Play with a metronome
Take it slow at first and gradually build up
Play with a metronome
If you feel you are off you probably are, so start over
Play with a metronome

Did I mention you should play with a metronome? ;)
 
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Thanks for the explanation.

3/4 is the same as 4/4 with one less beat per bar which wouldn't seem to affect any rudimenary playing much.


Is it likely to learn double stroke rolls while keeping the 12/8 beat with the kicks? Maybe it just as easy (or difficult) as any other lick. All I know is that it hurts my head.

3/4 has no relation to 12/8. Don't try to mix and match them (advanced concept).

Double strokes are the same as they are in 4/4 but with only 3 beats.

4/4
R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L

3/4
R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L

You can play along with the bass drum if you want. The bass drum will hit on 1, 2, and 3.

Double strokes are tricky in 12/8 because 12/8 is a triplet based time and double strokes are a sixteenth note based rudiment. Generally, in sixteenth rudiments, the 1st, 4th, 8th, etc. notes get the beat (the accent.)
In triplet rudiments, the 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc. notes get the beat.
 
All great advice above, OP, 3/4 is not hard whatsoever, if you feel somewhat comfortable with 4/4 you've already got it down!

Like you said, it is 4/4 without the last ...4 - 2 -3 - 4

All you have to do is omit the last measure and you've got it!
 
Playing doubles (a two or four note pattern) over a triplet based time signature (which uses three note patterns) can feel pretty weird the first time you try it. You have to get used to having the SECOND note of your double land ON the beat, whereas usually the first note always starts right on the beat. Takes a little time and practice, but once you get it, it opens up a whole new world of phrasing possibilities.

one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve

R-----R------L-----L----R-----R------L-------L-----R----R------L-------L

(Hope that formatted right)
 
3/4 has no relation to 12/8. Don't try to mix and match them (advanced concept).

Double strokes are the same as they are in 4/4 but with only 3 beats.

4/4
R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L

3/4
R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L-R-R-L-L


Yeah, I got that. I was just confusing the terms.

You can play along with the bass drum if you want. The bass drum will hit on 1, 2, and 3.


I ALWAYS use the kicks because the double bass is new to me and it seems like a waste of time not to use them.

Double strokes are tricky in 12/8 because 12/8 is a triplet based time and double strokes are a sixteenth note based rudiment. .

Tricky or nearly impossible :) ?

You seem to understand exactly what's going on here. Thanks for your help. I will probably bypass this little speed bump and maybe address it later. I suppose it would simply be a matter of identifying triplet based rudiments and using them.


Thanks again. You rock!


Takes a little time and practice, but once you get it, it opens up a whole new world of phrasing possibilities.

one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve

R-----R------L-----L----R-----R------L-------L-----R----R------L-------L


Crikey.....let me try that
 
Holy crap. I can see the possibilities. It's painfully slow but I think I will be able to pick it up. I just started with the single stroke (slowly) then tried to put the sticks on autopilot and set them to double bounce.

snare= r.r.l.l.r.r.l.l.r.r.l.l
kicks= r.....l.....r.....l...

It's a good thing I have a lot of time on my hands.

OK...about 40 minutes in and it's mapped (barely) in my brain. Kicks are only @ 100BPM and requires full concentration to stay anywhere close. It's on he practice list so, we will see if it progresses. I get really bored playing soooo slowly but I know it's the only way to get there. Thanks again.
 
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If you're getting bored, try moving your hands to different instruments, say RH on the floor tom and LH on the hat (or whatever sounds good to you.) Moving around the kit is eventually where you'll want to be anyway, and it might help keep you in the zone while your figuring it out at a slow tempo.
 
Holy crap. I can see the possibilities. It's painfully slow but I think I will be able to pick it up. I just started with the single stroke (slowly) then tried to put the sticks on autopilot and set them to double bounce.

snare= r.r.l.l.r.r.l.l.r.r.l.l
kicks= r.....l.....r.....l...

It's a good thing I have a lot of time on my hands.

OK...about 40 minutes in and it's mapped (barely) in my brain. Kicks are only @ 100BPM and requires full concentration to stay anywhere close. It's on he practice list so, we will see if it progresses. I get really bored playing soooo slowly but I know it's the only way to get there. Thanks again.

Make sure to practice other rudiments as well. The flam tap is a great one, as is the paradiddle and all the variations of it.

Get the book "Stick Control" if you don't already have it. There aren't many professionals who haven't used it at least once in their life, most use it hundreds.
 
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