The disconnect between musicians perspectives and audience perspective

Thinking about it, if the situation arises where someone asks to sit in with the band, what do you guys think if I said, 'how about a drum solo instead? How would that go over? I mean that's what he was doing anyway. Mainly to spare the guys in the band.

Be sure to get a deposit from the player...so you can replace what is damaged....
 
The musician/non-musician status of the audience can really influence the situation. Drums can sound impressive even when played with relative incompetence or lack of skill. A non-musician will tell you it sounds great while a musician could tell you it sucks. I've experienced many non-musicians telling me my drumming sounded great when I new otherwise and so did my drum tutor.
One of the most important pieces of courtesy a musician can show another is to never upstage him, even if he can. This bloke has a lot to learn.
 
Well if the rest of the band was really good and tight, didn't get thrown off by the drummers mistakes. I think it probably did sound alright if you would focus your ears away from the drums like most in the audience do except drummers? They don't know if there is suppose to be a break when there is one or a fill/short solo.

I think the audience do however notice a huge difference in the feel of the music and in their motivation to dance if the drummer is great but they might be consciously unaware of it.

So I don't think we are wasting our efforts by providing a high quality performance, it will help the band to get tighter and it will sound & feel better for the audience even though most in the audience don't zoom in on the drums and notice them consciously.

We are like the defense/midfield players in soccer/football that never tries to score but are great at passing the ball and keep a strong defense. The general public that ain't deeply interested in soccer/football don't remember their name or even see how great their game-understanding & prediction is, all they see is who scores the goal. That doesn't mean they wouldn't understand that a team as a whole is better than another one. They just doesn't bother questioning why that is or at least doesn't zoom in and focus on individual section enough when it might be obvious from someone that's interested in the game.
 
Thinking about it, if the situation arises where someone asks to sit in with the band, what do you guys think if I said, 'how about a drum solo instead? How would that go over? I mean that's what he was doing anyway. Mainly to spare the guys in the band.

I've been faced with that kind of stuff,from time to time,and just as politely as possible,said firmly....no.That manager,used his position as leverage,so you almost couldn't say no.I also agree,that this may become a regular thing with this "drummer" and his buds.

I think that it was also very presumtuous of this guy,to just come up and put you on the spot,instead of discussing this ahead of time.I think that if this guy,even remotely hints,that you either let him play,or forget about the gig.........bye.

I also think,that this drummer,was saying to his pals that he's was better than you,so they told him,why don't yo go up there and play.This was as much orchestrated,as it was spur of the moment.

I for one don't think this guy is anywhere near ,your skills as a drummer Lar,and he proved that my displaying more ego,than skill,common sense and good taste.

I would be prepared the next time,and I would also talk it over with the band.Unless you reallt need the coin,you shouldnt be under any pressure to allow this again.......no matter who asks.The're your drums,not the bars or the managers by proxy.

I got your back Lar.:)

Steve B
 
I think the wider public's perception, understanding, and appreciation of music (or lack of these) is much the same as with any subject field. Art, literature, fine food, music, it's all the same in that you first have to become interested and then become involved to a degree in order to refine your appreciation of the finer details of the subject in question. In any given field, there will only be a minority who actively seek to deepen their understanding. It's only normal, after all, which average Joe has the time and money to deal with every possible cultural activity?

However, I do think that music suffers most out of all the arts. There is a lot of dumbing down, and what's worse, it seems acceptable. I lived in a house-share for a few years and was regularly subject to ridicule, even though "good humoured", just because I listen to jazz. Nice people that I still call my friends, but musically completely ignorant and naïve. How can someone who holds in high esteem the most basic tin-can music subsequently ridicule music performed by some of the worlds finest musicians? I realise that the term "tin can music" doesn't really mean anything. Let's just say that I'm talking about the musical equivalent of eating reheated porridge everyday for the rest of your life, without anything added. To carry on with the culinary parallels, it would be like someone who feeds themselves on a diet of Big Macs laughing at someone who prefers to dine on gourmet cuisine. I'll stop now before my semi-rant becomes incoherent.
 
Anon's questions are disturbing.

Perhaps when people go to bars to drink...all they really want to do is DRINK!

Close Larry. They go to drink and to pick up. A small minority are actual music fans. Most couldn't care less. Agree with others that the audience was into the spectacle of the metal guy.

Also agree with Steve that this was the "I'm better than you" game, where a naive drummer believes that disciplined drummers don't play flash because they can't.

Bands don't take on drummers like you to please audiences - they do it to please themselves. When it comes to drummers it seems audiences either want faux drum machines or someone who gives them a spectacle. It's other musos who want feel, nuance, taste, style and the good stuff you bring to the table. You can console yourself with the knowledge that you make the other band members want to play.
 
Bands don't take on drummers like you to please audiences - they do it to please themselves. When it comes to drummers it seems audiences either want faux drum machines or someone who gives them a spectacle. It's other musos who want feel, nuance, taste, style and the good stuff you bring to the table.

Apparently. I'm convinced that the only thing that offends an audience is screeching feedback lol.

Recently, the trio has added the Who's "The Kids Are Alright" where I get to cut loose a little. I gotta say, drumming in the style of Keith Moon touches something in a crowd. I could finesse the hell out of the drums all night long with nary a notice, but when I play that Who song and I am in octopus (octoarm?) mode, the audience all of a sudden notices and I get huge applause, like the most I ever got from this crowd. Lol. Whatever!

And I think Mr. sit in is convinced that he was right in that he can drum better than me because the audience normally doesn't react to me the way they reacted to him. Hey, good for him. The musicians do the hiring, not the audience. I know where my bread gets buttered. Tomorrow I will split out the recording and put up the song he did, you guys can hear for yourself.
 
Recently, the trio has added the Who's "The Kids Are Alright" where I get to cut loose a little. I gotta say, drumming in the style of Keith Moon touches something in a crowd. I could finesse the hell out of the drums all night long with nary a notice, but when I play that Who song and I am in octopus (octoarm?) mode, the audience all of a sudden notices and I get huge applause, like the most I ever got from this crowd. Lol. Whatever!
.

Hey, good choice, esp. for the drummer. You guys get all those harmonies down in a trio?
And no doubt they applaud even harder when at songs end you kick over your bass drum into the 1st row of club tables.
 
I get the feeling that the sit-in had lots of mates in the audience. In which case the applause was out of excitement that "one of the lads" had gotten up there and rocked out with the band, with not much critical thought to how well he had played.
 
Are you being serious or am am I missing a joke here?

Because if I happened to see Prince take the stage unannounced, he could be playing guitar over the Gregorian monk choir for all I care :)


I'm not taking the piss, I'm just failing to see how this is a bad thing by any means - one of the finest musicians alive blessing a track with his vision.

Im dead serious!

I think someone put up a cell phone clip of it. But we're on the same page. The crowd wants to be entertained and somethings the simple albeit flashy things work well. The name recognition of Prince aside, years ago I was at a small neo soul set where the drummer decided to switch to a Tom heavy groove that sounded more like DC go-go.......the crowd ate it up.
 
Ok, cool!

I'd just be delighted to see the man. Not so much name recognition, as witnessing an icon of music doing his thing.
 
Ok, cool!

I'd just be delighted to see the man. Not so much name recognition, as witnessing an icon of music doing his thing.

Ha someone did put it up!

Around the 0:50 you'll notice the shock. I don't know if or how much you're into Hip Hop, but this was during Q-Tip's set. Not to take away from Larry's experience but after thinking about it a bit, it does match what happened here:

fair warning....its old cell phone quality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwF7qAdH0og
 
Haha, I think that's actually really cool, and from the looks of it Q-tip is really feeling it himself. If I were Tip in that situation, I'd take it as a kind of show of respect / validation from Prince's part.

And for what it's worth, the guitar playing does support the music, although it is clear that the visit is more for the show than for purely musical reasons.

I love hiphop, thanks for the link!
 
Everyday I get more convinced that an average person in the audience is not going to notice if someone made a mistake or misses a break or whatever as long as it's not TOO obvious!!
They are most likely going to critique the singer because first of all, it's the frontman and second because they have no idea about instruments or music structure so it's easier for them to critique if the voice sounds good or bad.
As musicians though, it's much easier to catch another musician's flaws.

So back to your story, I'm pretty sure everyone thought it was awesome even though you know it wasn't.
 
Yeah I think the whole event of getting a 'guest drummer' up to play a song gave the impression he was mean to be really good, the fact he took the chance to just show off his chops would have been a total contrast to what you were doing and they probably thought he got up to do that because you couldn't. You also said he looked very pleased with himself, that would help bullshit the crowd too.

But, more than 1 song of that and the women would be going to the next club, that's for sure. Their bf's and husbands following.

I see drummers all the time who either non-musicians or even guitarists think are amazing. Why? Because they do the crowd pleaser fills. You know the fills, the ones that sound alot harder than they are and blow people away then you can play something technically brilliant and it go completely un-noticed because, nobody cares about ghost notes and well orchestrated rudiments...

Going down all the toms as fast as you can is one of them, another is 2 hands 2 feet repeatedly around the snare, bass drums and toms and possibly the best bullshitter of them all.... someone who plays insanely loud and I mean with no contexts - cymbals aren't balanced with the snare everything is just as loud as they can all the time.
That impresses the hell out of guitarists and non-musicians.

There's nothing wrong with being a hard hitter, aslong as you have everything in context and can play dynamically.
 
Audiences at most clubs don't know anything about music. I was watching the clip of Antonio Sanchez that WhoIsTony put up in the jazz cats thread and he actually talks about some dude going up and playing a bunch of technical nonsense and how the crowd eats it up even though it was terrible. And then he mentions that people love Miley Cyrus, too. So it's all the same thing, right?
 
A relatively short story of mine seems somewhat on topic here. Hopefully it's not deemed irrelevant!

A short while back, I was at the jam I do each week in a local bar, having a great night as always. A new guy comes in and we come to find out that he can play drums! Well, awesome! It's jam night! Get up here, bud!

Part of doing that kind of open jam deal is always supporting the other/new musicians and making sure they feel welcome to play. We basically hounded him till he got up.

The kid (good deal younger than I) could play...

I was amazed at his smooth execution and flawless time. Kid was throwing doubles around the the kit with accuracy that makes you think there's a secret click in his ear. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't have faulted him for stepping on the tunes, either. Perfect time even on the main groove to go along with his by the book jaw dropper fills.

Usually I'm always very thoughtful about making sure not to compare myself to other drummers or go around looking for faults in their playing. I feel it's akin to bad sportsmanship in music... But I have to say, this kid was making me go to those places in my head. I know for sure it would take me quite some time to get down some of those fills with such precision. I was thinking maybe I really have been too wrapped up in these abstract concepts like "feel" and "groove", too focused on the musical conversation and not focused enough on the raw and narrow technicals and chops.

Anyway... Fast forward a few hours and maybe even some extra chops on my part as some kind of idiotic compensation routine for my new insecurities... It's the end of the night. Getting stuff packed up and one of the patrons comes up to offer his "great job man" as folks often do for us. Guy I'd seen around a lot but never talked to.

The aforementioned and predictable "awesome playing tonight, man!" came my way. I'm always gracious even though it always makes me uncomfortable. This time, though, and in quite a timely manner, the guy said a little more, partly prompted by myself.

Dude: "No, man, I mean it... My dad used to play drums when I was growing up and I've seen you play here a lot. You're really awesome."

Me: "Thanks so much, man, I really do appreciate it; did you see that other guy, though?"

Dude: "Other guy?"

Me: "Yea, he was up for a while about an hour ago or so? (points him out) He's a really tight player! Wiped the floor with my sorry lack of skills!"

He looked at the other drummer, then gave me a very quizzical look. As if he thought I was saying something really silly. Then the weird look broke out into a smile as he understood that I wasn't kidding and considered the other guy a better drummer.

Dude: "Yea. He was good. Did his job as a drummer, had cool tricks!... But you know what? I've literally watched you have more impact in the room with a single perfectly placed note than he had with all those crazy fills put together... I think you're on another level of performing all together from him".

I gotta say, that made my month. He nicely slapped me right back to the perspective I should have held all along before I started making comparisons and doubting my path to understanding music in my own way.

The people who have a great time hearing our craft and watching us play don't always understand every facet of our performance. There's always morons out there who don't "get it". But you know what? The opposite is also true.
 
Why did audiences embrace disco, an obvious cheapening of the musical experience?
From the point of view of people that want to dance, it clearly wasn't. Disco and dance music can't be knocked for producing something that people want to listen and dance to. Maybe too many musicians forgot to play in a way that could do that?
 
From the point of view of people that want to dance, it clearly wasn't. Disco and dance music can't be knocked for producing something that people want to listen and dance to. Maybe too many musicians forgot to play in a way that could do that?

LZ, I like a lots of disco tunes but think about what it feels like to experience a good live band, including those that don't play every tune in common time.

I can't speak for others but I've never drawn anything like the energy of a live band from recorded music in a venue. That's what I meant by "cheapening of the musical experience". Sure, disco was great for the, um, social experiences of its fans.

Personally, I don't care for dancing and just like to listen to the music. So discos (and clubs) never offered a satisfying musical experience to me. I'd rather listen to disco tunes in the car or on a home system than sitting around bored out of my brain in a meat market with groovy, but unimaginative, music blaring muddily out of the speakers at ear-splitting volume.
 
You should have just said no, even if it was a manager who asked. Pollyanna is right. The majority of the people in bars are there to dance and try to hook up. They may just find a live band more tollerable then say the thumping of a dance club or the environment of a sports bar. You play in bars. What do you expect? Where else can you go for night out pay little to no money to get in and be "entertained" for an evening. You're there to help sell alcohol, no more , no less. The day you stop helping the owner sell alcohol you will be finished. The number one draw to the establishment is the alcohol and the women. The band is usually the last thing.
 
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