Neil Peart

You guys still don't get it, and thats fine with me. Because you obviously do not want to understand what i'm trying to convey. You still try to put it like i said Peart is bad or Vinnie is better - this is not what its about. I was simply responding to the guy who said that neil re-wrote the book on Polyrythms and Independence, which is absolute nonsense in my opinion. I also NEVER said, that these things are neccesary to do a good drum track/solo. But they CAN make it better. Btw Weckl is not the only Big Chops Guy who laid down simple pop tracks, and again: I never claimed that this would be a bad thing. I dont know what your problem is, really.

So finally: I THINK NEIL PEARTS TECHNICAL SKILLS GET MORE RESPECT THAN THEY SHOULD. Which says nothing about him being a good or bad drummer (or even his songwriting). But since i'm obviously in the wrong place to have an educated discussion about this subject, and am no longer willing to get words put into my mouth, i'll leave you guys to it...

"People always hear what they want to hear."
 
I thought you were leaving it to us after your first or second post. You are now up to 6, so it must be a pretty passionate topic for you. Come on - 8 total posts here and 6 are directed at Peart.

We weren't born yesterday, ace.
 
You guys still don't get it, and thats fine with me. Because you obviously do not want to understand what i'm trying to convey. You still try to put it like i said Peart is bad or Vinnie is better - this is not what its about. I was simply responding to the guy who said that neil re-wrote the book on Polyrythms and Independence, which is absolute nonsense in my opinion. I also NEVER said, that these things are neccesary to do a good drum track/solo. But they CAN make it better. Btw Weckl is not the only Big Chops Guy who laid down simple pop tracks, and again: I never claimed that this would be a bad thing. I dont know what your problem is, really.

So finally: I THINK NEIL PEARTS TECHNICAL SKILLS GET MORE RESPECT THAN THEY SHOULD. Which says nothing about him being a good or bad drummer (or even his songwriting). But since i'm obviously in the wrong place to have an educated discussion about this subject, and am no longer willing to get words put into my mouth, i'll leave you guys to it...

"People always hear what they want to hear."

Hey beatklops...you opened up a can of worms with your initial Peart -bashing post, ie...Vinnie and Dennis can play a Peart solo in their sleep. Among other rather ridiculous rants about one of the greatest and influentual rock drummers of all times. So what do you expect to get back from your fire-breathing unrespectful post(s)?

Clearly, you're in the minority like I said before. So when you make comments like you have, that are just your opinion, you have to expect not-so-favorable reactions from others that don't share this opinion.

I will give you credit though, for having the "stones" to be quite dis-respectful to a VERY accomplished drummer like Neil Peart, right outta the gate. You only had 1 or 2 posts here on DW's forum when you posted on this NP thread. WOW!

Bravery or foolishness?

I, personally, will just have to agree to totally disagree with you here, Mitchi. And please don't try to disapprove of any other legendary, influentual, and accomplished drummers here on DW. It really doesn't help in any way to criticize and disrespect. What's the point?

It only breeds contempt.
 
You are Judging art. As one drummer said is pocasso better than monet.

Exactly!
beatklops said:
He has good technique - at the things hes playing (wich i'll get to later). But any Drummer who practices regulary and the right way can achieve Pearts level of technique in a relatively short amount of time (I'd say about 5 years, if not less, but thats debatable).

"beatklops" what is your criteria for being the super technical drummer you've described?
 
Round 2:
But also - and unfortunately for him, because i bet he didnt start the myth and wouldnt want himself to be considered the best or anything like that - he is one of the most overrated drummers of all time, at least in my opinion. I want to explain this by adressing some of the most popular arguments about his playing:
I think I already beat this one to death in my previous post, but just to recap, I don’t think he’s overrated except by those applying the wrong set of metrics – that’s those on both sides of this.

His technical skills are amazing.
He has good technique - at the things hes playing (wich i'll get to later). But any Drummer who practices regulary and the right way can achieve Pearts level of technique in a relatively short amount of time (I'd say about 5 years, if not less, but thats debatable). Since he doesn't do any advanced independence or polyrythmic stuff it just boils down to pure hand and feet speed. I think his singles are pretty good, his doubles are not that fast though. His feet are ok. Keep in mind this is all IMHO. And dont give me the "Playing over 3 is hard "(regarding one of his foot ostinatos hes playing all the time, RLL) - it's just not.
Your first point is well taken. I’ve thought that myself. But I also think that Mystic Rhythms was a pretty good example of him using independence. I never thought of it as polyrhythmic stuff, though – there’s no 5 against 7 or even 3 against 4 going on there, but there is a lot of layering and things to keep track of. His four limbs are all involved in making that thing happen, and it sounds cool, which is easily the coolest thing about it. A beat like that was uncharted territory, though, and he did have to figure out how to fit and phrase all those little flourishes in there without breaking the flow, so I don’t think you can call him lazy. He did give it a lot of thought.

His single strokes and double strokes are pretty good, but nothing far beyond what you might expect. Those ostinatos are tricky and can certainly help with the independence. For me, I just don’t think they sound that cool. That’s just a personal thing I have – I didn’t like them when Bozzio started doing them either. I thought I’d rather shoot myself than spend 5 minutes on them. But more power to anyone wanting to go there.

2. He's totally creative and comes up with Stuff no one can come up with
It’s not that he comes up with stuff that no one else CAN come up with, it’s that he comes up with stuff that no one else DOES come up with. That’s a really big and important difference.

Well i actually think hes creative. At least he was once in his life when i came up with that solo hes been playing for a gazillion years now. And maybe at the Time this stuff was innovative. But now it isnt anymore.
You’re right about hearing it in the context of time. Having grown up in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s I was hearing Neil in his prime. I’m not nearly as big a fan of his work in more recent years, but I still don’t think he’s overrated.

Again about the solo’s. I agree that the cowbell thing is very very tired. I also grew weary of that 7/8 marimba melody like 100 years ago. I might be one of those guys that takes a popcorn break during his solos. But again, go back to All The World’s A Stage, or even Exit, Stage Left and listen to those solos from when he was young. They were like songs in their own right and were evolving even then. I think they were quite good if primarily from a compositional perspective.

A perfect example would be the a tony royster jr. solo video…[he] plays a great solo but incorporates a lot of advanced stuff like overrideng and/or playing polyrithmic patterns.
Seriously? Tony Royster? If you’re looking to the gospel chops guys, at least pick Aaron Spears or Thomas Pridgen. But I digress, yes these guys are playing chops far beyond what NP was ever capable of playing, and that cool. However, none of them are nearly as organized and compositional as NP. Here’s where it’s important not to distinguish who’s “better” but who’s really giving it some thought with a wider view.

Problem is with most technique monsters like that is that when they decide to tone down the overplaying, they just go for the straight groove (like Weckl playing with Madonna). For them it’s one or the other. The thing about NP is that he was always able to find a middle ground that was complimentary to the music. He didn’t not fight the music by laying back; he didn’t not fight the music by becoming more integrated with it. That was the key, and it had little to do with how blazing his chops were.

Could other drummers have taken this path? Yes, if among other things, they were in bands that could accommodate that (another important consideration), but did they? With few exceptions, no, they didn’t.

Drummers at the level of Royster (just an example, I'm not even mentioning greats like vinnie or dennis chambers) could write and perform a solo like pearts while sleeping. They just dont do it because their vocabulary is much bigger and they like to express their emotions on a much more complex level.
Again, it’s the fact that they don’t have that compositional sense that Peart has. Of course they have the physical chops to do whatever NP does, but they have to wait for NP to compose it before they can demonstrate “how easy it is”, rather than not waiting for NP and composing something equally as compelling.

And sorry to say this, Mr.Peart just simply cant play them [polyrhythmic wanking and blistering double bass], so he doesnt even have the option, wich in itself IMO should clear out any doubts about if he's the best.
Here we go with the “best” again. Be mature enough to ignore those that say NP is the “best” and remember to ask yourself: “best” at what?

And im not even starting about his humongous kit. I'd like to see Mr.Peart play a solo on a 3 Piece kit and see what "great phrases" he comes up with.
NP likes melodic tom parts. Can’t really fault him for that. I play 3 toms on my kit (one up two down) and get the cocked eyebrow from two-tom hipsters from time to time. You know what? Screw people that judge based on kit size. I don’t hear anyone knocking Ed Shaugnessy with his 5 up 2 down double bass, which is pretty close to what NP uses.

And as far as “great phrases” listen to the string of fills on the outtro of The Weapon or the middle section of Red Sector A (which is just very cool and even more original). Hard to play? Some of it is. But really hard to come up with. That’s just inspired stuff there, IMO. Again, easy to knock the technique involved and even easier to miss how clever it was to begin with.

It’s like The Beatles. None of those guys thought of themselves as great players. They knew that they were just good enough to execute the ideas they had, but for them the ideas were the only thing that mattered. Some people call that “dumbing down” but screw them, they don’t get that composing itself is a craft that IMO takes a lot more thought and talent than just learning to wiggle your fingers quickly.

Song writing (or drum part writing) is the hard part. Practicing rudiments and speed are easy. Like you said, anyone can develop those skill in a few years of disciplined practice, but you may never reach the ability to compose something truly original. A lot of players in my experience are so anal retentive about practicing that they can’t find it in them to get inspired to compose or just play for the fun of it.

Sad, really. That’s how we get in these maddening debates about who’s better than who.

But i think its a slap in the face to all those guys that have invested much more time and energy in developing their craft and have deliverd so much more interesting efforts on the instrument…
I might turn that around on you and say it’s a slap in the face to every drummer who puts composition above the strict technique who’s place seems to only belong in a solo aimed at proving superiority over other drummers. It's a high-minded facade hiding the fact that you're the competitive drum jock on the playground trying to knock the fun out of everyone else's play time.

Spend a little more time thinking about what makes a part cool and how to get there, and I think you'll spend a lot less time worrying about who's "overrated", or figuring out acedemic ostinatos or polyrhythms pitting a 7 against a 13 - they just don’t sound that cool.
 
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Thanks for your post Mike. Made me think... Bashing is an accomplished drummer (or musician) is probably never good so i guess you guys are right about the fact that coming here (of all places) and writing what i wrote serves no real purpose. So i'll try to be a bit more positive in future posts on this forum :D Although i dont really see how the number of Posts corellates with what one puts into them...

Anyhow, off to a good start i guess :)

PS: Royster was just the Example because of that Youtube Link thing i explained in an Earlier Post. I like Spears or Pridgen (Sometimes) better...
 
...above the strict technique who’s place seems to only belong in a solo aimed at proving superiority over other drummers.

A non-Peart related point: I really do think that good technique and Vocabulary on the kit can make you a better Drummer. And in my Opinion a good solo expresses Emotions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q50Scn6BSrY
This is my personal favorite drum solo performance and i think this man is not trying to prove superiority over others even if hes incorporating some of the Stuff thats been discussed here before.

Rock on

Mitchi
 
Round 2:

It’s not that he comes up with stuff that no one else CAN come up with, it’s that he comes up with stuff that no one else DOES come up with. That’s a really big and important difference.

..................................................................................

I might turn that around on you and say it’s a slap in the face to every drummer who puts composition above the strict technique who’s place seems to only belong in a solo aimed at proving superiority over other drummers. It's a high-minded facade hiding the fact that you're the competitive drum jock on the playground trying to knock the fun out of everyone else's play time.

MikeM is my new hero.

You nailed it, end of story.
 
Excellent debrief on this subject, good job! mate.


Round 2:
I think I already beat this one to death in my previous post, but just to recap, I don’t think he’s overrated except by those applying the wrong set of metrics – that’s those on both sides of this.


Your first point is well taken. I’ve thought that myself. But I also think that Mystic Rhythms was a pretty good example of him using independence. I never thought of it as polyrhythmic stuff, though – there’s no 5 against 7 or even 3 against 4 going on there, but there is a lot of layering and things to keep track of. His four limbs are all involved in making that thing happen, and it sounds cool, which is easily the coolest thing about it. A beat like that was uncharted territory, though, and he did have to figure out how to fit and phrase all those little flourishes in there without breaking the flow, so I don’t think you can call him lazy. He did give it a lot of thought.

His single strokes and double strokes are pretty good, but nothing far beyond what you might expect. Those ostinatos are tricky and can certainly help with the independence. For me, I just don’t think they sound that cool. That’s just a personal thing I have – I didn’t like them when Bozzio started doing them either. I thought I’d rather shoot myself than spend 5 minutes on them. But more power to anyone wanting to go there.


It’s not that he comes up with stuff that no one else CAN come up with, it’s that he comes up with stuff that no one else DOES come up with. That’s a really big and important difference.

You’re right about hearing it in the context of time. Having grown up in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s I was hearing Neil in his prime. I’m not nearly as big a fan of his work in more recent years, but I still don’t think he’s overrated.

Again about the solo’s. I agree that the cowbell thing is very very tired. I also grew weary of that 7/8 marimba melody like 100 years ago. I might be one of those guys that takes a popcorn break during his solos. But again, go back to All The World’s A Stage, or even Exit, Stage Left and listen to those solos from when he was young. They were like songs in their own right and were evolving even then. I think they were quite good if primarily from a compositional perspective.

Seriously? Tony Royster? If you’re looking to the gospel chops guys, at least pick Aaron Spears or Thomas Pridgen. But I digress, yes these guys are playing chops far beyond what NP was ever capable of playing, and that cool. However, none of them are nearly as organized and compositional as NP. Here’s where it’s important not to distinguish who’s “better” but who’s really giving it some thought with a wider view.

Problem is with most technique monsters like that is that when they decide to tone down the overplaying, they just go for the straight groove (like Weckl playing with Madonna). For them it’s one or the other. The thing about NP is that he was always able to find a middle ground that was complimentary to the music. He didn’t not fight the music by laying back; he didn’t not fight the music by becoming more integrated with it. That was the key, and it had little to do with how blazing his chops were.

Could other drummers have taken this path? Yes, if among other things, they were in bands that could accommodate that (another important consideration), but did they? With few exceptions, no, they didn’t.

Again, it’s the fact that they don’t have that compositional sense that Peart has. Of course they have the physical chops to do whatever NP does, but they have to wait for NP to compose it before they can demonstrate “how easy it is”, rather than not waiting for NP and composing something equally as compelling.

Here we go with the “best” again. Be mature enough to ignore those that say NP is the “best” and remember to ask yourself: “best” at what?

NP likes melodic tom parts. Can’t really fault him for that. I play 3 toms on my kit (one up two down) and get the cocked eyebrow from two-tom hipsters from time to time. You know what? Screw people that judge based on kit size. I don’t hear anyone knocking Ed Shaugnessy with his 5 up 2 down double bass, which is pretty close to what NP uses.

And as far as “great phrases” listen to the string of fills on the outtro of The Weapon or the middle section of Red Sector A (which is just very cool and even more original). Hard to play? Some of it is. But really hard to come up with. That’s just inspired stuff there, IMO. Again, easy to knock the technique involved and even easier to miss how clever it was to begin with.

It’s like The Beatles. None of those guys thought of themselves as great players. They knew that they were just good enough to execute the ideas they had, but for them the ideas were the only thing that mattered. Some people call that “dumbing down” but screw them, they don’t get that composing itself is a craft that IMO takes a lot more thought and talent than just learning to wiggle your fingers quickly.

Song writing (or drum part writing) is the hard part. Practicing rudiments and speed are easy. Like you said, anyone can develop those skill in a few years of disciplined practice, but you may never reach the ability to compose something truly original. A lot of players in my experience are so anal retentive about practicing that they can’t find it in them to get inspired to compose or just play for the fun of it.

Sad, really. That’s how we get in these maddening debates about who’s better than who.


I might turn that around on you and say it’s a slap in the face to every drummer who puts composition above the strict technique who’s place seems to only belong in a solo aimed at proving superiority over other drummers. It's a high-minded facade hiding the fact that you're the competitive drum jock on the playground trying to knock the fun out of everyone else's play time.

Spend a little more time thinking about what makes a part cool and how to get there, and I think you'll spend a lot less time worrying about who's "overrated", or figuring out acedemic ostinatos or polyrhythms pitting a 7 against a 13 - they just don’t sound that cool.
 
I never said hes underrated. I mentioned him as overrated (portnoy that is). But i already said that maybe this is not a description i have the right to use in this context. So i'll ust say that Mr. Portnoy IMHO falls under exactly the same category Mr.Peart falls into, which is why its no surprise to me that he pays him tribute. Although i think Peart actually did a little more for Drumming in general.

I think you dont want to understand me yesdog, i dont say that these guys cant play. My point is about Skill and Vocabulary.

I own each and every dream theater album btw.

Do you really take Youtube comments seriously? Should I then take your poorly substantiated claims seriously? For one example, the innovation people may have been writing about does not deal with his solos. Instead, I believe they meant his drum patterns composed for Rush's songs. Songs like Scars, Territories, Tai Shan, and Xanadu have drum parts that are quite unique and provided mainstream listeners with something exciting and different. I also think you don't quite understand the Mystic Rhythms drum parts. In albums such as Power Windows, Hold Your Fire and Counterparts, there are a lot of notes triggered by pads and a left-sided pedal. There tends to be more going on there than meets the ear.

You better hope Michael Drums doesn't read your rant. He will, quite literally, have a brain aneurism.
 
Of course Neil is wildly overrated but that's just how things are. Once someone - in any field - gains a certain level of attention it snowballs and they become more famous because they are famous. Ditto Bonzo and Ringo and Gadd. Ditto Paris Hilton and Lara Bingle, for that matter.

Over 20 pages here for Neil - many times more than remarkable drummers with great technique and compositional sense like Billy Cobham, Bill Bruford, Chris Culter etc. The attention a drummer receives is only a very rough guide as to his or her prowess.

The Neils, Bonzos, Ringos and Steves of this world are fabulous in their own way, but the attention they receive would have you think they were a hundred times better than their peers. In truth they simply have some qualities that people find a little bit more appealing, or their bands are more popular.

Peart/Bruford, Bonzo/Paice, Ringo/Charlie, Gadd/Jordan - miles of difference in quality? They are all close peers, except maybe Neil and Bill, where the latter is a clearly superior prog drummer in every respect apart from showmanship IMO :) *ducks for cover*

More interesting than rating drummers is working out what the X-factor qualities are that first gained attention (before the celebrity snowball effect exaggerated their reputations).
 
@zumba_zumba

i don't think you're in a position to decide wether i understand or fully comprehend the drumpart to this song. I'm well aware of whats going on there rythmically and whats being played by mr.peart.

And i dont care who's having a brain aneurism (in a sense - of course i care) - i spoke my mind and thats my right. As to my claims being unsubstantiated: even MikeM acknowledges my arguments about the technical aspects of Neils Playing...and thats all my "claims" were about.

Anyhow, Mikes Post remains very good and thoughtful and i'm not gonna whine around here again about Mr.Peart.

All the best
 
except maybe Neil and Bill, where the latter is a clearly superior prog drummer in every respect apart from showmanship IMO :) *ducks for cover*
.

Well, Neil considers Bruford one his hero's, so Neil would probably gladly tell you Bill is a better player.
 
@zumba_zumba

i don't think you're in a position to decide wether i understand or fully comprehend the drumpart to this song. I'm well aware of whats going on there rythmically and whats being played by mr.peart.

And i dont care who's having a brain aneurism (in a sense - of course i care) - i spoke my mind and thats my right. As to my claims being unsubstantiated: even MikeM acknowledges my arguments about the technical aspects of Neils Playing...and thats all my "claims" were about.

Anyhow, Mikes Post remains very good and thoughtful and i'm not gonna whine around here again about Mr.Peart.

All the best

I don't think you are in a position to decide on Neil's credibility, technical aspects or otherwise. I am however in a position to respond to your post which is my right as a forum member. You seem to come across with a little arrogance which makes it hard to keep responses to you civil. So keep your cool, we are two people behind computers far away from each other having a little argument.

The brain aneurysm thing was about a die-hard forum member that usually responds to posts like yours. I'm shocked he hasn't yet. It was kind of a joke but I guess taking fire from others can make one defensive. All the best to you too.
 
A non-Peart related point: I really do think that good technique and Vocabulary on the kit can make you a better Drummer. And in my Opinion a good solo expresses Emotions.
I can't disagree with that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q50Scn6BSrY
This is my personal favorite drum solo performance and i think this man is not trying to prove superiority over others even if hes incorporating some of the Stuff thats been discussed here before.
Joel Rosenblatt is an amazing drummer for sure. I don't want to take anything away from him here, but he is playing a form where players are featured, as in step up and show us your chops, which is a little different than making your crazy playing working in a "song" context. But that's why people like that kind of music; so they can watch far-out players like that showing off everything they've got.

Anyway, Neil Peart was my favorite drummer when I first started out playing and I did think he was the "best", (so I get where new drummer get that) but he was just a gateway to a lot of other really great drummers for me. So like you, I began to question how good NP really was. His technique is nothing compared to Gadd or Greb or any number of other guys. BUT, I came back to the realization that it wasn't so much about how good his chops were, but how good his compositions were. Of course, not everyone else is as impressed with his compositional style as I am so we're free to disagree on that stuff.

Of course Neil is wildly overrated but that's just how things are. Once someone - in any field - gains a certain level of attention it snowballs and they become more famous because they are famous...

More interesting than rating drummers is working out what the X-factor qualities are that first gained attention (before the celebrity snowball effect exaggerated their reputations).

Hi Polly - things slowing down on the Kenny G thread, are they?

That's an interesting point - trying to figure out the X-factor. I know you're not much of a NP fan, so I'll assume your role here is pure harassment ;)
 
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I haven't seen Rush since '86 but seeing that they're coming here this summer, I'm thinking about going to see them. Tickets go on sale next weekend. Of course, I thought that last two (or three) times they came around and always found other things I'd rather be doing. It would be cool to see them play all of Moving Pictures! That was the first concert I ever went to (Rush Moving Pictures tour).
 
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