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  #41  
Old 04-15-2012, 08:22 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Wow. And to think they were raw and cutting edge in 1975 ;)
I dont understand? Sorry
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  #42  
Old 04-16-2012, 03:05 AM
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Default Re: Rawness

No takers on Rage Against the Machine huh?

Look up their first album and take a listen. Its not just heavy metal.
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  #43  
Old 04-16-2012, 09:21 AM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Originally Posted by Gvdadrummasum View Post
if you dig this you should check out stuff from their first album when they were totally raw
True enough Gvda - you're the one who corrupted me with The Black Keys ... thank you :)


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Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
On a more tamed down approach, but still very "raw" in terms of vibes and sounds, there's Black Dub, a band produced and featuring Daniel Lanois :)

I Believe In You http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_0zrd2u3uk
Henri, that's exactly what I'm talking about. We usually associate "raw" with distorted guitars but ...


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Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
... And all the best jazz had it.
That's what I like most about jazz - the sounds served up without processing. Bop solos almost always go too long for me but I LOVE the sound of jazz drummers, big basses, piano and sax.

And I definitely think the best fusion is raw ... MO, Weather Report, Lifetime ... slick fusion (Carlton, Ritenour, Sanborn) bores me although it makes good background music.


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Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
I can appreciate the perfection but I don't usually get a visceral response to it. There are exceptions, like Steely Dan, etc., but in general, I prefer things a little looser.
Agree with PFOG - nicely stated. I love Steelies, Floyd, Crimson & Zappa but they are exceptions.


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Originally Posted by Pocket-full-of-gold View Post
As Jimmy Page would say, "tight.....but loose."
Good quote and an idea worth digging into in this thread. First thought is improvising between the changes ... getting all the most important accents together but otherwise not being too fussy.

It's like the old showbiz saying (source?) to the effect of - get the start and the finish right and the middle is nobody's business.


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Originally Posted by jafo View Post
I've never heard of the Black Keys until this thread. I like thier music, but I think the music industry is so massive and wide spread now, alot of good bands get lost in the haystack.
True. I only learned of them through DW too. Not mad on all their stuff but I Believe in You is brilliant.


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Originally Posted by HipshotPercussion View Post
When I realized my own professional work "suffered" from a surplus of polish and that I couldn't break that pattern (and, believe me, I tried), I quit.
Interesting, kind of opposite to 99% of the drumming world :) So you internally couldn't break from being slick or were you pigeon-holed and those were the only gigs you could get at the time?

I equate slickness with formality and looseness with casualness. I've always been a shorts and t-shirt gal :)


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Originally Posted by Toolate View Post
No takers on Rage Against the Machine huh?
Nah, sorry. I'm over heavy music for the most part. RATM are great - one of the three metal bands I like (love Tool and I don't mind Opeth), but I can only take them one song per sitting before I get "heavied out".
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  #44  
Old 04-16-2012, 03:37 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
Yeah, I love music raw, too. The White Stripes have brought that back into music over the past 10 years or so. And all the best jazz had it.

I can appreciate the perfection but I don't usually get a visceral response to it. There are exceptions, like Steely Dan, etc., but in general, I prefer things a little looser.
I'll second that. The White Stripes are/were something to behold. As was Meg :)
I just think less is more always. And click tracks, and pitch correct, this correct and that correct, etc. and all the other gizmos are so evident in the recording process today...stinks. Not that I necessarily enjoy T Bone Burnett's Americana hokey stuff either... I like recordings underproduced and drumming underplayed.
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  #45  
Old 04-16-2012, 04:05 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Originally Posted by larryz View Post
I like recordings underproduced and drumming underplayed.
Haha I relate. I don't know why - maybe listening to too much prog and fusion and hearing too much glossy new pop on the radio. Once you get over the wow factor it can feel a bit oppressive - all that musical rushing around and frantic playing and fussy studio tweaking.

Some urgency and tweaking is cool, but there comes a point where the magic can get lost through trying too hard. To my ears, anyway.
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  #46  
Old 04-16-2012, 05:02 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

I believe it sort of brings a sense of connection.

Sound is visceral, it just says so much in an instant... you feel right away when the sound is not right on something... for example, if you listen to music by Amy Winehouse you get a sense of what a world of sounds it belongs with... or say, Fiona Apple... or Slipknot.

I believe that as artists come along that bring new (or re-bring) trends, sound comes along with it as a natural reaction.

The 80's was about being big, being the top dog... being happy, having the look, strutting your stuff and breaking away from the past... that brought a world of sounds, that were almost "a look".

The 90's was all about honesty, sincerity, being real, not being a showoff... it was also about crossing boundaries and experimenting, that brought other worlds of sound.

This last decade was about technology... about people owning music... artists are facing that there is not that big corporate music industry to aim for (or be angry at) anymore...... popular music and music videos are not the center of the universe anymore... so it's about expression, about craft... about being unique and passionate WITHOUT CYNICISM... someone can play tracks and record songs on their phone...so now, it's about embracing "HISTORIC" sounds... what was old and outdated 20 years ago, is now historic... there is no need for real connection anymore, sounds have become "historic", so artists like Amy Winehouse, Adele, The Killers, White Stripes, Black Eyed Peas, Radiohead and even Contemporary rock bands share this mashed up world of sounds and influences... which comes together with technology...

Being Raw is part of that ever evolving landscape.
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  #47  
Old 04-16-2012, 05:12 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

yes.

rawness is where it's at.

rawness is like meat; some people prefer it more raw than others but very few
eat it totally raw.
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  #48  
Old 04-16-2012, 05:28 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

My take on what's up with rawness is exemplified by the Grateful Dead. I love their early raw stuff. Later in life they got hung up on virtuosity over feel. The perception was that the crowd didn't want to hear mistakes so they stopped taking chances musically. They still had some free flowing improv jams all throughout their career but nothing like the early days when they weren't afraid to take chances.
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  #49  
Old 04-16-2012, 05:51 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Haha I relate. I don't know why - maybe listening to too much prog and fusion and hearing too much glossy new pop on the radio. Once you get over the wow factor it can feel a bit oppressive - all that musical rushing around and frantic playing and fussy studio tweaking.

Some urgency and tweaking is cool, but there comes a point where the magic can get lost through trying too hard. To my ears, anyway.
Are you familiar with Dawes?...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtxKFpJ39HM

It's not exactly "raw", but the playing is simple and well-executed. It's all about the song, not the playing.
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  #50  
Old 04-16-2012, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Originally Posted by Spectron View Post
yes.

rawness is where it's at.

rawness is like meat; some people prefer it more raw than others but very few
eat it totally raw.
=( I'm a vegetarian. Even so, I don't even kill my music before consumption. Raw is where it's at.
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  #51  
Old 04-17-2012, 12:48 AM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Originally Posted by EricF View Post
Are you familiar with Dawes?...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtxKFpJ39HM

It's not exactly "raw", but the playing is simple and well-executed. It's all about the song, not the playing.
Thanks Eric, but I must have been giving the wrong impression - I am very happy for players to do cool things ... if the song needs that. Playing your bum off is fine, but overplaying in a song that would be better served by a less ornate part is just a pose IMO and is not interesting to me.


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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
=( I'm a vegetarian. Even so, I don't even kill my music before consumption. Raw is where it's at.
I'm a near-veggo - one serve of meal a week. Raw veggies are great (but not cabbage :)
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  #52  
Old 04-17-2012, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Thanks Eric, but I must have been giving the wrong impression - I am very happy for players to do cool things ... if the song needs that. Playing your bum off is fine, but overplaying in a song that would be better served by a less ornate part is just a pose IMO and is not interesting to me.
I get it, and completely agree. It's all about serving the song appropriately, which (IMO) is a big part of being a skilled musician. There definintely are times where busy/complex/powerful is appropriate.

My example with the Dawes song was one where busy instruments or heavy production tricks would only distract from what is a beautifully simple song.
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  #53  
Old 04-19-2012, 07:16 AM
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Default Re: Rawness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guillermo View Post
I believe it sort of brings a sense of connection.

Sound is visceral, it just says so much in an instant... you feel right away when the sound is not right on something... for example, if you listen to music by Amy Winehouse you get a sense of what a world of sounds it belongs with... or say, Fiona Apple... or Slipknot.

I believe that as artists come along that bring new (or re-bring) trends, sound comes along with it as a natural reaction.

The 80's was about being big, being the top dog... being happy, having the look, strutting your stuff and breaking away from the past... that brought a world of sounds, that were almost "a look".

The 90's was all about honesty, sincerity, being real, not being a showoff... it was also about crossing boundaries and experimenting, that brought other worlds of sound.

This last decade was about technology... about people owning music... artists are facing that there is not that big corporate music industry to aim for (or be angry at) anymore...... popular music and music videos are not the center of the universe anymore... so it's about expression, about craft... about being unique and passionate WITHOUT CYNICISM... someone can play tracks and record songs on their phone...so now, it's about embracing "HISTORIC" sounds... what was old and outdated 20 years ago, is now historic... there is no need for real connection anymore, sounds have become "historic", so artists like Amy Winehouse, Adele, The Killers, White Stripes, Black Eyed Peas, Radiohead and even Contemporary rock bands share this mashed up world of sounds and influences... which comes together with technology...

Being Raw is part of that ever evolving landscape.
thank you for putting the last 3 decades into perspective. i think you've nailed it. kudos.
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  #54  
Old 04-21-2012, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Interesting, kind of opposite to 99% of the drumming world :) So you internally couldn't break from being slick or were you pigeon-holed and those were the only gigs you could get at the time?
Actually, I was talking about my writing, not my drumming, and in terms of that my answer to your question would be "Both."

As an artist/writer/producer, I couldn't keep myself from automatically being slick/facile because I'd done it for so long and couldn't shake the pattern. And I was being hired precisely because I was so "professional."

It was no fun staying within the lines, even though I was the guy who'd created the lines, so I stopped writing and returned to music. The more chaos/craziness I could muster, the better. There's a groove to what I do, but it's more along the lines of the Brubeck-Morello relationship than a standard backseat-keep-it-going kind of thing. I play regularly now with a keyboardist who's into trading 8s and 16s with me and comping my solos just the way I comp his.

Feels very good to be free, and our audience really digs it.

Now if I could just get myself to write a TV series that way....
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  #55  
Old 04-22-2012, 02:23 AM
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Default Re: Rawness

Hipshot, it sounds like you've gone from Welcome to the Machine to Solsbury Hill :)

So I went from day to day
Tho' my life was in a rut
"Till I thought of what I'd say
Which connection I should cut
I was feeling part of the scenery
I walked right out of the machinery
My heart going boom boom boom
"Hey" he said "Grab your things
I've come to take you home.


I think we as drummers can get so caught up in the mechanical challenges we can underestimate the importance of our own emotions in the equation. Something else gets lost with our creative innocence.
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  #56  
Old 04-22-2012, 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
I think we as drummers can get so caught up in the mechanical challenges we can underestimate the importance of our own emotions in the equation. Something else gets lost with our creative innocence.
I find this wonderfully insightful. But would add that in the world I inhabit it's not just drummers. It's pretty much everyone, one way or another.

Thanks for being so brilliant, Polly.
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  #57  
Old 04-22-2012, 03:01 AM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Originally Posted by HipshotPercussion View Post
I find this wonderfully insightful. But would add that in the world I inhabit it's not just drummers. It's pretty much everyone, one way or another.

Thanks for being so brilliant, Polly.
Thanks Hipshot, far too kind but I take what I can get :) Yep, it's universal for sure.

I was thinking of how people often say that education creates a barrier between children and the way they experience the world. Eons ago I read about how a child will see a bird and have an unfettered experience of what the bird is. Then a well meaning parent will come along and say 'That's a bird" and suddenly the child isn't experiencing the reality of the bird but is trying to attach its form to an abstraction (ie. a word).

I see a TON of those losses in myself and I'm always struggling to get more deeply into the reality of playing (or anything else I do) without all the filters.

Seems that the tools we need to survive in the world are almost antithetical to clear eyed innocence, or at least take us away from deeper connections. Maybe that's why so many inspiring artists were flakes who could barely tie their shoelaces? :)

The other angle that was coming to mind was the Ringo / Meg debate - people are always saying that X drummer would have been better in the Beatles / White Stripes / Stones etc. But they don't think of how those other drummers would have felt if they were locked away with Paul and John controlling them for weeks and months on end.

Chemistry is a complex thing and slick is definitely not always more suitable. I wonder to what extent we can recapture that innocence - how much of the genie it's possible to get back into the bottle ...
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  #58  
Old 04-22-2012, 04:27 AM
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Default Re: Rawness

Good raw



Bad raw




Good slick



Bad slick



:)
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Old 04-22-2012, 05:51 AM
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Finally! This is the thread for me! :) haha this is the music i love. The Black Keys are phenomenal, I'm going to see them in May with another one of my favorite bands, Arctic Monkeys. The have slightly moved away from the raw, energetic genre and into a more Queens of the Stone Age "stoner rock" type deal which i dont mind because their musics moving forward and maturing. They have some modern classics though, some of my favorites:

The View From The Afternoon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeQAZ...feature=relmfu

Teddy Picker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A2XB...feature=relmfu

Then there are the Libertines, who are about as raw as it gets for me haha.

Don't Look Back Into the Sun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLYsI...B2DF0D47500D63

Up The Bracket
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0u_g6...feature=relmfu

Hope you enjoy :)

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Toolate, dont worry, i didn't ignore your posts haha i love Rage. Tom Morello is a guitar God
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  #60  
Old 04-22-2012, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: Rawness

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Good raw = Yummy!



Bad raw = Yuk!!!




Good slick = Yummy!



Bad slick = Yummy !!!



:)
There's something quite appealling about the bad slick meal, I'll eat that for sure, no shame, lol :)
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  #62  
Old 04-22-2012, 03:04 PM
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Good raw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsnIdx8JSBY Jack's making the most of it though, as for Meg... raw and sexy, winning combination :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isCg_7udI_0 Very good, you can't miss that bass drum, lol, 26" or 28" ???

Bad raw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj7pDNDuoJ0 Oh my, ho my ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y5cqcR3Bd0 It's bad enough, but good use of the monitor and the smoking effect :)

Good slick
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj54dNhJjgg Totally agree, it's right up my street :))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnpyCEUESEw Brilliant intro... and then Jaco, nice... although that during Brecker's solo it's not that slick, there's some raw energy there :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvi_wJtmZs Superb singer!!! ...I always liked that song for that, using the vocal as an instrument :)

Bad Slick (the McDonalds of the music world)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHp2KgyQUFk Agreed, hence the nature and content of the clip to get more view of this video :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJthZst5tQ&ob=av2e Sorry, I lasted 20 seconds...
These are very good exemples Polly, and from time to time, I'll have a Mc Donald's meal :)) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ3ZM8FDBlg
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  #63  
Old 04-22-2012, 04:03 PM
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These are very good exemples Polly, and from time to time, I'll have a Mc Donald's meal :)) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ3ZM8FDBlg
I can see why you like it, Henry, but I don't :)

I quite liked that big Adele hit but I find it hard to get into the plastic stuff. I'd like to be more open minded but the fact is I'm not haha

This band is about as modern as I get: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiGh6mIMVEs
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Old 04-22-2012, 05:05 PM
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This band is about as modern as I get: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiGh6mIMVEs
I tried to get into this kind of sound while I was writing THE SILVER SURFER TV series. Thought it would put me in a "more cosmic place." Couldn't stand all the soft, lovey stuff though and ended up spending a year and a half writing to pre-THE WALL Pink Floyd. The energy and anger of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON really works for me.

We did end up with a strange and to me terrific (even though it was overblown as hell) pseudo-operatic theme song:

http://is.gd/sL76qJ

Couldn't play any drums on it, however. Except for the voices, the whole thing was synthed.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:27 PM
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I quite liked that big Adele hit but I find it hard to get into the plastic stuff. I'd like to be more open minded but the fact is I'm not haha
Agreed about Adele... But, forget the superficial, the image, the look, the clip... there's some good stuff out there despite the "fashion" elements and top 50 style of music, don't get me wrong, I'm not a "Chart music" fan, but there's some exeptions :)

I quite like these songs as far as slick females pop/rock tunes goes :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmiw7b5HoO4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsTLQ6JKedk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzfyCuPVpCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfWOT5JaRY&feature=fvst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNLQp...eature=related

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
This band is about as modern as I get: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiGh6mIMVEs
Yes, you posted other songs of them a while back, I like this band a lot, and that's because of you :))
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Old 04-23-2012, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by HipshotPercussion View Post
I tried to get into this kind of sound while I was writing THE SILVER SURFER TV series. Thought it would put me in a "more cosmic place." Couldn't stand all the soft, lovey stuff though and ended up spending a year and a half writing to pre-THE WALL Pink Floyd. The energy and anger of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON really works for me.

We did end up with a strange and to me terrific (even though it was overblown as hell) pseudo-operatic theme song:

http://is.gd/sL76qJ

Couldn't play any drums on it, however. Except for the voices, the whole thing was synthed.
That was all rather Wagnerian (I'm guessing with my antlike knowledge of classical). I can't imagine chillout helping you write music like that - unless it irritated you enough ... :)

Doing film music must be amazing, such a creative field.


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Originally Posted by Mad About Drums View Post
Agreed about Adele... But, forget the superficial, the image, the look, the clip... there's some good stuff out there despite the "fashion" elements and top 50 style of music, don't get me wrong, I'm not a "Chart music" fan, but there's some exeptions :)

I quite like these songs as far as slick females pop/rock tunes goes :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmiw7b5HoO4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsTLQ6JKedk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzfyCuPVpCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSfWOT5JaRY&feature=fvst

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNLQp...eature=related
Norah Jones - quite like her music without being wild about her. But if she had Dianne Krall's voice ...
Alicia Keys - I've heard worse but I'm generally not keen on plastic ballad ham vocals :)
Anastacia - love her voice, hate her lyrics, not thrilled about her music or production
Clare Maguire - yet another generic melisma-afflicted vocalist.
Stevie Nicks - I like her in FM but is overproduced. This song would sound awesome with a grittier production.

I prefer Fiona Apple to these chickadees (apart from Steve with FM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgEu12FjeCo

Henri, looking at your above suggestions, as far as I can tell the only reason to make those songs slick is commercial. I think every one of those tunes would sound better with less electronics - be it reverb, gating, compression, programmed parts, extra musos. Take Deep Forest or Madison Avenue or Eno - they need electronics. These gals only need the gloss to pay for their own little Caribbean island. Their music needs more dirt.

How the hell can you sing about love and relationships and make it glossy with a straight face? How much romanticism do we need to be sold before we find out the truth - relationships at their best are messy and, at their worst, brutal. The glossiness, to me, reflects a cynical detachment from the reality, like advertising. I could go into a deeper conspiracy about us being encouraged to beget and raise more productive units to feed to the machine but I won't :)

If I ruled the world all female singers would be gritty with raw, gutsy backing and never, ever engage in overproduced dance tunes and simpering ballads showing how sexily sensitive they are (when they aren't hurling vases at their handlers backstage for mistakenly choosing gerberas instead of chrysanthemums)

OMG with this post think I've just made my old fartiness official!
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Old 04-23-2012, 01:59 AM
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I prefer Fiona Apple to these chickadees (apart from Steve with FM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgEu12FjeCo
I liked the song, but you choosed a live version :) There's plenty of "sexy" shots of Fiona in the offical Video, enough to make the males viewer to watch the entire clip, not there's anything wrong with it, it's actually well made and has an arty feel about it :)

The Anastacia clip is not that glossy (as far as the story goes), the music on the other hand it's a bit overproduced, I agree :)

In all fairness, any of the gals I've mentioned, sounds much rawer and more rocky live on stage, and often, the silly make-up and bubble gum vibes of the video clips are gone, is live music, with real musicians, although that sometimes, the show could also be over the top, as in the latest concert from Christina Aguilera live down under DVD, in comparison to the live in London 10 years ago, that one was rocking!!

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Henri, looking at your above suggestions, as far as I can tell the only reason to make those songs slick is commercial. I think every one of those tunes would sound better with less electronics - be it reverb, gating, compression, programmed parts, extra musos. Take Deep Forest or Madison Avenue or Eno - they need electronics. These gals only need the gloss to pay for their own little Caribbean island. Their music needs more dirt.
Yes, as far as recordings is concerned, I agree, but as I mentioned above, some artists are already less "slicky" on stage, and there's a lot of female artists/bands that's not that much overproduced, Sheryll Crow, Alanis Morissette, Chrissie Hynde (Pretenders) or Annie Lennox, just to name a few, and they're as slick and as overproduced than the males counterpart in the music business :)

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How the hell can you sing about love and relationships and make it glossy with a straight face? How much romanticism do we need to be sold before we find out the truth - relationships at their best are messy and, at their worst, brutal. The glossiness, to me, reflects a cynical detachment from the reality, like advertising. I could go into a deeper conspiracy about us being encouraged to beget and raise more productive units to feed to the machine but I won't :)
I agree totally with you there, however, you have to sell the "product" isn't it? Would it sell as well with a truefull image or clip? It could be very controversial, no? ...Yep, it's advertising alright...

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If I ruled the world all female singers would be gritty with raw, gutsy backing and never, ever engage in overproduced dance tunes and simpering ballads showing how sexily sensitive they are (when they aren't hurling vases at their handlers backstage for mistakenly choosing gerberas instead of chrysanthemums)
Ha! I wish I could rule the world regarding musical issue sometimes, but it wouldn't be fair, isn't it? I'll make all female singers sounding like Rebecca Black :))

But I understand what you mean, more gritty with raw and spirited performances and recordings wouldn't go amiss :)

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OMG with this post think I've just made my old fartiness official!
LOL...
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Old 04-23-2012, 02:02 AM
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Polly,

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I prefer Fiona Apple to these chickadees (apart from Steve with FM): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgEu12FjeCo
Can't remember the title, but somewhere in a box I've got a version of a Fiona Apple CD that she put out herself when her record company refused to. Later, they released their re-mixed version. But the original - the "raw" one - man!

Quote:
That was all rather Wagnerian (I'm guessing with my antlike knowledge of classical). I can't imagine chillout helping you write music like that - unless it irritated you enough ... :)

Doing film music must be amazing, such a creative field.
I wasn't writing the music, I wrote all the scripts for the show. The music was done by the boss's brother-in-law (or best friend, or something...seriously).
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:16 AM
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I liked the song, but you choosed a live version :) There's plenty of "sexy" shots of Fiona in the offical Video, enough to make the males viewer to watch the entire clip, not there's anything wrong with it, it's actually well made and has an arty feel about it :)
Interestingly the studio version is more raw and gutsy than live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFOzayDpWoI&ob=av2e


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Can't remember the title, but somewhere in a box I've got a version of a Fiona Apple CD that she put out herself when her record company refused to. Later, they released their re-mixed version. But the original - the "raw" one - man!
Sounds logical, Hip. You can tell that her musical instincts are not glossy, like many others.


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The Anastacia clip is not that glossy (as far as the story goes), the music on the other hand it's a bit overproduced, I agree :)
Always. I guess it means she makes squillions but has to live without my approval. It must be very hard for her :)


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I agree totally with you there, however, you have to sell the "product" isn't it? Would it sell as well with a truefull image or clip? It could be very controversial, no? ...Yep, it's advertising alright...
Yes, make the mix hot so it's at least as loud as everything else. Reduce dynamics because the subtleties get missed over car noise or talk. Short punchy message with lots of repetition. Reduce overheads with automation. Clean up the rest with Pro Tools and add lots and lots of shine.

I preferred it when the biz was less canny. The suits worked it all out and took over, operating with the kind of increasing rationalist control found in the corporate world generally.

McMusic.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:32 AM
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This is profoundly raw music from the heart. When Music is Music...Howlin' Wolf is Blues.

Howlin' Wolf - 1966 - How Many More Years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2Iw5...endscreen&NR=1

Howlin' Wolf - Evil

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rajm...eature=related
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Old 04-23-2012, 08:33 AM
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These days I find myself being attracted to more raw sounding music.

Not sure if it's an ageing thing or if raw sounds seem fresh given that most modern music is ultra slick.

Do you think rawness will make a comeback or will it be increasingly seen as retrograde, something from which to progress?

I can't offer an opinion, hence the question :)
I go through phases where I like music with more rawness, then music with more finesse, etc.

I don't know if rawness was ever out of fashion. Even traditionally raw music like country can be slickified and people will always want a less processed, more basic sound from their music a lot of the time. Some of the most popular songs and albums have been raw sounding.

Surprised, though. You have always seemed like such a smooth player.
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Old 04-23-2012, 10:59 AM
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I go through phases where I like music with more rawness, then music with more finesse, etc.

I don't know if rawness was ever out of fashion. Even traditionally raw music like country can be slickified and people will always want a less processed, more basic sound from their music a lot of the time. Some of the most popular songs and albums have been raw sounding.

Surprised, though. You have always seemed like such a smooth player.
Good point, DMC. I go through phases too. I'm still very keen on Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, Cinematic Orchestra etc. But another side of me laps up The White Stripes and other no-frills bands. The music just feels good.

I wish the pop and country people wouldn't "slickify" (good word :) their simple music that's best served raw IMO. It's like they're trying to make up for other lacks. It would be better if they embraced their goofyness instead of trying to mask it with production gloss.

Guess they've got to pay the rent - or buy gold plated pools - and people's ears are increasingly being trained to slick sounds, somewhat countered by music on the net.

I never think of myself as a smooth player. I find my playing a bit ploddy and wobbly and I'm grateful that people tend to listen to the overall song rather than hone in on the drummer. If someone says, "Hey, the drums are off" I can claim intentional rawness :)

How do you see your own playing in terms of raw / slick? There was some very cool raw drumming by you in your busking video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3MWZH1u8R4
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Old 04-23-2012, 07:15 PM
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Steve Albini!1,000 Hurts!

"Kill her fucking kill her..."

Yeah his drummer is awesome. The whole band and productions is a rebellion against things that are overproduced!

I love what Albini did with Neurosis!

He also did something with Polly Jean Harvey....
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Old 04-24-2012, 12:22 AM
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How do you see your own playing in terms of raw / slick? There was some very cool raw drumming by you in your busking video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3MWZH1u8R4
I can't tell you how DMC sees himself as a raw or slick player, but I can tell you that I listened to Martin's playing on his YT channel and found this little gem, it's not rock'n'roll... but girl ...it's deliciously raw, I love that song :-))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRh0M...bS7oP6rwwIc%3D

@ DMC, why didn't you upload this wonderful song in the "Your Playing" section? I checked and I couldn't find it :)

This song is absolutely brilliant, and your playing is very inspiring, I must say, I'm impressed by your drumming, raw, yes, but so full of feel, I genuinely loved it :))
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:34 PM
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I can't tell you how DMC sees himself as a raw or slick player, but I can tell you that I listened to Martin's playing on his YT channel and found this little gem, it's not rock'n'roll... but girl ...it's deliciously raw, I love that song :-))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRh0M...bS7oP6rwwIc%3D

@ DMC, why didn't you upload this wonderful song in the "Your Playing" section? I checked and I couldn't find it :)

This song is absolutely brilliant, and your playing is very inspiring, I must say, I'm impressed by your drumming, raw, yes, but so full of feel, I genuinely loved it :))
Wow, hey, thanks I am truly humbled. I will upload it there. Sometimes, you never know how good something is until someone else puts it in perspective. I have more stuff like that at www.bandmix.com/spiritdrummer
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Old 04-24-2012, 08:42 PM
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Good point, DMC. I go through phases too. I'm still very keen on Steely Dan, Pink Floyd, Cinematic Orchestra etc. But another side of me laps up The White Stripes and other no-frills bands. The music just feels good.

I wish the pop and country people wouldn't "slickify" (good word :) their simple music that's best served raw IMO. It's like they're trying to make up for other lacks. It would be better if they embraced their goofyness instead of trying to mask it with production gloss.

Guess they've got to pay the rent - or buy gold plated pools - and people's ears are increasingly being trained to slick sounds, somewhat countered bymusic on the net.

I never think of myself as a smooth player. I find my playing a bit ploddy and wobbly and I'm grateful that people tend to listen to the overall song rather than hone in on the drummer. If someone says, "Hey, the drums are off" I can claim intentional rawness :)

How do you see your own playing in terms of raw / slick? There was some very cool raw drumming by you in your busking video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3MWZH1u8R4
I think people will make raw music slick and slick music raw as part of the natural tendency to experiment and find new markets for their music.

I really dig drummers who can play with finesse and rawness at the same time. Bobby Jarzombek comes to mind. Very smooth, but also also very rough-edged and even violent in his playing.
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Old 04-24-2012, 10:39 PM
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I can't tell you how DMC sees himself as a raw or slick player, but I can tell you that I listened to Martin's playing on his YT channel and found this little gem, it's not rock'n'roll... but girl ...it's deliciously raw, I love that song :-))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRh0M...bS7oP6rwwIc%3D

@ DMC, why didn't you upload this wonderful song in the "Your Playing" section? I checked and I couldn't find it :)

This song is absolutely brilliant, and your playing is very inspiring, I must say, I'm impressed by your drumming, raw, yes, but so full of feel, I genuinely loved it :))
oh

my

god.

that's so real.

ditto.
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Old 04-25-2012, 04:19 AM
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I can't tell you how DMC sees himself as a raw or slick player, but I can tell you that I listened to Martin's playing on his YT channel and found this little gem, it's not rock'n'roll... but girl ...it's deliciously raw, I love that song :-))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRh0M...bS7oP6rwwIc%3D
Agree Henri, it's quality. Only criticism is I think it deserved a more conclusive ending than a fade out.

Martin plays lots of exotic stuff with wide ranging influences - jazz, rock, gypsy, Jewish, Indian ... and the music always has some rawness, that tasty, organic feel.
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Old 04-25-2012, 08:42 PM
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Agree Henri, it's quality. Only criticism is I think it deserved a more conclusive ending than a fade out.

Martin plays lots of exotic stuff with wide ranging influences - jazz, rock, gypsy, Jewish, Indian ... and the music always has some rawness, that tasty, organic feel.
I am humbled ... thank you.
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Old 04-25-2012, 10:12 PM
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Wow, hey, thanks I am truly humbled. I will upload it there. Sometimes, you never know how good something is until someone else puts it in perspective. I have more stuff like that at www.bandmix.com/spiritdrummer
Wow, DMC, I checked your spiritdrummer's page, your drumming is simply astonishing, and I very much like this music, thanks for the links, you've got yourself a new fan, lol.

Red Dragon reminds me of Steeleye Span, do you know them?
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