DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM   

Go Back   DRUMMERWORLD OFFICIAL DISCUSSION FORUM > General Discussion

General Discussion General discussion forum for all drum related topics. Use this forum to exchange ideas and information with your fellow drummers.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 02-25-2010, 04:08 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Getting together with your bassist

After practice tonight our singer and I listened to a few of the recordings. He said that at one stage he was wondering why I seemed to be dragging and noticed that I was ok but our bassist was sitting way on top of the beat.

I'm thinking of asking him to have a two-person rehearsal and jam. Time perception is an odd thing. Some people prefer laying back in the pocket and others like things to drive forward - they want the excitement. It's taste, but if drums and bass feel the beat differently they need work out what's what and meet somewhere in the middle.

I've not done this with any of my bassists before, apart from the occasional fool around at rehearsal. I played with the same bassist throughout the 80s and early 90s so we knew each other's playing inside out anyway so it's not my usual modus operandi. I'd like more of the clarity and punch that tight-knit rhythm sections bring to a band.

Does anyone here have get-togethers with their bassist? If so, how do you find it?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-25-2010, 04:41 PM
larryace's Avatar
larryace larryace is offline
"Uncle Larry"
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: In beautiful Bucks County, PA
Posts: 21,262
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Sticky wicket. Who's to say which intrepetation is "correct". If he is on top and you're laying back, who adjusts? (this assumes that the players have enough of a command to shift from "on top" to "on it" to "laying back") I have this issue in my favorite band, the one that doesn't gig much. The bass players time is not very even, he's just not that good of a player, so I just accept it warts and all. It's really not THAT bad, but my bat senses pick up every micro timing thing, whoever does it. (myself included ha ha).

Luckily, if I have any major concerns, he is willing to please, and can be instructed without getting 'tude.

In my other band, we see eye to eye on these issues, his tempo/meter sense is well developed, and there is no need for "synching" conversations. As it should be.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-25-2010, 04:45 PM
Big Foot's Avatar
Big Foot Big Foot is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: QC
Posts: 735
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

I do. We have a jazz trio happening and some times we can't all make it but we still try to meet at my place, just bass and drums or guitar and drums. We treat these 2 up jams as a work shop and it really helps. With just the 2 of you there's no hiding! And a click will police you.
What we do is; just improvise on a groove or trade 4s w/ the intention of trying to swing with "perfection". Counting out load and telling the others where the 1 is (for odd time sigs.), really works. It sounds kinda elementary but it works for us. We also do this as a trio.
If we notice we're "off" we'll just stop what we're doing devote some time to really listening to each other.
It helps that we're all on the same page. My band mates are pretty cool about trying to improve so they're into this "workshop" approach. It does depend on the people you're playing w/, because I've been in situations were egos get in the way.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-25-2010, 04:49 PM
fixxxer's Avatar
fixxxer fixxxer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 390
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

I have recently done this with my bassists not really out of neccessity but because no one else could make it to practices! :>)
We figured we should make the best of it and tighten the rhythm section. I have to say that at first, to me anyways, it was excrutiating! I think this was because we were attempting to play our songs and for whatever reason it just didn't work without the rest of the band. We found that if we just jammed and didn't focus on a prescribed peice it was much more effective. He would just start by playing a basic blues riff (for example), I would come in with a basic beat (with no fills at all, at first) and we would just build from there really concentrating on feel for one another.
I learned a lot about myself from those sessions. For example, I found that in some of our songs I was locking into the rhythm guitar more than the bass. I didn't realize that before! Since those sessions more trust has been built and I now lock into the bass. I think I also walked away with a better appreciation for my bassist. He's actually much better than I ever gave him credit for before!
I say definately go for it! You'll probably be amazed at what you'll find.
__________________
"For the words of the profits were written on the studio walls- CONCERT HALL!"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-26-2010, 01:03 AM
Davo-London's Avatar
Davo-London Davo-London is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: St Albans, I work in London
Posts: 1,453
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Polyanna as a bassist and a drummer I have the option to do both and I do it as often as I can. I find that every bassist plays differently. As a bassist I have a tendency to be fractionally ahead of the beat. This isn't intentional. I have to really concentrate and relax to get it spot on. But, it's worth trying both with a bassist to see how it sounds. i.e. you pushing and then the bassist pushing and see how the sound changes. Then of course practice with you both spot on.

Quite often I have to say that the bassist can be to blame for rushing the tempo. So it's really worth practicing together and you can have great jams.

Davo
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-26-2010, 01:38 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Thanks for these comments, guys. All good, and all helpful.

You're right, Larry. When our singer said "I was ok but our bassist was sitting way on top of the beat" that's really just saying that his (the singer's) and my conception of the beat is more similar. Not surprising since we've played in three bands together. Our bassist is a fairly active melodic bassist influenced by Paul and I'm more of a Ringo stick-to-the-beat drummer who stays at home while he roams the melodic realms.

When I was in hospital in December our fill-in drummer came from our bassist's other band, with whom he's played for years. This drummer plays right on top too - he starts all songs a bit fast and has a stronger tendency to speed up than I do. The boys locked in well at the rehearsals I attended when the fill-in guy was learning the ropes.

It seems like the way to see if he's keen to do some workshopping and to just jam in similar genres to the band rather than work on the song arrangements. I'm starting to see value in all players getting together as different duos and focusing on the musical relationship.

Davo, do you think the reason why your sense of the beat is different as a bassist is you have more spaces between notes?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-26-2010, 01:39 AM
DrumEatDrum's Avatar
DrumEatDrum DrumEatDrum is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 9,448
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

I've done it.

The benefits are good. You can concentrate really what the two of you are doing without the distraction of the singer and guitar.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-26-2010, 01:58 AM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 11,361
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
I've done it.

The benefits are good. You can concentrate really what the two of you are doing without the distraction of the singer and guitar.
Ditto. Wholeheartedly agree.

I did have the added benefit of playing with the same bass player on and off for years too Pol (in fact, he's been my best mate for over 20 years now...we started in garage bands together and often managed to get each other into whatever outfit we were with at the time).....no doubt that natural and personal understanding between us helped us both remarkably. We knew each other's playing style back to front and one could easily anticipate the other.

So whenever I played with other guys, it was always that musical understanding I had with my mate, that I tried hard to re-create. Needless to say, at times this was done via a few practice sessions with just the two of us - often this just meant us taking extra time to suss our individual styles out and working to make them gel. No doubt a solid understanding between the rythm section players adds an overall 'tightness' to the performance.....do what you have to do to achieve it I'd suggest.

Last edited by Pocket-full-of-gold; 02-26-2010 at 02:05 AM. Reason: spelling akin to a 4 year old!!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-26-2010, 07:40 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Thanks guys.

Update: I emailed our bass player and he's keen. However, he wants either guitar or keys to come along as well "for colour". I said yes, as long as it's just one of them at a time, not both at once. Looking forward to this.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-26-2010, 10:52 AM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,836
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Thanks guys.

Update: I emailed our bass player and he's keen. However, he wants either guitar or keys to come along as well "for colour". I said yes, as long as it's just one of them at a time, not both at once. Looking forward to this.
Just caught this one, been away. Great idea that can only be beneficial, even if you end up with more differences than you at first thought. My bass player has asked me for a get together. Of course, I'm very receptive to this as it's worked very well with other players in the past. He thinks I don't look at him enough. He needs a visual connection, whereas I don't. I think we already work together quite well considering the short period of time we've played. I'll let you know how it works out. Good luck with your session.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-26-2010, 11:01 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
Just caught this one, been away. Great idea that can only be beneficial, even if you end up with more differences than you at first thought. My bass player has asked me for a get together. Of course, I'm very receptive to this as it's worked very well with other players in the past. He thinks I don't look at him enough. He needs a visual connection, whereas I don't. I think we already work together quite well considering the short period of time we've played. I'll let you know how it works out. Good luck with your session.
Looks like the trend is catching on :) It's not something I've thought of in the past but it makes sense to me for each member of the band to pair off in combination at some stage for focus on their musical relationship. Then maybe break it into threes as well.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-26-2010, 11:09 AM
keep it simple's Avatar
keep it simple keep it simple is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 20,836
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Looks like the trend is catching on :) It's not something I've thought of in the past but it makes sense to me for each member of the band to pair off in combination at some stage for focus on their musical relationship. Then maybe break it into threes as well.
It's something I've done many times before with a number of bass players. It's always been very helpeful. Sometimes you need to strip away the band to reveal the mechanics beneath. Band acoustic sessions work very well too, if you normally play rock or other higher energy music forms. Getting rid of that wall of sound really lays everything bare. I know that doesn't really apply to your current band though as you're virtually an acoustic band already.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-26-2010, 01:11 PM
Pocket-full-of-gold's Avatar
Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 11,361
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
Then maybe break it into threes as well.
Many guys I played with also did this often.........that's when I stayed home and listened to the CD!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-26-2010, 01:35 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by keep it simple View Post
It's something I've done many times before with a number of bass players. It's always been very helpful. Sometimes you need to strip away the band to reveal the mechanics beneath. Band acoustic sessions work very well too, if you normally play rock or other higher energy music forms. Getting rid of that wall of sound really lays everything bare. I know that doesn't really apply to your current band though as you're virtually an acoustic band already.
I never had to do it. A bassist and I tracked through, I think, five bands through the 80s and early 90s and we knew exactly what was happening in the engine room. I was so spoilt - he and the guitarist who was with us in four of those bands had perfect time. Both went on to play with some serious people. If anything went wrong in those bands, it was almost always me, unless the guitarist overdid the whammy bar and went out of tune. (Not counting the singers, who were even weaker links than me). I have no idea WTF they were doing playing with me. Probably sympathy - lol

Now I have a bassist who is more of a true peer, with similar timing foibles. Some workshopping should do us both some good.

We used to have weekly acoustic sessions in the old groups for songwriting and for the tuned players to get their parts together. It's easy for errors to hide in the mix. Often you'll know something isn't quite right but not always straightforward putting your finger on it because it's not one player so much as weak synergies between two or more instruments.

Acoustic band? Us?? Last night we spontaneously broke into the attached piece of geriatric nonsense . I did my best Robert Plant imitation (which is cool because he basically copied Janis). You'll love this ... our singer had never heard of it ROFL

Earlier in the evening we played the other attached piece of ancient history. No wonder I struggle to get my playing organised!
Attached Files
File Type: mp3 WannaWholeLottaStupidity.mp3 (198.7 KB, 184 views)
File Type: mp3 Cry-River-snippet.mp3 (209.8 KB, 166 views)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-26-2010, 05:28 PM
Davo-London's Avatar
Davo-London Davo-London is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: St Albans, I work in London
Posts: 1,453
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post

Davo, do you think the reason why your sense of the beat is different as a bassist is you have more spaces between notes?
Yes and for what I mainly play it is less about ostinato and more about keeping a fairly simple root note with slight embellishments. I tend to play fretless and try to add melody and rhythm to the sound.

I think in most cases a good bassist will play far less than a drummer and deliberately leave a lot of space. I certainly never counted as I do as a drummer. However, I play both by feel a lot and so in that sense there are similarities.

I could go on but I realise this is a drum forum so I'll keep it short.

Davo
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-27-2010, 05:41 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davo-London View Post
I think in most cases a good bassist will play far less than a drummer and deliberately leave a lot of space. I certainly never counted as I do as a drummer. However, I play both by feel a lot and so in that sense there are similarities.
That reminds me of Bill Bruford's description of the first time he played with Tony Levin. Tony wasn't playing much so Bill played more, thinking it was a hint to inspire him to play. Tony played less so Bill played more again. The cycle continued until Tony was hardly playing. At that point the penny dropped.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-27-2010, 06:34 AM
arthurk1's Avatar
arthurk1 arthurk1 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Indianapolis/Vegas/Tourbus
Posts: 231
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

[quote=larryace;669612]Sticky wicket. Who's to say which intrepetation is "correct". If he is on top and you're laying back, who adjusts? (this assumes that the players have enough of a command to shift from "on top" to "on it" to "laying back") I have this issue in my favorite band, the one that doesn't gig much. The bass players time is not very even, he's just not that good of a player, so I just accept it warts and all. It's really not THAT bad, but my bat senses pick up every micro timing thing, whoever does it. (myself included ha ha).

Yeah we just canned our bass player who thight he was such a badass. He always wanted me on top of every beat and I said I'd rather be like Lombardo and have it sound as if it could fall apart at any moment to build tension. It drove him nuts so I would just count in the songs and play them how I wanted to and he either followed me or had his little crybaby sessions. Keep up or quit was the only answer to guys like him.
__________________
Man these things are heavy! Perhaps I should have played the flute? J/K
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-27-2010, 02:00 PM
denisri denisri is offline
Silver Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 599
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Bass and drum rehearsals are great and very productive. Get's both on the same page. Denis
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-27-2010, 02:39 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

[quote=arthurk1;670435]
Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Sticky wicket. Who's to say which intrepetation is "correct". If he is on top and you're laying back, who adjusts? (this assumes that the players have enough of a command to shift from "on top" to "on it" to "laying back") I have this issue in my favorite band, the one that doesn't gig much. The bass players time is not very even, he's just not that good of a player, so I just accept it warts and all. It's really not THAT bad, but my bat senses pick up every micro timing thing, whoever does it. (myself included ha ha).

Yeah we just canned our bass player who thought he was such a badass. He always wanted me on top of every beat and I said I'd rather be like Lombardo and have it sound as if it could fall apart at any moment to build tension. It drove him nuts so I would just count in the songs and play them how I wanted to and he either followed me or had his little crybaby sessions. Keep up or quit was the only answer to guys like him.
I find that where I want to land a stroke - not necessarily where it will land :) - in relation to the beat is often dictated by the singer - that that's part of the deal in accompaniment.

Yes, I find those waaay on top of the beat bass players hard to play with. It makes me feel like I have to rush a little rather than settle into the song.

Our bassist has a tendency to be "toppy" but he's a nice guy and, if he can, I'm sure he'll be keen to combine to the betterment of the song. Thing is, it can be pretty subjective and "toppy" players tend to find those looking to play bang on or behind to be dragging.

Oyr bass player tends to overplay by Davo's definition of a good bassist (adorned tonics right in the pocket). I agree with that to some extent, although there are plenty of songs that I felt benefitted from busy bass playing, eg. Led Zep's What Is and What Should Never Be, The Beatles Don't Let Me Down, Lou Reed's Intro/Sweet Jane (Rock N Roll Animal version) etc.

If a bassist puts appealing complementary melodies in the right places, those accompanying melodies can be an integral part of a song's success. My bass player goes for that at times. He also plays runs to create a sense of buildup, pretty well for the same reason as we play fills. Also, like many of us, he sometimes overreaches. I don't want to cramp his style but I hope to encourage him to "stay home" with me a little more.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-27-2010, 06:15 PM
Rascul's Avatar
Rascul Rascul is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Utrecht, Holland
Posts: 128
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post
After practice tonight our singer and I listened to a few of the recordings. He said that at one stage he was wondering why I seemed to be dragging and noticed that I was ok but our bassist was sitting way on top of the beat.

I'm thinking of asking him to have a two-person rehearsal and jam. Time perception is an odd thing. Some people prefer laying back in the pocket and others like things to drive forward - they want the excitement. It's taste, but if drums and bass feel the beat differently they need work out what's what and meet somewhere in the middle.

I've not done this with any of my bassists before, apart from the occasional fool around at rehearsal. I played with the same bassist throughout the 80s and early 90s so we knew each other's playing inside out anyway so it's not my usual modus operandi. I'd like more of the clarity and punch that tight-knit rhythm sections bring to a band.

Does anyone here have get-togethers with their bassist? If so, how do you find it?
The first thing you need to do in a band is become musically friendly with the bass player. My brother's a professional bass player now, and I've played with him for years - everything I do sounds better with him around. That tought me the importance of seeing eye to eye with your bassist, knowing what he's doing and what his perception of time is. Sometimes that stuff just comes together naturally, sometimes you need those get-togethers, that's no big deal. Moreover, they can be pretty fun, checking out stuff you like together :-)
__________________
Jazz ain't dead, it just smells funny
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 02-28-2010, 08:50 AM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by fixxxer View Post
IWe figured we should make the best of it and tighten the rhythm section. I have to say that at first, to me anyways, it was excruciating! I think this was because we were attempting to play our songs and for whatever reason it just didn't work without the rest of the band. We found that if we just jammed and didn't focus on a prescribed piece it was much more effective. He would just start by playing a basic blues riff (for example), I would come in with a basic beat (with no fills at all, at first) and we would just build from there really concentrating on feel for one another.

I learned a lot about myself from those sessions. For example, I found that in some of our songs I was locking into the rhythm guitar more than the bass. I didn't realize that before! Since those sessions more trust has been built and I now lock into the bass. I think I also walked away with a better appreciation for my bassist. He's actually much better than I ever gave him credit for before!
This comment has stayed with me. I curious about what you guys played when you had had one-on-one rehearsals or jams with your bassist. Where do you start and what sort of material (if any) did you cover? Or did you jam like fixxxer and his bassist?
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-28-2010, 01:27 PM
Davo-London's Avatar
Davo-London Davo-London is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: St Albans, I work in London
Posts: 1,453
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

[quote=Pollyanna;670494]
Quote:
Originally Posted by arthurk1 View Post
I don't want to cramp his style but I hope to encourage him to "stay home" with me a little more.
Pure poetry. Thing is, I find that a lot of bassists don't engage that much with the drummer and this what you describe. Busy bassists in my view are hard work. They will also play the fill at the same time as you.

I would suggest you find a song that has a fantastic and sparse bass feel and listen to it with the bassist and discuss why the feel is so good. Then when you practice playing with your bassist you can suggest playing less and less until the feel is just right. Who knows it might work.

Davo
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-28-2010, 01:44 PM
Pollyanna's Avatar
Pollyanna Pollyanna is offline
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cyberspace, Sydney connection
Posts: 9,971
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davo-London View Post
I find that a lot of bassists don't engage that much with the drummer and this what you describe. Busy bassists in my view are hard work. They will also play the fill at the same time as you.

I would suggest you find a song that has a fantastic and sparse bass feel and listen to it with the bassist and discuss why the feel is so good. Then when you practice playing with your bassist you can suggest playing less and less until the feel is just right. Who knows it might work.
I'll take your word on it, Davo. I played with one bassist for 13 years and he was really engaged. Actually, he could be a quiet dictator at times - the concerned look when I'd do something stupid.

The current guy is more harmony and melody-oriented. I've tended to go with the singer and guitars, myself, so we have some catching up to do.

Yeah, it can be frustrating when the music is calling for a fill and the bass player takes a mortgage on the 4th/8th bar. Ideally, he'll work out some consistent runs instead of free-ranging so I can catch them.

Can you think of any songs with a good sparse bassline off the top of your head?
__________________
.
Polly's rhythms
.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 02-28-2010, 05:44 PM
Davo-London's Avatar
Davo-London Davo-London is offline
Gold Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: St Albans, I work in London
Posts: 1,453
Default Re: Getting together with your bassist

The Police have many examples and this may be the wrong genre for you, but walking on the moon, is simplicity itself, but the drums and bass just fit so well, even though there is no real obviously metric link between bass and drums.

Sting's playing style developed as it's so difficult to play bass and sing simultaneously. If you think about that song he plays bass then sings plays bass and sings. In combination with a 3-piece you have so much space Copeland is allowed to get quite busy and it just works.

Davo
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off




All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Bernhard Castiglioni's DRUMMERWORLD.com