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  #81  
Old 12-14-2009, 11:14 PM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

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Originally Posted by Bif McDrumin View Post
I agree P,maybe I'm just treading water here with these guys.First and foremost I want to enjoy the magic of making music and it is quite possible that this may not happen with the players that I'm with,It's kinda reminiscent of a grade school choir practice..everyone has their heads buried in the sheet music,there is no eye contact,no smirks or subtle adaboys! The hard part is that the group sounds great....but I guess life is all about choices no?
I see your point, Bif. Which way to go? Do we accept weaker relationships for better music or weaker music for better relationships? I guess it comes down to what you feel is a baseline acceptable level of relationships or music. Even if a group is not ideal in certain areas, as long as sufficient boxes are ticked then it's fine.

I always err on the side of good relationships, which isn't a good career move, but these days my ambitions are purely artistic and we seem to be gradually improving. That's the main thing for me now that I've accepted that I'm purely a hobbyist - as long as it's always getting a bit better, I'm happy.

Larry, I almost agree with you but I don't unquestiongly trust the judgement of those who suggest I play things. Sometimes the music you play reminds someone of a song and they try to get to to play like the drummer they heard.

Sometimes other musos don't take into account a drummer's technical limitations. So a drummer might be asked to play a song in a more complex manner (say, a Vinnie beat) but the drummer will execute the simpler beat better. It's like when John suggested Ringo replicate a drum line that he knew was played by two drummers. Sometimes other musicians are a bit naive about what we do (hence this thread).

Typical of Ringo, he just did his best trying things out until John and co were happy.
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  #82  
Old 12-15-2009, 01:28 AM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
I contend that the drummers who recieve instruction aren't playing what is wanted/needed

If instruction is met with defensiveness, then that makes it much worse.

I always say, hey if there's a better way to do something, I wanna know about it. A good attitude will carry you through times of you own personal musical shortcomings.

I take instructions anytime they're offered, with a can do attitude. I'm just happy that they care enough to comment.

Even if you recieve instructions before anyone plays anything, to me it's a sign that the person thinks you might do the wrong thing.

If a guitarist (for example) likes the way the drum parts have been played in the past, he should know that he can trust that there will be an appropriate drum part.

But if, in the past, he hasn't been happy with the drum part, he will most likely try and nip things in the bud. He's probably not doing it to be superior, he's probably doing it (in his mind) for the betterment of the song, not a crime. It's not a good sign when you are being instructed all the time, it is a telltale sign that perhaps they're not as happy with the drum parts as they'd like to be.

All this is my own opinion, not necessarily fact.
Um..I have to strongly disagree with that first statement,instruction from ill equipped minds when it comes to percussion and drumming is nothing more then what we all have been talking about thus far.If I have dikamafritz keyboard player or guitar player or clarinet player for that matter that doesn't know a tea kettle from a snare drum has absolutely NO right in my opinion to dictate what I should play,like I had said in an earlier post when someone that I play with is of sound mind musically he or she earns my respect and then an only then will I take direction from someone or heed their suggestions...I'm just kinda funny that way.I've played with a keyboard player who use to do all of his composing using a drum machine (built into his keyboard),now one evening at rehearsal he suggested that I play this very fast 8th note straight ahead rock pattern just like the one on his keyboard.With not wanting to cause a rift I appeased him and it sounded like AC-DC meets Ella Fitzgerald,so you see what is always suggested is by far not the answer to the "drummer is not playing what the song needs" but again the ignorance on the keyboard player for simply not educating himself beyond the tips of his fingers.And interestingly enough..but who determines for what drum part or pattern is deemed appropriate for the song? I certainly have never told a guitar play what to play or keyboard player what patch to use on a song..that's none of my business nor my expertise,I rely that they are proficiant enough on their instrument that they will know what is correct.There is no I in TEAM and this goes for bands also but when I have another player suggest such an asinine thing again there is something wrong somewhere.As far as being "instructed" all the time ..if this is the case then maybe drums just aren't your instrument.
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  #83  
Old 12-15-2009, 01:55 AM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

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Originally Posted by Bif McDrumin View Post
Um..I have to strongly disagree with that first statement,instruction from ill equipped minds when it comes to percussion and drumming is nothing more then what we all have been talking about thus far.
Would you say that someone who has a suggestion about the way the drums could be played in a passage of a song, maybe even a song they themselves wrote or spent some time working up for the band, is ill-equiped to do so? If not then what would you say makes someone well-equiped to tell a drummer how to play?
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Last edited by con struct; 12-15-2009 at 03:44 AM.
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  #84  
Old 12-15-2009, 03:13 AM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

Bif I am not trying to get anyone to agree with me, there are many different ways to view this scenario. I just think everyone (even the ill equipped ones) has a right to suggest to anyone else, a part to play. That's what collaborative bands do. If it works, great, if not, hopefully another member will point it out, and you keep trying until it does work. I like that aspect of being a bandmember.

I always try someones suggestion, even if I know it won't work. Hey you never know, they might have an interesting idea that wouldn't have occurred to me. So I try it. With a great attitude.

It should go both ways. I've suggested many a guitar and bass part, some which were taken, some which weren't.

Even if the guy doesn't know a snare wire from a telephone wire, that doesn't mean he can't have a valid idea for a drum part.

Attitude counts ALOT towards how I am percieved and I want to make sure that I remain open minded enough to try any suggestion offered. It's the mature thing to do. Then if the part doesn't work, it should be apparant.

I guess I am pointing out that the other musicians don't prefer "know it all" drummers, (or any band member for that matter) and it hurts all of us when one of us is percieved that way.

From the sounds of things, it sounds to me like you play with some very superior minded bandmates who have crap ideas, if so then your comments are understandable.
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  #85  
Old 12-15-2009, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

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Originally Posted by Pollyanna View Post

The guy who asked you to play like an orange was obiously looking for juice :)
What he wanted, after further questioning, was it to sound summery. This then became a surf beat. :-)

He was thinking Jan and Dean, Beachboys etc.
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  #86  
Old 12-15-2009, 08:11 AM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

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What he wanted, after further questioning, was it to sound summery. This then became a surf beat. :-)

He was thinking Jan and Dean, Beachboys etc.
LOL ... but oranges aren't even a summer fruit! Mango or banana or pineapple would make more sense. "Ok Wy, I want you to add some mango to this one" ...

Play it like a orange. Fair dinks. What a clown :)
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  #87  
Old 12-15-2009, 03:10 PM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

Wow that's quite a jump from an orange to a surf beat. Was the guy on acid or something?
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  #88  
Old 12-15-2009, 05:21 PM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

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Originally Posted by con struct View Post
Would you say that someone who has a suggestion about the way the drums could be played in a passage of a song, maybe even a song they themselves wrote or spent some time working up for the band, is ill-equiped to do so? If not then what would you say makes someone well-equiped to tell a drummer how to play?
Not at all,only musicians that have'nt the foggiest idea of rhythm and what role drums and rhythm affect a song,Was just explaining this to our guitar player the other night,I was trying to explain quantizing and how the slightest bit you shift an accent in a beat how that change can dramatically alter a songs feel.Most musicians that I have worked with that write there own material normally compose a drum beat with a DR.Rhythm like drum machine that simply gives you a machine gun sounding hi hat,a snare that sounds like rapping a pencil on a cassette case and a bass drum that is reminiscent of a throw pillow.Now when they bring this song to the table and want me to play just like DR.Rhythm and the song actually calls for a shuffle type beat but the rhythmically challenged guitar player does not know the difference here in lays the problem.I will reiterate,I'm not at all against taking suggestions (NOT INSTRUCTION) from band mates when they actually know what they want and they know what they are speaking about.I play drums and have for many years,this is my instrument..I know about it..I can articulate about it..and I have an understanding of other instruments in a band setting as well.This is all I ask in return,that the other members have some idea of rhythm,beats,tempo and know what the hell a snare drum is...not asking for to much I don't think.
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  #89  
Old 12-15-2009, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Bif I am not trying to get anyone to agree with me, there are many different ways to view this scenario. I just think everyone (even the ill equipped ones) has a right to suggest to anyone else, a part to play. That's what collaborative bands do. If it works, great, if not, hopefully another member will point it out, and you keep trying until it does work. I like that aspect of being a bandmember.

I always try someones suggestion, even if I know it won't work. Hey you never know, they might have an interesting idea that wouldn't have occurred to me. So I try it. With a great attitude.

It should go both ways. I've suggested many a guitar and bass part, some which were taken, some which weren't.

Even if the guy doesn't know a snare wire from a telephone wire, that doesn't mean he can't have a valid idea for a drum part.

Attitude counts ALOT towards how I am percieved and I want to make sure that I remain open minded enough to try any suggestion offered. It's the mature thing to do. Then if the part doesn't work, it should be apparant.

I guess I am pointing out that the other musicians don't prefer "know it all" drummers, (or any band member for that matter) and it hurts all of us when one of us is percieved that way.

From the sounds of things, it sounds to me like you play with some very superior minded bandmates who have crap ideas, if so then your comments are understandable.
As well with me,I don't wish anyone to agree with me our take sides Larry,you are correct that attitude is very important but a band full of attitude shows itself in many different ways.I try very hard not to be a know it all but I am proud of my accomplishments in music and with the time that I have invested in my craft so like with anything else one has sort of earned the fact that they might know what they talking about regarding his or her instrument.Your comment about my band mates is a correct one ,they are very talented jazz player,I've never played with people that never keep their noses out of the sheet music so this is a different situation for me,to me it is almost to much like a machine,very little interaction between members and generally not a fun vibe.But it's a new experience and I'll let what ever happens happen.
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  #90  
Old 12-15-2009, 06:18 PM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

Bif I'm trying to picture your musical situation.
They always read the music being played?
What kind of instrumentation are we talking here?
Does this band gig out?
What style of music is played?

I just can't imagine being in a band where everyone is reading. To me that's an orchestra, all well and good (I couldn't hang) but when you say "band" I conjure up images of your standard 2 guitars, bass and drummer type situation, perhaps keys as well.
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  #91  
Old 12-15-2009, 06:52 PM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

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Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Bif I'm trying to picture your musical situation.
They always read the music being played?
What kind of instrumentation are we talking here?
Does this band gig out?
What style of music is played?

I just can't imagine being in a band where everyone is reading. To me that's an orchestra, all well and good (I couldn't hang) but when you say "band" I conjure up images of your standard 2 guitars, bass and drummer type situation, perhaps keys as well.
Jazz quartet,bass,guitar,keys and drums.Yes we gig doing mostly corporate gigs.Our Keyboardist is very schooled in piano and has taught piano for many years,our guitar player is the keyboard players best buddy and at present we have a revolving door of bassists.It's still early days with this project,the pay is great and I'm not sweating 4 gallons of sweat every night which is a nice change from my other classic rock,fusion,funk bands.You can call it a 4 piece orchestra for lack of better words,not far off the truth.We play great old jazz standards and we if I don't mind saying so sound good just something a miss that's all.Haven't signed in blood yet or sold my soul so if it aint my cupa tea I will vacate and find something else.
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Last edited by Bif McDrumin; 12-15-2009 at 07:51 PM.
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  #92  
Old 12-15-2009, 08:32 PM
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Default Re: Just gotta vent!

Well it's probably a safe bet that the money beat won't work well in your situation ha ha.
Are you reading your part or just comping along?
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  #93  
Old 12-15-2009, 08:39 PM
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Well it's probably a safe bet that the money beat won't work well in your situation ha ha.
Are you reading your part or just comping along?
Tried it...they aren't Floyd fans LOL

I gaze at the charts to begin with but never site read while playing,to many other things to concern myself with.
Comping has worked well for me to this point,but to be honest if I stop playing all together I'm not entirely sure if anyone would notice! lol
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Last edited by Bif McDrumin; 12-15-2009 at 10:25 PM.
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