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  #41  
Old 02-15-2009, 04:56 AM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

While there are definitely some "endorsement whores" out there, most of the drummers I've been influenced by have been fairly consistent about their endorsements, and I am paying attention to stuff like this in terms of how much respect I have for any given artist. It goes to credibility, as they say on television law shows, and any artist who offers their stamp of approval should be doing so with the understanding that they are doing so because the gear in question works for them.

They should be doing it like the rest of us do. I have no deals, but I put my money where my mouth is, and I "endorse" the companies that work for me every time I buy one of their products (not to mention they get a sticker on my bass drum head if I really like them), and as OCD as I get about my gear, it's all or nothing. When I decided to switch to Sabian (based on the RADIA series), I hauled out most of my non-Sabians right away and have been replacing the rest as time and money allow. Same thing with pedals and hardware (all DW). Same with sticks and heads even. I don't care for mixed gear if I can help it, and frankly it's easier from a practical standpoint to only have to deal with a few companies.

Really I'd rather take a picture of me behind my brand new kit and use it to sell my Album or DVD than anything. Just waiting on the kit....and the DVD for that matter.
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  #42  
Old 02-16-2009, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

Firstly, I just want to say thankyou to anyone who put their 2 cents in on this topic but more importantly the pro guys who have chipped in. I started this thread with no concept of the actual process of endorsements- me and my band will never reach tha peak in our career/age - local personal life etc etc-

So it was good to see from your 'inside' point of view.

I dont think for a minute that any of these endorsers from outside the music world actually use or eat the products they sell.

I just have a problem with musicians doing it as let's face it music is about sound- And therefore you cannot tell me that if you see someone selling Z ZHT's and he/she actually plays K's - you know they will not sound the same.


I thought of these 2 analogies- its like a Nascar (I know nothing about this) driver who is shown in a some $15000 car looking like he drives that during races etc- you know well enough that they wont use that in races or someone like Martha Stewart being shown using some $5 Walmart mixer ( I dont know) you know she will actually use some $500 version

I dont know why I hld musicians against a higher benchmark?

However I also understand that with signing some of these contracts there has to be something for boths parties- ie You receive top of the line equipment or special made signataure lines etc- but you also have to have your picture out with the companies name on it- no matter what type of equipment

I guess you just have to assign yourself to a company/people you believe in and are ok with having your name attached to
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  #43  
Old 02-16-2009, 03:13 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

I simply love Bernard Purdie's playing.

Bernard Purdie is an endorsement whore.

I simply love Bernard Purdie's playing.

See? You can separate them.
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  #44  
Old 02-16-2009, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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I simply love Bernard Purdie's playing.

Bernard Purdie is an endorsement whore.

I simply love Bernard Purdie's playing.

See? You can separate them.
In Haiku form no less!
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  #45  
Old 02-16-2009, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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In Haiku form no less!
And in the seldom seen 10-10-10 format!

My favorite Haiku:

My drummer helped me
Count the syllables in this
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  #46  
Old 02-16-2009, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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I started this thread with no concept of the actual process of endorsements- me and my band will never reach tha peak in our career/age - local personal life etc etc-
You never know. But that's part of another discussion about how to be successful as a musician (which begets yet another discussion about what success means.) There are a few factors involved with making it as a player, and luck - being in the right place at the right time - is probably the most important.

Quote:
...someone like Martha Stewart being shown using some $5 Walmart mixer ( I dont know) you know she will actually use some $500 version

I dont know why I hld musicians against a higher benchmark?
We hold musicians higher because we are musicians and can relate. If you go to a chef's forum, they're probably all over Martha (and Emeril and Gordon Ramsay and Bobby Flay) for the things they do and say. Is Iron Chef really that different than Extreme Drumming?

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  #47  
Old 02-16-2009, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

...Regardless of who plays what, I as an old fart that has to buy my own stuff will plunk down my hard earned dough on what I like.

In my case, it is easy to have integrity as there is no worries of ever having it tested. I am however trying to land a drum stick deal, but so far, Kentucky Fried Chicken is my best hope.



I am also trying to land a deal with Pringles, seeing as they are using my likeness anyway.

Barry
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  #48  
Old 02-16-2009, 10:13 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

Barry, Your a shoe in for Quaker Oats if Wilfred Brimley get's canned!!

Besides, your posts "just make you feel good"....
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  #49  
Old 02-18-2009, 09:29 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

Niel Has Always used what he Endoresed, satge and studio, exept for that snares, but it's hard to stay pinned down on that. Unless you're playing a DW VLT! He hehee!
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  #50  
Old 02-19-2009, 09:13 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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Niel Has Always used what he Endoresed, satge and studio, exept for that snares, but it's hard to stay pinned down on that. Unless you're playing a DW VLT! He hehee!
You might be surprised at how many drummers endorse a given brand but use something else in the studio.

Just one example among perhaps thousands: Jeff Porcaro typically used Gretsches and Ludwigs in the studio even though he endorsed Pearl.

Yet another reason (as if any were needed) to ignore endorsements.
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  #51  
Old 02-19-2009, 10:33 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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Niel Has Always used what he Endoresed, satge and studio, exept for that snares, but it's hard to stay pinned down on that. Unless you're playing a DW VLT! He hehee!
Neil Peart?

Who used Wuhan China's when adds in the 80s showed him using Zildjian exclusively?
Who had a Rodgers tom mount on his Tama kit?
Who almost always had a custom finish not offered by the company he represented, and had his drums modified with a fiberglass layer inside the shells? Who's most famous Red Tama kit had a shell that wasn't a stock Tama shell?

It's not quite so black and white, even Neil had shades of grey.
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  #52  
Old 02-20-2009, 02:29 AM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

I don't think we can fault Neil for using what he did in the 80's, as some of that stuff (like the Vibrafibing in the shells) was an aftermarket thing and there's nothing new about Tama doing finishes for artists that they won't offer in the catalog. Wuhan chinas get a pass because they are the genuine article (although Neil is now using all Sabians, even the chinas), and it's never seemed to have been that much of a problem for cymbal companies, probably since Wuhan hasn't had much to offer in the crash, ride or hi-hat department, so no big whoop.

As far as what goes down in studio, some of that might have as much to do with a producer and what he wants to hear, and the drummer goes along with it. Some guys aren't that dogmatic about gear where the sound of the album is concerned.

As far as guys pimping ZXT's when they are really using A Customs or something like that, it likely has more to do with promoting the company as a whole, and not just one specific product, and I'm just guessing here, but it's probably part of the deal. It makes sense anyway. Just because I'm into Radia cymbals doesn't mean that if I got a deal from Sabian I would only say nice things about Radias and ignore or trash everything else they make, nor would I expect them to ONLY use my stature as an artist to promote Radia.
Even Bozzio himself is subject to that kind of flexibility (and he INVENTED the damn things!), and you can see that in the advertising. I think the thing that's keeping his face off of a box of B8 Pro's is the fact that those kinds of cymbals are mostly geared to a younger drummer who is more likely to recognize Chad Smith or "The Reverend" than Bozzio.

So, give the artist some credit too. It's not always his/her call when it comes to the consistency of their endorsements.

And Neil is MUCH more locked in to what he's using now than during the 80's and 90's.
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  #53  
Old 02-20-2009, 07:29 AM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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I don't think we can fault Neil for using what he did in the 80's, as some of that stuff (like the Vibrafibing in the shells) was an aftermarket thing and there's nothing new about Tama doing finishes for artists that they won't offer in the catalog. Wuhan chinas get a pass because they are the genuine article (although Neil is now using all Sabians, even the chinas), and it's never seemed to have been that much of a problem for cymbal companies, probably since Wuhan hasn't had much to offer in the crash, ride or hi-hat department, so no big whoop.
I had a poster of Neil from Zildjian, giving a detail account of every cymbal on his kit, only they had replaced the Wuhan with their own Chinas. It was quite a shock to my then teen age self find out the poster had "lied" about what kind of china he used.

As for his kit, not justhe Vibrafibing and the custom finish, but the actual shells on his red kit were not anything Tama offered to the public at time, they were thinner shells than than Super Star, that had been custom made just for him. Other than the lugs on the shell, and the fact that the Tama company made a special shell kit for him, there was almost nothing "Tama" about his red kit when they delivered it to him. Tama later marketed that shell, calling it the Artstar, although it came with different lugs than the Super Star lugs Neil had.

Although neither Neil nor Tama ever hid this fact, so it wasn't a lie, but still, if you wanted to buy a Tama kit like his, you couldn't.

But you are correct, he's all DW and Sabian now, as per the ads.
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  #54  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:12 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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Originally Posted by Derek Roddy View Post
One other point should also be addressed.......

People have a tendency to follow their friends. I've seen that become a priority... over the gear. For instance.......when we see an artist move to a different company, we automatically think it has to do with the gear.... when 9.9 times out of 10....it's because their friend there (could be A&R, buyer, etc...) moves to another company or get fired unjustly. This causes artist to want to make a move (sometimes to the company their friend has moved too)...and sometimes it just because artist feel a loyalty to PEOPLE.....not the gear their playing.

I'll be the first to say that..... the reason I'm with the companies I'm with right now......is the people. Yes, I love the gear I'm playing.....but, everyone makes good gear. People aren't always good people.

D.
Extremely Excellent Point!! The companies I deal with a lot is b/c well...I like the people! There are some brand we carry where the company/rep is a pain in the ass. Therefore, I don't do a whole lot of business with. I tend to spend money with the companies who's people I like.
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  #55  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Neil Peart?

Who used Wuhan China's when adds in the 80s showed him using Zildjian exclusively?
Who had a Rodgers tom mount on his Tama kit?
Who almost always had a custom finish not offered by the company he represented, and had his drums modified with a fiberglass layer inside the shells? Who's most famous Red Tama kit had a shell that wasn't a stock Tama shell?

It's not quite so black and white, even Neil had shades of grey.
I can really complain about any of this stuff either that Neil did in the day

* His red set was literally a prototype...meaning one and only...it was a test kit. When they came out with ( Art Star) later on there had been adjustements
* He had Wuhan AND Zildjian....you can see the Wuhans in numeroous tour book photos.
* Custom finish...? OK. So?
*Rodgers tom mount ...well he apprently could not ( until the Red ones) find something that worked...I can tell you the swivomatics were nice back in the day.


A side note...I also love my Radia cymbals and DW drums...I have no idea why Radias never "took off".....baffling.
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  #56  
Old 02-20-2009, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

This reminds me of Lance Armstrong, he's sponsored by Trek Bicycles and he rides them when he races but sometimes during qualifying aand some races he'll ride a Litespeed bike that is painted as a Trek. Litespeed bikes are...legit.

But I get what you mean. I also love how some bands just want to get endorsed to get endorsed. I've got a few friends who are a bit endorsee happy and they don't even use half their endorsements. I think they just want them as a show off thing or something. They even tried to get sponsored by Greyhound buses which made me laugh for about nine hours...cause they're not very good. No offense to them.
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  #57  
Old 02-21-2009, 01:17 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Neil Peart?

Who used Wuhan China's when adds in the 80s showed him using Zildjian exclusively?
Who had a Rodgers tom mount on his Tama kit?
Who almost always had a custom finish not offered by the company he represented, and had his drums modified with a fiberglass layer inside the shells? Who's most famous Red Tama kit had a shell that wasn't a stock Tama shell?

It's not quite so black and white, even Neil had shades of grey.
I recall seeing him listed several times in late 1980s/early 1990s issues of Modern Drummer magazine as a Wuhan endorser in the "Endorsement News" section.

Like it was mentioned before. I find it odd that he chose to forget about the years where he used 24" bass drums in the three-part DW ad he did.
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  #58  
Old 02-21-2009, 01:27 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

Ian Paice seems to happily use the Pearl & Paiste gear he endorses, including his signature share. On stage & in studio.
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  #59  
Old 02-22-2009, 12:46 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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Originally Posted by drumtechdad View Post
Does anyone over the age of 13 really care about--or, more important, alter their buying behavior--because of endorsements?

If they do, shame on them.
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Oh you just know that Peart followers bought up tons of tama and the ludwig kits in the 80's. Both were ripping mad when he defected to yet another brand. Now since DW is too expensive, they connect with Neil via less expensive drums, and paragon cymbals.

Paragon: the best way to make B20 sound like B8!
...and who is buying all of these reissue kits such as Moon's Premier or Bonham's Ludwig?
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  #60  
Old 02-22-2009, 01:49 PM
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I dont know why I hld musicians against a higher benchmark?
Probably, because you are one. Really what it comes down to is I would like to think artist would have more integrity in what they are using for their art. In a world of whether Tiger Woods drives a Buick or not, it really doesn't matter ultimately because it doesn't effect his golf game one way or the other. There was concern at one point though when other companies were taking off in great leaps in golf technology & he signed some long term deal with Nike who possibly could be holding back his game. But whether it was Buick or Mercedes really doesn't apply to him.

I think I am like Bermuda, I only endorse what I play. I have been playing GMS & Evans since '93 and Paiste since '85 and endorsing any other would seem misleading.
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Although I have considered "ethical" ways to try to draw attention to my high profile clients, most if not all are endorsed with other companies. I have always had a problem with using their names - even with their permission - because it still creates some poor optics which is what we are discussing here.

I do believe that snare drums in particular are one area where endorsements SHOULD be off the table. No one company can offer everything in a snare drum.

Until I can find a way to do that and feel good about it, Dunnett will remain and endorser free company because, as we say, an honest drum makes it's own friends. And they do.
You make a great point here in regards to snare drums Ronn. I do own a Ludwig Black Beauty which is their drum per se.
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  #61  
Old 02-22-2009, 04:57 PM
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...and who is buying all of these reissue kits such as Moon's Premier or Bonham's Ludwig?
I think you cross connected my point.

The turn of this thread is that endorsements don't/should not matter. I say, they have been extremely significant. Bonham clone sets have been steadily popular, and that pictures of lilly clone sells a number as well.

Tama got a boost in sales, as did Ludwig when Peart was on board. People that bought a tama were angry when Neil jumped to Ludwig, and the same goes for ludwig to DW.
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  #62  
Old 02-22-2009, 08:03 PM
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I have no idea why Radias never "took off".....baffling.
The painful truth about that is that you have to have a set of 4, 6 or 8 crash or china cymbals for the difference to be heard. Even I didn't notice until I bought the small crash set (8, 10, 12, 14"), but then I was looking to do the solo drum thing anyway. Most drummers, on the other hand, seem to think you are overdoing it if you bring more than a hi-hat and a cowbell to the gig these days. You know....more minimalist than thou or some such thing, so the opportunity to even get that many cymbals together in one sitting never really came for most folks.

I always considered the 8 crashes to be one instrument by itself, capable of generating 8 tones. They make sense when you look at them that way. Same with all of the bells and china stacks.
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  #63  
Old 02-22-2009, 08:40 PM
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I recall seeing him listed several times in late 1980s/early 1990s issues of Modern Drummer magazine as a Wuhan endorser in the "Endorsement News" section.

Like it was mentioned before. I find it odd that he chose to forget about the years where he used 24" bass drums in the three-part DW ad he did.
Yes, eventually, he got an Wuhan endoresment. I think I still have the poster somewhere.
But I also had the poster from his pre-Wuhan endorsement, when Zildjian clearly stated he only used Zildjian China's even though it wasn't the case.

I'm not saying Neil ever lied about what he used, I just making conversation that he didn't exactly endorse 100% stuff that the ads were enticing people to purchase; it may be neglible differences, but they existed.

But yes, the 24" Bass drum thing is weird. The DW ad implies he's played a 22" BD for most of his career, when he didn't switch to 22" until his blue Ludwig kit in 91 or so.
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  #64  
Old 02-22-2009, 08:46 PM
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...I have no idea why Radias never "took off".....baffling.
What was odd, was about a year or two after they came out, Bozzio and Sabian had some sort of falling out. There was no mention of Bozzio in Sabian ads or on their site, and Bozzio made no mention of Sabian on his webiste, although he was clearly still using them in pictues.

Then after a few years, it all went back to normal, and now Bozzio is back to saying he plays Sabians, and Sabian is back to listing him.

But for a while, they didn't mention each other. I'm sure that hurt sales for a time.
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  #65  
Old 02-22-2009, 10:59 PM
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What was odd, was about a year or two after they came out, Bozzio and Sabian had some sort of falling out. There was no mention of Bozzio in Sabian ads or on their site, and Bozzio made no mention of Sabian on his webiste, although he was clearly still using them in pictues.

Then after a few years, it all went back to normal, and now Bozzio is back to saying he plays Sabians, and Sabian is back to listing him.

But for a while, they didn't mention each other. I'm sure that hurt sales for a time.
By the time Bozzio and Sabian had their little tiff, the RADIAs were on the out as far as production goes, so sales were not really affected by that. What I found amusing is that Bozzio eventually returned to Sabian, which tells me that NOBODY ELSE would touch the concept of RADIA cymbals!

In the end, it made me a stronger endorser of Sabian for their willingness to stick it out through something like this, and their fortitude to go where other cymbal companies dare not go.

Although, it would have been an interesting irony for me to switch to Sabian after 15 years in Zildjian-land, only to have Zildjian start making RADIA (the whole reason I went to Sabian in the first place) and Sabian has to change the name on the pies from then on.

I might have torn my hair out!
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:25 PM
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I think you cross connected my point.

The turn of this thread is that endorsements don't/should not matter. I say, they have been extremely significant. Bonham clone sets have been steadily popular, and that pictures of lilly clone sells a number as well.

Tama got a boost in sales, as did Ludwig when Peart was on board. People that bought a tama were angry when Neil jumped to Ludwig, and the same goes for ludwig to DW.
I know. I was adding on to your point. I think they shouldn't matter, but truth is they do.
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  #67  
Old 02-22-2009, 11:27 PM
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I know. I was adding on to your point.
Ok... makes sense.

I am waiting to see the effects of Mapex snagging up everyone.
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  #68  
Old 02-22-2009, 11:34 PM
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Ok... makes sense.
The thing is they are still connecting with the "child" inside the adult. Sure it's adults buying these kits. But they are kits of the heroes they had when they were kids. They just couldn't afford the gear the heroes were using at the moment.
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  #69  
Old 02-23-2009, 12:02 AM
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The thing is they are still connecting with the "child" inside the adult. Sure it's adults buying these kits. But they are kits of the heroes they had when they were kids. They just couldn't afford the gear the heroes were using at the moment.
They are. I have read part of Pearl endorsement contract. Like others, it's such a front. The endorsing artist must proclaim how he/she "found his/her" voice with this brand. This becomes a totally trite statement if they change brands frequently. But people still believe it.

As far as I am concerned, the sound of the DW kit Peart is using now, is in no way better than his Ludwig was.

I do feel sorry for the gullible and uninitiated. I saw some guy drop a bundle on a new Starclassic kit and cymbals, trying to get Lar's sound from the black album tour. I was thinking...well good luck without a well paid soundman and a lot of EQ.
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  #70  
Old 02-23-2009, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by trkdrmr View Post
I saw some guy drop a bundle on a new Starclassic kit and cymbals, trying to get Lar's sound from the black album tour. I was thinking...well good luck without a well paid soundman and a lot of EQ.
Haha...and he used a Gretsch kit on that record! LoL.

D.
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:47 AM
trkdrmr
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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Originally Posted by Derek Roddy View Post
Haha...and he used a Gretsch kit on that record! LoL.

D.
That is a fricking riot!!!!

Now if he can only eq his tama to sound like an eq'd Gretsch....
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  #72  
Old 02-23-2009, 04:36 AM
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dale w miller dale w miller is offline
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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Originally Posted by trkdrmr View Post
They are. I have read part of Pearl endorsement contract. Like others, it's such a front. The endorsing artist must proclaim how he/she "found his/her" voice with this brand. This becomes a totally trite statement if they change brands frequently. But people still believe it.
Nothing like that is in any of my contracts with GMS, Paiste or Evans. Knowing them like I do I have a hard picturing they would ever have anything such as this.
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Old 02-23-2009, 04:39 AM
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Nothing like that is in any of my contracts with GMS, Paiste or Evans. Knowing them like I do I have a hard picturing they would ever have anything such as this.
Some companies have more class than others. I can see where pearl (at least at one time) demanded a lot from endorsees. Normally, I'd think that frequent public exposure should suffice.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:33 AM
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Mikecore Mikecore is offline
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

It's a combination of many things. I like PDP drums right now because they can make what I want to build my kit. Gretsch can do the same, but in the scheme of things I trust PDP, and Gretsch loses out (put six lugs on an 8" tom and we'll talk). Sometimes it comes down to the most esoteric of things.

Of course, I am doing something most drummers have NO use for, so maybe my bias is worth double points right now. I am such a nerd where drums are concerned.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:50 AM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

Its a business & unfortunately like most things these days, it all comes down to a bottom line. Honesty means very little.
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  #76  
Old 02-23-2009, 04:34 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

I just saw an add with Cindy Blackman for Istanbul cymbals.
Just when her Zildjian K Dark Medium Ride is super popular.
Has Zildjian run off another artist?
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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Originally Posted by Chris_D View Post
Its a business & unfortunately like most things these days, it all comes down to a bottom line. Honesty means very little.
On the contrary, it's those who are honest that stand out and are highly valued by the companies. Those drummers are the real winners.

Bermuda
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:30 PM
henno henno is offline
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

Hi guys, first time on the forum, I,ve been reading with interest. Re: endorsement marketing lies; having never considered it as important or at all I agree with what drumtechdad said. It's really up to the individual buying the equipment to be informed about the sound they want. Having admired lots of drummers for many years, never felt moved to purchase their brand. MAYBE IT WAS MONEY or considerate taste, what struck me as being more important than working and saving to have what my hero,or idol has sitting in a picture,was the sound and feel needed to improve my own ability whatever that may be. I play and practice on electronic drums Roland td 9kx now for neighbourly relation reasons. I do get the point it's a matter of trust, with most business ops focused only on trusting what will work to sell, sell sell. Drummers learn very quickly or at least should, there are a lot of brands, logos, endorsements etc, to spend money on out there, the only way is to visualize the sound you need and go and find it yourself.

Henno
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

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Originally Posted by henno View Post
Drummers learn very quickly or at least should, there are a lot of brands, logos, endorsements etc, to spend money on out there, the only way is to visualize the sound you need and go and find it yourself.
An artist's endorsement is really meant to attract attention to the brand, not to create instant sales based on the name alone (although it certainly happens.) I never purchased anything solely because another drummer endorsed it, no matter how much I respect or believe they are honest about their gear. But I have been moved to explore some brands & products that I might not have been aware of, to include in my purchasing decisions.

Nobody ever bought a Trick pedal or Sabian cymbal or Ludwig kit outright because I said they're great, but I know several drummers who explored those brands because they know that I've already done my homework and made careful decisions as to what I use.

Sadly, we know that many celebrity drummers do not possess much integrity when it comes to the gear they endorse, and what they actually use. I am very cautious to make sure I'm not lumped in with them, and I can assure you that the companies I endorse appreciate my principles, and that I really use the gear that I say I do.

Bermuda
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: Endorsement Marketing Lies

I can't remember where it was but there was a driver's seat pic of Gadd using DW pedals, and Nathan Followill of Kings of Leon plays DWs and when asked has mentioned them. But hasn't mentioned the Jarrah Block Brady snare he uses.

Tom
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