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  #1  
Old 10-03-2017, 03:29 PM
rmac86 rmac86 is offline
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Default Should I be annoyed?

Recently did a gig (wedding after party) where we were asked to play in a private residence. After setting up and sound checking I overheard our keyboard player talking to the father of the bride. Basically he announced his sons friends band were going to play a set at the start of the night and that they would be using all our equipment - keys, guitars, mics amps and my drums. Before I could say anything our keys guy had already agreed to this which annoyed me somewhat. He then argued me down saying I had no right to be possessive over my gear, which in my mind 1600 of my own money begs to differ.

So I acquiesced to the decision as it was argued there was no room on stage to put another drum kit and no time to do a change over. Mildly annoyed at this point, but not about to sabotage everyone's night just to have a strop.

So the compromise became that this young guy would be able to use the shell kit, but would have to supply his own snare, cymbals and bass pedal. I was told he was ok with this but then got a phone call a few hours later to say he couldn't find my cymbals or bass pedal anywhere, turns out he'd "forgotten" to bring his own. Again this started an argument between myself and the keyboard player (who was the point of contact for the family) and at this point I said he wasn't to touch my kit. This was ignored and not only did he use all my cymbals and snare, but he also de-tuned all drums to the point where I didn't have enough time to rescue them before I played, so they sounded like paper and not the nice musical tone I had spent ages trying to achieve.

I must say that the rest of our "support" band were very gracious about being able to use our gear, but the drummer was too busy staring at his shoes to say anything apparently.

Several things about this annoy me - mainly other band members willingness to just loan out my gear to whoever wants to play. Secondly, the attitude of the kid who didn't bring a single bit of gear and just expected to be allowed to play whatever was there, and not want to even thank me or apologise for de-tuning the whole kit. And lastly the attitude of the father who just assumed we would be ok with this. And I suppose ultimately the fact I broke my balls to afford all my gear just for some young buck to show up and use it all for free.

So, do I have the right to be annoyed over this?


Thanks,

R
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  #2  
Old 10-03-2017, 03:47 PM
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Mike Stand Mike Stand is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Yep, you can be annoyed.

I think you were confronted with a textbook case of a person's sense of self-entitlement and lack of consideration for others.

Welcome to the human race.

There are just some situations where people assume they can do what they want without considering others. And if the person who is aversely affected then says something about it, everyone treats them like they're in the wrong.
Unfortunately, sitting at another person's drumkit and bashing away seems to be one of those situations.

If I hire a craftsman to work on my house, that doesn't mean that I get to use all his tools.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Absolutely...without a bit of hesitation in my opinion.

Not only the arrogance of the "father", but the disrespect of your keyboard player are out of line. Any such agreement should have been worked out in advance down the the last detail and including-"there shall be NO retuning of the drums"-period, no discussion, no drum key even meft near the kit. They provide sticks and cymbals minimum, and if not deal is off.

Doubtful you would work for the father again, but what arep the chances you would have anyway?
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  #4  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Yes, you should be very annoyed. I'd probably tell them that there was no discussion about our personal equipment being rented out to others. Pre-arrangement and massive deposits should be required.

I think people who entertain in situations like this need better contracts.

But the situation, as bad as it was, is by far darker than you think.

In the late 80s and early 90s, I worked as a professional Pee-Wee Herman impersonator. People would hire me to entertain for their kids or parties. Sometimes the kids, or even adults, would get rather abusive. As a result, I suffered some injuries from children, as well as grown adults who should know better.

The reason why they behave in this manner is because YOU, the entertainer, are not a person. You are a THING that was purchased.

Your band is a thing. The way he sees it, he bought you for a few hours. Since he's paid for you for a few hours, he can do with you whatever he wants. He can have his friends sit in on your gear. He can spill his beer all over your kit.

This is because you are not perceived as a person. You are a purchased commodity. He owned you.

Much like my music gigs, a lot of those Pee-Wee gigs were fun. But there were too many times where I came to the quick and accurate realization that I am a thing, an object that was purchased.

One problem was that I could not break character and confront children or adults. The SOLUTION for me was to have an extra person there as security. What I did was have my now ex-wife go along, dressed as "Ms. Yvonne," from the TV show. She would tell the kids, "It's not nice to hit Pee-Wee. You wouldn't want him to hit you, right?"

She would also collect money. Yea, there were people who would not want to pay. She would be the jerk, instead of me.

I think the solution for a band is to have that extra person who is not shy about standing up for the band. Someone who can pose as a manager, in exchange for pay. That person who enforces the fact that your music gear is your livelihood, and that it is not a toy to be played with.

That way, you don't have to stand up for yourself, which can cause problems.
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  #5  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:08 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

I would suggest looking for a new keyboard player.
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  #6  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Keyboard player sounds utterly untrustworthy. The conversation with him needs to go something like "Never loan out my instrument without asking me ever again."
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  #7  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:24 PM
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mattyfatty76 mattyfatty76 is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by PQleyR View Post
I would suggest looking for a new keyboard player.
New keyboard player or new band.
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  #8  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:32 PM
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mikyok mikyok is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Yes, yes and hell yes I'd be annoyed.

You're hired to entertain, not be a gear hire company. We have a strict don't touch the stuff policy.

I had a scenario a couple months back where we'd set up and this guy comes up to us asking to play drums on a punk song because he'd brought his own sticks. He was a tad miffed when we asked if he'd brought his own kit too. Not sure what he expected me to say........Yes mate you're pissed up and I'll let you loose on my old Ludwig and my K's because you've got you're own sticks.

Your keyboardist sounds like a right bell end. He'd have needed a bloody good dentist after agreeing something like that and then having the nerve to say I was in the wrong for objecting. Smash his keyboard up with a cricket bat (I'll happily lend you one!) and tell him not to be possessive over his stuff. I guarantee he wont pull that stunt again :)

Doing the weddings you can get people who think they're Ringo after several ales. I've had to turf people off stage before and I hide my stick bag whilst I'm not sat at the kit. Makes my blood boil when it happens.
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  #9  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:36 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Agree with all that's already been said. Completely out of line on both the father's and keyboardists side, but unfortunately all too common. The kid was probably just being a snot by detuning your kit because his entitled self felt put out by the fact that you had any issues with him playing your stuff in the first place.

One option in those situations, like when they want you to play another set past your agreed upon time and you've been there for hours and hours already and just want to go home, is to charge money. Oh yeah? You want to keep dancing? $300 for another hour for the band. Your kid wants to play my drums? Drum rental is $80...

You get what you pay for, so do they. If they're that determined to change the parameters of the agreement, then they can pay for it. Someone else's ignorant assumption does not become your responsibility without compensation.
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  #10  
Old 10-03-2017, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

You have every right to be annoyed, but you also seem selfish at the same time.

The biggest foul, in my mind, is that the kid de-tuned your drums, and he didn't thank you for allowing him the use of your drums.
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Old 10-03-2017, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

I would have been like, well find a new drummer. Broke down all my gear, pack it up and left them all to dust..

I worked my butt of to buy all my gear, if anyone is going to destroy it , it will be me.. not some twit I do not know to ruin my equipment. Then the next day when the band calls and pretends to not understand I would be sure to explain what a bunch of brainless twats they are and that I can not write music with a group of people that have no respect for what I contribute and work hard to put into the music that is created.

But that is me. I am an Ahole at least that is what my wife tells me.. So I live up to it best I can but never complete.
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
You have every right to be annoyed, but you also seem selfish at the same time.
.
If being selfish is keeping your kit in tip top gigging condition and not letting someone you've never met before on your stuff because some trumped ivory tinkler said they could, then guilty as charged.

My definition for someone who does is an idiot.

If you think audience members should have some self-entitlement to get behind a kit then do it with your own.

Would you let someone who you'd never met before drive your car because someone else said they could? Oh yeah they let the tyres down before they drive off.
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Golly, I'm absolutely fuming on your behalf. Why didn't the lad just grab your car keys and go for a spin? It's pretty much the same thing. It absolutely beggars belief that people think it's ok to avail themselves of other people's stuff.

I've been wondering what I would have done in that situation, and I'd have done what I always do. I'd have said No.
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:15 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by mikyok View Post
If being selfish is keeping your kit in tip top gigging condition and not letting someone you've never met before on your stuff because some trumped ivory tinkler said they could, then guilty as charged.

My definition for someone who does is an idiot.

If you think audience members should have some self-entitlement to get behind a kit then do it with your own.

Would you let someone who you'd never met before drive your car because someone else said they could? Oh yeah they let the tyres down before they drive off.
This

Never trusted keyboard players mesen, am 40 now and started playing in bands at 15. Only had 1 keyboard player in that time, and that was enough.

Another option would've been this:

I was in exactly the same situation a few years ago, the kid didn't even turn up with frikkin sticks!

They asked me if he could use my kit and I said yes if I could use his girlfriend because it amounts to the same thing! In the end I just said "look, you can use it, but if you even slight scratch, scrape or break anything even slightly, I will tear your f*&$*& head off"

I've never seen a drummer tickle the drums so lightly in my life.

At the end I apologised for being so aggressive with him but made the point that he was lucky he even got any kit to play on and that he should ALWAYS turn up with a snare, cymbals and kick pedal.

We parted amicably :-)
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:28 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
They asked me if he could use my kit and I said yes if I could use his girlfriend because it amounts to the same thing!
I'm going to use this when the situation arises.
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
This

I was in exactly the same situation a few years ago, the kid didn't even turn up with frikkin sticks!

They asked me if he could use my kit and I said yes if I could use his girlfriend because it amounts to the same thing! In the end I just said "look, you can use it, but if you even slight scratch, scrape or break anything even slightly, I will tear your f*&$*& head off"
Nothing OTT about that at all. Not your job to provide for someone else and if he was cheeky enough to not show up with ANYTHING and expect to use your stuff, he's cheeky enough to wreck your stuff and do a runner too and I've been on the receiving end of that once.

Going back to the OP it's something that happens once and then you put your foot down and it never happens again.

It's a shame the old heavy duty cymbal stands of the late 70s and 80s aren't common place anymore, my mom and dads old drummer still has a premier boom arm with a counter weight at the bottom that got waved under a few noses back in the day when people started taking the mickey. You could go into battle with this thing, you could also use it to put cymbals on if you got bored:)
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:39 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

I would have refused. If your bandmates don't get it it's time to move on.
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:45 PM
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Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikyok View Post
If being selfish is keeping your kit in tip top gigging condition and not letting someone you've never met before on your stuff because some trumped ivory tinkler said they could, then guilty as charged.

My definition for someone who does is an idiot.

If you think audience members should have some self-entitlement to get behind a kit then do it with your own.

Would you let someone who you'd never met before drive your car because someone else said they could? Oh yeah they let the tyres down before they drive off.
You're just way too into your "stuff". Sorry if I don't value things like you do because you work so hard for your "stuff". Good for you.
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

The situation of someone wanting to use your drum kit and acting as if there's some kind of entitlement involved isn't unusual. However I was stunned to read that this bloke even went so far as to "tune" your drums, that is shocking and it's just a shame that you didn't see him doing it in time to stop him.
And I find it hard to believe that your keyboard player spoke "on your behalf!". If anyone ever asks me anything legitimate about anyone else's gear (I.e, use of power sockets, repositioning for walkways etc) I would automatically refer them to the person responsible/affected.
I've posted this recently elsewhere on Drummerworld, but when a person who I consider to be a good drummer damaged the hoop of my brand new drum kit on its very first public outing by not taking the care to line his pedal up correctly I changed my mind there and then to say no to anyone wanting to use my gear. Fortunately as a covers band we're not in the situation of having support acts etc but I'm not afraid to assert my right if I ever get asked.
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:58 PM
KamaK KamaK is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

When we were gigging/touring, I solved this dilemma by creating an LLC and buying/owning/supplying the entire backline. IIRC, the drums were Yamaha TC's with a set of Zildjian A's. Our drummer often brought his own snare, ride, and sticks.

When other bands needed to use our gear, I had rental agreements printed and on hand. All of the gear was insured. I didn't have to ask any of the other band member's permission.

I know that this may not be a solution to the OP, but understand that there are numerous benefits to running a band like a business. The only down sides are the initial investment and that you really need to pay your taxes.
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Old 10-03-2017, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
You're just way too into your "stuff". Sorry if I don't value things like you do because you work so hard for your "stuff". Good for you.
I think you may be on the wrong thread.

Lots of stuff precious people who are into their stuff and don't want their stuff to become well and truly stuffed when people are let loose on said stuff and knock the stuffing out of it.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
You're just way too into your "stuff". Sorry if I don't value things like you do because you work so hard for your "stuff". Good for you.
Perhaps something that can be applied here is Thomas Sowells quote, I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money", but make it thread relevant by changing it to I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to preserve the kit you have earned money to pay for, but not greed to want to expect to use somebody else's kit.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Midnite Zephyr -< his avatar and city of origin "Surf City, USA" should be enough to explain his logic..seems like maybe you bumped your head on the reef a few to many times..

Surfs up dude...
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:07 PM
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Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
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Midnite Zephyr -< his avatar and city of origin "Surf City, USA" should be enough to explain his logic..seems like maybe you bumped your head on the reef a few to many times..

Surfs up dude...
Well, that's not very nice. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean California has anything to do with it.

Ohio...isn't that a place you drive through to get to somewhere else?

How do you like it?
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
You're just way too into your "stuff".
Isn't this the attitude that got the OP into the situation shared above?

I always find it somewhat amusing, and a bit sad, how some people feel qualified to tell others things like this. "YOU are way to into YOUR stuff".

Honestly not your place to make that call....

Not to mention, a drummers gear is more than a little bit beyond just "stuff". And you have no idea how they would react to you if you had say, an emergency need. This same person just labeled "too into" their stuff, might just be the one to give you the literal shirt off their back....

Something to think about...
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:09 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Yes, you should be annoyed.

Talk to the keyboard player. If he can't see the problem, get a new keyboard player or quit. Why? Because of this one incident? No, not because of this incident but because more crap like this will come your way if he doesn't see anything wrong with this.

You can always send him a bill for new sticks and drum heads.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:09 PM
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Masheanhed Masheanhed is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnoWorld View Post
They asked me if he could use my kit and I said yes if I could use his girlfriend because it amounts to the same thing!
I thought about using a similar line but then I've seen what they guys drag with them sometimes.

I played with a group where a couple of the guys were bad about volunteering for someone to "sit in" for a few songs (buddies, guests, biker in the audience, birthday boy). I finally quit being Mr. Nice Guy and said no more or I would start loaning their stuff out.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:14 PM
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Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

I don't regret or take back a word I said. You have your opinions and I have mine. Who are you to tell me where my place is at?

This is a discussion, and yes I think it's a little bit obsessive with your stuff. I've had my stuff at a party, my precious Slingerland, and somebody leaned on the tom too hard and snapped the mount. It really sucked! But I got over it.

I agreed he should be annoyed, but for manners more than material worth.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by Masheanhed View Post

I played with a group where a couple of the guys were bad about volunteering for someone to "sit in" for a few songs (buddies, guests, biker in the audience, birthday boy). I finally quit being Mr. Nice Guy and said no more or I would start loaning their stuff out.
Good move.

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  #30  
Old 10-03-2017, 06:24 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

To clarify, and I think many would agree, there's nothing wrong with sharing or lending out gear, IF that's your choice. It's all in how it's approached. With notice and an agreement, I can choose to bring a less finicky or less valuable kit to the gig.

Even without notice, if someone comes up to me and is courteous and respectful and gracious, and actually understands that this is really my choice, I might still do it, and have in many occasions.

This is not either of those situations.

I have, way more than once, shared my kit for multi band shows only to have hardware stripped and drum heads demolished without even a "sorry I kind of went overboard". It even went so far as to have someone complain that I need to use newer heads and better hardware. I'm too old for that BS.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

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Originally Posted by Magenta View Post
Golly, I'm absolutely fuming on your behalf. Why didn't the lad just grab your car keys and go for a spin? It's pretty much the same thing. It absolutely beggars belief that people think it's ok to avail themselves of other people's stuff.
And while you're in the car, make sure to re-arrange all the mirrors, seat positions, and steering wheel tilt.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Midnite Zephyr -< his avatar and city of origin "Surf City, USA" should be enough to explain his logic..seems like maybe you bumped your head on the reef a few to many times..

Surfs up dude...
Yea, or maybe he just realizes that stuff isn't that important, and "being annoyed" gains you absolutely, literally, nothing.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Yeah I'd have been annoyed as you were pretty much forced into it.

Not cool to have not been given much of a choice really, it's just basic decency to to open a proper dialog about gear and people wanting to use it beforehand.
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Old 10-03-2017, 06:55 PM
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

I had to borrow a drum set at a gig once, in 1987. I played keyboard for Robin Baxter, and we had a show at Club 88 in Santa Monica with the band Tom Sawyer. I remember them, 30 years later, because of this experience.

Our drummer thought that he could leave LA the day of the show to drive to San Francisco to buy weed. That scenario raises a bunch of questions, but the bottom line was that we were taking the stage in 15 minutes, and we had no drummer.

Robin talked to me, and we agreed that we'd sacrifice the keyboard and I would step in for drums. I'd not played our songs on drums before, but I knew that I could do it.

She approached the drummer and struck a deal with him. She gave him $500 cash as a deposit, and said he could keep $100 for the favor.

The kit was very well set up; nothing too extreme. I made some adjustments to how I play, and did not adjust anything about his kit. The show went well, and Robin got $400 back. In a state where nothing was working out smoothly, it was nice that this did.

I've had people ask to borrow my kit before. Then they proceed to move cymbals around, move toms, remove toms, and so on. One guy even started messing with the springs on the pedal. I've had moments where I would cringe with every beat, because the "drummer" had no technique, resulting in the kit being more abused than played.

I no longer lend gear. One would have better luck borrowing my underwear or Chapstick.
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  #35  
Old 10-03-2017, 06:59 PM
brentcn brentcn is online now
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

It's not unusual for a guitar or bass player to share an amp, but the guitar itself is not usually up for grabs.

Sadly, stuff like this happens, especially on the private/wedding gig scene. Sometimes, the person who books the gig wants so badly for everything to go well, that they say "yes" when they shouldn't. Often, the clients don't realize that they're asking for too much. But you're a drummer, not a backline company, and you'll need to lay down some ground rules. Letting anyone play your kit is not worth a cracked cymbal, or a snare knocked over to the floor. Heck, it's not worth a drum stick.

Do as myself and others have done, and lay it down like this: you have a POLICY. Any sit ins must provide cymbals and sticks (snare is reasonable too). At this point, most will decide that it's not worth the trouble, and the request will go away. If they still want a kit to play, but would like to not bring anything to the gig, offer to rent them a backline kit and cymbals, and attach a price quote for that (usually from $300-$1000, depending on location). Subcontract out the backline work to a local company, complete with transportation, set up, and tear down, and include a $100 commission for yourself.
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  #36  
Old 10-03-2017, 07:34 PM
crispycritters crispycritters is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
You're just way too into your "stuff". Sorry if I don't value things like you do because you work so hard for your "stuff". Good for you.
You seem to be missing the point that someone else made the decision to loan out his 'stuff'. If you believe others have the right to make your decisions for you regarding who can use your equipment that's fine, but somewhat unusual that you don't seem to grasp why the majority of people don't share your sentiments.
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  #37  
Old 10-03-2017, 08:00 PM
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Midnite Zephyr Midnite Zephyr is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crispycritters View Post
You seem to be missing the point that someone else made the decision to loan out his 'stuff'. If you believe others have the right to make your decisions for you regarding who can use your equipment that's fine, but somewhat unusual that you don't seem to grasp why the majority of people don't share your sentiments.
You seem to be missing my point. Dr Watso had no problem seeing my point.
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  #38  
Old 10-03-2017, 08:17 PM
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Ohio Ohio is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnite Zephyr View Post
You seem to be missing my point. Dr Watso had no problem seeing my point.
I think your point is irrelevant based on the overwhelming majority of response on this thread.

Oh btw, Ohio has the Rock n Roll music hall of fame, it is the birth place for many bands and musicians like:

FILTER
Nine In Nails
Marilyn Manson
Dean Martin
Rascal Flatts
Dave Ghrol
Mushroomhead
Maynard James Keenan(Singer for Tool)

and a huge list of countless others. Ohio is like the perfect pair of boobs ready for music motor boating, Ohio is a haven for music.

However I would prefer that YOU just keep on driving through it to get somewhere other then here..
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  #39  
Old 10-03-2017, 08:17 PM
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Tone Laborer Tone Laborer is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

Annoyed ? Sure, there's lots of things about bandmate and gig situations that can be annoying. But don't wear it as a chip on your shoulder.

I also wonder why the Op wasn't there during the opening set since it was concern. Was there a discussion drummer to drummer?

There's worse that can happen at a gig.
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  #40  
Old 10-03-2017, 08:31 PM
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philrudd philrudd is offline
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Default Re: Should I be annoyed?

'He then argued me down saying I had no right to be possessive over my gear.'

Always amazed by what people deem to be 'rights'...

And for the record, wanting to preserve your gear doesn't strike me as being overly-obsessed with 'stuff'. If you're happy to let a stranger bash away on your kit without notice, good for you. You're a mensch.

But me? My stuff costs money. Money I work for - spending part of my life-force to acquire. I can do with it (or NOT do with it) whatever I damn well please.

If that strikes you as overly materialistic, send me your drums.
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