Ludwig Lug Splay Solution

Cuttlefish

Junior Member
Hello all!!

I've perused these forums off and on for years now and it's another fine resource for information. So glad it's here :)

Anyway, I've decided to come out of the shadows because I need to see if anyone can answer these two questions with some authority:

1. Will aftermarket Gibraltar triple-flanged hoops correct the dreaded Ludwig lug splay?

2. Will Gibraltar hoops even fit on the Ludwig Classic Maple drums?

I spent roughly six months doing copious amounts of research on my next (and probably final) kit and finally decided on the Classic Maples. They have everything I could want in a drum in terms of sound. I knew about the lug splay issue, in fact, I saw various degrees of lug splay on every modern Ludwig drum I tried out at the local drum shops. Of course, it doesn't affect that wonderful sound whatsoever, but I can possibly see tuning/durability issues in the long term. Sooooo, I would like to know if this is a good solution to correct this issue or am I just gonna have to deal with it? I haven't really found specific answers to these questions through my own research so I've come here in the hopes of getting some :)
 
Hello all!!

I've perused these forums off and on for years now and it's another fine resource for information. So glad it's here :)

Anyway, I've decided to come out of the shadows because I need to see if anyone can answer these two questions with some authority:

I spent roughly six months doing copious amounts of research on my next (and probably final) kit and finally decided on the Classic Maples......... I saw various degrees of lug splay on every modern Ludwig drum I tried out at the local drum shops. :)


Contact LUDWIG directly, that'd be something cool to ad to the forum and we'd like to know what they think about the design flaw.

Aftermarket hoops will fit, but they won't correct the problem, which is a mathematical lug to shell oversight.
 
I spent roughly six months doing copious amounts of research on my next (and probably final) kit and finally decided on the Classic Maples.

Can you show me recent Ludwig Toms/Kick with this problem ?? I was not aware of this.
 
Aftermarket hoops will fit, but they won't correct the problem, which is a mathematical lug to shell oversight.
That's not necessarily true. I had splay issues with one (non-Ludwig) snare when I put S-hoops on it, but had no issues with a set of 3mm triple-flanged hoops.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the splay at all unless you've got a drum with tube lugs, where the splay can cause the tension rods to bind in the lugs. And even then, snares are the only drums that have enough tension in the t-rods for splay to matter.
 
The lug insert is designed to swivel within it's seat in the lug casing to accommodate a certain degree of tension rod splay.
It doesn't cause any tuning issues or damage to the drum.

If you like the Ludwig kit then you should buy it and enjoy it to the fullest.
Ludwig drums are not the only drums that have some tension rod splay.
If you want you can add a double lug gasket to bring the lug out from the shell a slight bit.
I personally think that it would be a waste of time and money to do so. :)

I own a modern Black Beauty that has no lug gaskets. There is a slight degree of splay.
It is one of my favorite snare drums and I sometimes can't wait to get home from work to play it.
I also have a vintage Gretsch Cob snare that has some splay. Another beautiful drum that I have cherished for almost 40 years.
 
My research has lead to be believe there are two issues that both contribute to the splay:

The first was the change from 1.6mm to 2.3mm hoops
The second, is attributed to the theory that the actual shell is now ever so slightly smaller than they used to be. The evidence used to support this theory is that the specs of Imperial lug itself haven't changed, yet there is a distinctly larger gap between the centre bead of the shell and the Imperial lug on newer drums, especially when compared to those of the 60's and 70's. The best explaination for this discrepancy is that the shells (no doubt as a cost saving measure) are now ever so slightly slightly smaller.

It's worth noting that I haven't been able to confirm this through any official sources. But it makes sense and all seems to fit. The theory is touted around the internet in various places if anyone cares to look for it. Given this, I'm gonna hazzard a guess that it won't matter what 2.3mm hoop you use. The smaller shell is still gonna come into play.

The lug insert is designed to swivel within it's seat in the lug casing to accommodate a certain degree of tension rod splay.
It doesn't cause any tuning issues or damage to the drum.

Most definitely. It's an aesthetic issue only.....hell, even Cindy crawford had a mole on her lip. I never heard many complaints there. ;-)
 
The best explaination for this discrepancy is that the shells (no doubt as a cost saving measure) are now ever so slightly slightly smaller.


... or maybe their molds have shrunk.
 
The best explaination for this discrepancy is that the shells (no doubt as a cost saving measure) are now ever so slightly slightly smaller.


... or maybe their molds have shrunk.
:) :) :)
The 3 ply Ludwig shells that were discontinued in the 70's were slighter larger in diameter.
The slightly smaller 6 ply shells that replaced them have remained the same over the years.
 
Firstly, thanks to everyone for their comments thus far :)

I've already ordered the drums some time ago, so the splay was not a deal breaker for me. They just sound so good to my ear...splay or no splay lol.

I have in fact seen splay on the wood snares as well. Doesn't seem quite as pronounced as their metal snares though. But it's there nonetheless. It's quite possible that the drums arrive with no splay at all. But if they did, I wondered if there was a solution.

I haven't seen splay on other drum brands but then again, I wasn't really looking for it either. I noticed it on the Ludwigs only because I've known of the issue beforehand. So as it goes, would I have noticed had I not known? Interesting question...

So with a solution seemingly out of reach, the next question is whether or not it would affect the drum's tuning or durability (e.g. stripped rods, stripped lugs, etc). Since the receivers have some play in them I'm guessing not, but has anyone had this issue as a direct result of the splayed lugs?

I'll contact Ludwig just to say I did, but I suspect I will get a canned answer lol. They haven't bothered to fix it so it's probably a non-issue to them.

P.S. I missed the bit about it not affecting the tuning or drum integrity. So I won't worry further about it :) Thanks a bunch!!
 
Originally Posted by Les Ismore
... or maybe their molds have shrunk.


So have I, mate. So have I.


That's what life does to us....






It's quite possible that the drums arrive with no splay at all.

So, order LUDWIG and 'pray' they arrive with good fit/finish. Is that where its at with the old lion? Is that the message informed/caring potential customers (with plenty of other drum brand options) are getting from these drum forums??


I haven't seen splay on other drum brands but then again, I wasn't really looking for it either. I noticed it on the Ludwigs only because I've known of the issue beforehand.


Dude, you're reading way too many drum forums. Believe 'only' what you read on DRUMMERWORLD and then only w/caution.

So with a solution seemingly out of reach (hah!!), the next question is whether or not it would affect the drum's tuning or durability (e.g. stripped rods, stripped lugs, etc). Since the receivers have some play in them I'm guessing not, but has anyone had this issue as a direct result of the splayed lugs?

The LUDWIGGIES have responded, there's a 'swivel nut' in the lug, which is an ancient part invented to counter design inconsistencies. In the days of yore tube lug designs ruled, but you had/have to be somewhat precise when threading screws into tube lugs. The swivel nut solved this problem, build tolerances could be way off, the screwer could be drunk, high (way off) and the swivel nut insert would come to the rescue of the screwee and save thread.

In general lug splay is unsightly, take it as you may. For some it can be a major issue, especially when a company is selling a pricy snare drum/kit with tension rods jacked all over the place. Then you're in the shop and see a new $100 snare drum that's lined up perfectly, like they might have used a computer in the design process, hmmmm, or at least the proper math, or any math at all. It begs the question 'why'? This is the 21st century, our cell phones are smaller, more powerful than the computers that got us to the moon and back. Lug splay??? C'mon, who's paying for that!!

Some people are perfectionists, more detail conscious. They'll see a kit onstage, or a $2000.00 snare with rods jacked all over the place and equate it with low quality, they can't justify dumping all that cash and it not being perfect... and in this day and age it should be. Your character may then be in question too, like "Why you would spend your money on that, are you as un together as your drums(?)" etc. The influence of brand loyalty and a companies steep heritage could cause one to overlook certain things. Good for the manufacture...maybe for awhile, until the competition starts getting fatter.

In the case of LUDWIG it may be a matter of something like changing an established design will be a big ha$$el, they might not feel the effort is worth the cost, they've got some more splaining to do. The reality is any new, or old-skool builder can look at their faux pas and say "Hey, we can easily fix that... and our stuff will look more together"! That's exactly what's happening.


On the bright side lug splay does help hold tuning, especially on tube lugs. If rods/lugs are lined up perfectly in tube lugs, there's a better chance of detuning from vibration as the friction of the misalignment (lug splay) produces a little holding power. Ditto on lug designs with inserts (swivel nuts), the more out of wack the splay, the more friction equaling better holding power. That's been my experience anyway. There's variables, like how well the threads are cut etc. which in the case of 2013 the threads are cut more precise with consistency. In the old days loose threads meant lug splay was not as effective as it is in modern/higher tolerance times. Some old SUPRAS (when they were new) even with excessive lug splay didn't hold tuning worth a crap, thread tolerances were inconsistent. As the drums aged, tolerances (if lucky) were taken up (somewhat) by the effects of time on the material, usually in the form of corrosion.
 
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Dude, you're reading way too many drum forums. Believe 'only' what you read on DRUMMERWORLD and then only w/caution.

Oh believe me, I always pass any info from forums through the filter of my own experience and knowledge and take with a grain of salt anything that doesn't sound right.

Some people are perfectionists, more detail conscious. They'll see a kit onstage, or a $2000.00 snare with rods jacked all over the place and equate it with low quality, they can't justify dumping all that cash and it not being perfect... and in this day and age it should be. Your character may then be in question too, like "Why you would spend your money on that, are you as un together as your drums(?)" etc. The influence of brand loyalty and a companies steep heritage could cause one to overlook certain things. Good for the manufacture...maybe for awhile, until the competition starts getting fatter.

I bought the kit for the sound and nothing else. Heritage is nice but certainly not a reason to buy a drumkit. In fact, I would say that the greater the heritage, the more one should scrutinize the product because with time comes complacency and then mediocrity in many cases. The splay is not a huge deal to me. If it was I wouldn't have ordered the kit at all. It's not nearly as concerning as a terrible bearing edge or a crappy wrap job. Now one could say that not correcting the lug splay is more indicative of a lazy attitude that might show up in other areas of the kit. But with the handful of Classic Maples I examined during my time in the shops, the shells themselves looked impeccable. The finishes were good. The hardware was sturdy. No else seems to mind it so I won't be picky about it.

Are there better drums out there in terms of fit/finish? Absolutely. Tama, Yamaha, and Pearl are all exquisitely manufactured kits. But they won't give me the sound I want. Closest was the Club Custom and it's still a far cry from the Ludwig. Plus, what's up with those weird sizes? :p
 
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You actually got me thinking about something, Les. The difference between perfection and tolerance.

What I mean is that a kit could be as near to perfect as possible in implementation and still come up short either in design or aesthetics. Or perhaps the design is near perfect and the implementation sucks. Or the kit just "looks" terrible.

Now I think we can toss out aesthetics because it won't affect the sound of the drum. May not look great but for me sound is paramount. So then we are left with implementation and design.

If the design is bad then arguably implementation is a moot issue since the design will yield a negative result no matter what. If the design is sound, then implementation is fairly critical to the success of the design in its intended application. I say "fairly" because some items are more critical than others as far as drums go.

The bearing edge is the foundation for the whole thing. Muck that up and it's over. Same would go for shell integrity (ply separation, etc). After that, it's a game of degrees. How much a given flaw will affect the sound of the drum and the durability of the hardware.

I think lug splay would be near the bottom of significant flaws on both counts. Yea, it's awkward looking but apparently harmless.

I see what you're saying regarding QC and I totally agree. If there was another kit that offered THAT sound with Yamaha-style QC then that would be the obvious choice. And perhaps I could pay more from a boutique and get perfection. But then, I'd be paying significantly more money to avoid what is essentially an aesthetic concern.

$2000 is alot of money to plunk down on a kit...but ya know it's not even close to the top end of what you could pay for a drum kit. Now, if we were talking 8-10k for a Crav, then yes it needs to be perfect...no ifs, ands, or buts about it. But that's a whole other consideration. The guys who can afford Cravs AND don't mind parting with that much cash for a drum kit are gonna be the same guys that demand perfection in nearly everything they want. That's just my observation. The rest of us working poor have to balance out the pros and cons on a lesser kit :)

Ludwig does need to address the lug splay issue because at the end of the day it does reflect on their QC as a whole. But at the same time, people are still buying those kits. I wonder how many were returned because of lug splay? Probably not enough to get Ludwig's attention. And that speaks volumes about it's significance to most drummers in my eyes.
 
For what it's worth, my 2011 Classic Maples with glass glitter finish show no lug splay.
 
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I just took a close look at my 68 Keystone toms and there is almost no lug splay that my eyes can detect.
My 2012 Club Date Asian built toms and snare also have almost 0 splay.
Only my modern Monroe built Black Beauty snare has noticeable splay.
I still consider it a non issue.
 
Now I think we can toss out aesthetics because it won't affect the sound of the drum. May not look great but for me sound is paramount. So then we are left with implementation and design.

The average Joe audience member won't know the difference between a good sounding kit and a kit that doesn't sound 'as' good, there's only one kit onstage (99% of the time) and sound is so subjective, but they'll see lug splay (if they notice it) as a design flaw, it doesn't look right, things should be straight in the age of CAD and NAFTA.

So aesthetics do play a big part of the whole picture, even if subconsciously. If I like a kits looks it sways me 90%, I can make it (any (decent) kit) sound pleasing enough to my ears. Im not supporting anything new that's not made well, tension rods splayed, wacked out, there's no reason for it in this day and age.


Ludwig does need to address the lug splay issue because at the end of the day it does reflect on their QC as a whole.

Ya think?


I wonder how many (kits) were returned because of lug splay?

... or how many didn't buy kits b/c of the design flaw? Me! Score-1 for not buying b/c of poor design aesthetic. Hmmmmm, bet they'd like to know those numbers.
 
Considering how long these splay debates have been going on I'm surprised no one has really done any work to find the cause. It seems like if it was a change in shell or hoop size, or a difference in new vs. old lug casings someone would have pulled out a ruler by now and found the reason.
 
Bermuda? Any news on the official position Ludwig has on this?

Seems to me they dont see it as an issue as much as some do or they would change it. Its obvious to all but maybe only perceived as a problem to those who havent heard their explanation. It could be part of their "design" instead of a mistake as many seem to think.
 
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