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  #1  
Old 04-25-2009, 04:28 PM
wormtownpaul wormtownpaul is offline
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Default 16th notes on Hi Hat

One of the hardest things for me to do is to get any speed up playing 16th notes with just my right hand on the hi hat. Jeff Porcaro and others do it comfortably at 100 bpm and over. I do it comfortably at 85 bpm and stiffly at 90. I can't seem to get any faster. There's a guy on youtube from Europe who does a Porcaro tribute and looks so damned comfortable playing these suckers at around 100. Any suggestions of what to do to improve?
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Old 04-25-2009, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

PRACTICE!!!!!111 one
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Old 04-25-2009, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Just work on your chops and it will come in time. There really isn't any shortcuts to relaxed, clean 16th notes on the hats(or either hand for that matter).
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Old 04-25-2009, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Hi
Practice slowly and stay relaxed. A good song to practice 16th note single hand hi hat work is a Crosby Stills and Nash song called Southern Cross. Check it out. Denis
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:17 AM
chocorion chocorion is offline
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

I would say start developing your moeller stroke. Try to utilize the bounce that you get from the downstroke and just kind of let your hand bounce. It's literally lifting your wrist up while your doing a downstroke. It's really hard to explain in text. Do a google search and watch some moeller youtube videos. Knowing the moeller helps ALOT with fast hi hat patterns.
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Old 04-26-2009, 12:32 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

I'd say play 16th notes to a metronome at your highest comfortable tempo, but practice playing them as loud as you can for like a week. After that you can probably raise the BPM a bit, but play them not as loud for a while till you get comfortable with them at that faster tempo, then after they are comfortable at a medium volume, start practicing them loud, and repeat until you are going as fast as you want. Your muscles need more capacity to hold blood, so you have to work them a little
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  #7  
Old 04-26-2009, 12:54 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Try to develop the moeller stroke.Basically all drummers who play 16nth notes on a groove , generate this motion inherently.It's the only natural way to execute this pattern , otherwise it is bound that you will hurt your right hand.You must do the whippinh motion and the pull out stroke , but not pay too much attention to it couse you'll miss the groove.

A first thing to do, is to relax your grip.Don't squeeze the stick and let it bounce and then you'll generate sooner or later this motion.Stay relaxed!
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  #8  
Old 04-26-2009, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

While the Moeller Stroke has many uses. I don't find it that great for 16th note ride patterns in which all note must remain unaccented or at the same dynamic. All Moeller-type strokes (including push-pull) are inconsistent in that every note is not played exactly the same. There are upbeats and downbeats. Only good-old fashioned wrist and fingers sound exactly the same note to note.

Here are some points to consider:

1. Don't hit the hi hat too hard
2. Don't hit the hi hat too hard
3. DON'T HIT THE HI-HAT TOO HARD!!!
4. Use your fulcrum and get those fingers moving. Get the ball bouncing.
5. Be prepared for this to take a couple of years before you can look/sound like that guy in the video. I don't care what "technique" you use. The essential ingredient is dedicated practice.
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  #9  
Old 04-26-2009, 02:55 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Jeff Porcaro's technique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HB59qH9T-I
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Old 04-26-2009, 04:59 PM
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  #10  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:38 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wormtownpaul View Post
One of the hardest things for me to do is to get any speed up playing 16th notes with just my right hand on the hi hat. Jeff Porcaro and others do it comfortably at 100 bpm and over. I do it comfortably at 85 bpm and stiffly at 90. I can't seem to get any faster. There's a guy on youtube from Europe who does a Porcaro tribute and looks so damned comfortable playing these suckers at around 100. Any suggestions of what to do to improve?
Wow this is me to a T. Fight of my life trying to play along to "Kissing My Love" at 92bpm.

I've played with hi-hat height recently too. Hoping some real deep work with help me stay loose and get faster?
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  #11  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:01 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

I started learning Moeller technique a couple weeks ago. The other day when I was on the kit lo and behold I spontaneously started using Moeller on the hats and the ride. So effortless! I sort of get it now. And there's something about the motion that just dials in the groove, like I feel it throughout my body and not just my limbs...difficult to describe. It's like dancing.
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:06 PM
Ajthundersticks Ajthundersticks is offline
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Quote:
Originally Posted by denisri View Post
Hi
Practice slowly and stay relaxed. A good song to practice 16th note single hand hi hat work is a Crosby Stills and Nash song called Southern Cross. Check it out. Denis
Good recommendation, that song is relentless in it's 16th's without being exhausting.

I also recommend playing Everlong (Foo Fighters) if you want to see quick improvement. It will destroy you though!
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  #13  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:40 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

I would approach this problem using two complimentary approaches: A. spend as much time as possible playing 16th note hi hat grooves at a comfortable/slightly uncomfortable tempo and B. work on building necessary strength and endurance in your wrists at uncomfortable tempos.

"A" would include playing songs with the 16th note hi hat groove, improvising in that style, coordination exercises under 16th notes, etc.. It's much easier to accumulate time doing something if you mind is occupied on a higher order task.

For "B", I'd recommend you work on wrist strokes on a low-rebound surface (a towel on a practice pad works well. Fold the towel in half to increase difficulty) for 2-10 minutes at a time using full range of motion.

Best,
Connor
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

appreciate the tips Connor!
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  #15  
Old 09-12-2018, 08:29 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

You don't have to get a lot faster. Like, a lot of Brazilian drummers have ridiculously fast right hands, and it's a very cool effect at a certain tempo range, but it doesn't keep getting cooler the faster you go. High 90s is a reasonable real-world ceiling for that kind of thing. Then if you want you can keep refining it into the 100+single digits.

You have to do it a lot. I find it helps at first to lay your index finger on top of the stick-- that controls the rebound and helps you find the right technique. The Brazilian guys use a lot of finger technique.
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  #16  
Old 09-12-2018, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
... it's a very cool effect at a certain tempo range, but it doesn't keep getting cooler the faster you go.
It took me forever to figure out that's true of most techniques.


Quote:
Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
I find it helps at first to lay your index finger on top of the stick-- that controls the rebound and helps you find the right technique.
That sounds perfect. Gotta try it. I figured there was some technique that I was missing. Just muscling out 16th's at quicker and quicker tempos wasn't working at all. I can get some decent speed, but it sounds stressed. Maybe this will help me get rid of the "Coffee! Coffee! I need another coffee!" sound.

I think piano players refer to that stressed sound as "scratching" at a piano. I sound like I'm "scratching" too much of the time. Even if other people don't hear it, I do, and it's an ugly sound.
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  #17  
Old 09-12-2018, 11:21 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Note that this is not directed at any one poster or post but; please stop with the automatic calls for "moeller" whenever someone talks about technique on the forum in any capacity.

It's not an end-all, it's not appropriate for use in quick one handed 16ths, and I think most of the people don't even understand what it really is.

The best approach to the quick one handed work on hats is something called push-pull in most circles. You want one stroke on the downswing and one more on the upswing. It's not Moeller, which is meant to be an arching whip stroke where sometimes a drummer utilizes the momentum of the first stroke to gain a less-effort second stroke. When playing quick notes as described, you'll be much better served by training your wrist in the subtle movements that facilitate what I think of as a quick "tapping" motion. You do utilize a little bit of the bounce from your first note of each set, but because you're playing quick, you can't swing back up to do anything even remotely Moeller.

Remember, Moeller is a whipping motion with a loose grip. Doing that when you're trying to do even sounding hat 16ths above 100 is going to be literally counter-productive and have you working harder.

Back to the actual question, what helped me get into it was to visualize these small stick motions and correlate that with the type of push-pull I want to utilize. My hand needs to come down a bit for the second of each set so that when I get my "pull" stroke, it sounds out nice and clear. It ends up looking like a rocking motion as my wrist facilitates the second stroke, not whip-momentum from a "moeller" stroke, which is also a valid technique but not a good one for what we're talking about.

Honestly, I think it's the name that does this. People get excited about learning a famed name technique and tend to over-apply just like the drummer over-using a new fancy fill they're working on.

I wish people would just call it a whip stroke instead of moeller, which gets attributed to all kinds of things made worse by youtube idiots who also don't know what they're talking about.
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
..please stop with the automatic calls for "moeller" whenever someone talks about technique on the forum in any capacity.

It's not an end-all, it's not appropriate for use in quick one handed 16ths, and I think most of the people don't even understand what it really is..

The name of a technique is the name of a technique, no need to get hyper about such things..

When playing the hi-hat with the neck/shoulder of the stick Moeller makes no sense, because there will be no rebound..But when playing the hi-hat with the tip of the stick Moeller can be applied perfectly for fast 16th patterns if someone mastered the technique..A Moeller stroke can have 1, 2 but also 3 rebounds (playing 4's), then why would Moeller not be appropriate for quick one handed 16th's on the hihat..?

Otherwise, please explain us why Dom Famularo here is wrong and also why he should be forbidden to use the word 'Moeller' from now on..lol..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45NSac-a5ss
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  #19  
Old 09-13-2018, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
The name of a technique is the name of a technique, no need to get hyper about such things..

When playing the hi-hat with the neck/shoulder of the stick Moeller makes no sense, because there will be no rebound..But when playing the hi-hat with the tip of the stick Moeller can be applied perfectly for fast 16th patterns if someone mastered the technique..A Moeller stroke can have 1, 2 but also 3 rebounds (playing 4's), then why would Moeller not be appropriate for quick one handed 16th's on the hihat..?

Otherwise, please explain us why Dom Famularo here is wrong and also why he should be forbidden to use the word 'Moeller' from now on..lol..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45NSac-a5ss
He's demonstrating my points perfectly. He's playing correct moeller in this video raising the stick up, whipping it down and also demonstrating how that whip can generate "free" notes as he says. I'm actually not sure why he keeps using the term "low" but then demonstrating moving his sticks up like 12 inches and whipping down in correct moeller form.

What he's not doing is demonstrating the type of continuous even spaced and volumed strings of 16ths with one hand we are talking about here. You're helping to make my point that the term "moeller stroke" is not only over-used and mis-understood, it's being given as an automatic "solution" to any drum problem when it's really a pretty specific thing. I think a lot of that comes from the fact that rather than describe it with a descriptor "Whip stroke" we use someone's name who helped popularize it and lots of people don't actually get what it is or why it's used.

Shoulder or tip, at high speeds, one handed work makes no sense to use whipping motions for. You're wasting energy, not saving it. Even if you did manage real whip strokes on one had over 100 bpm, it would sound rather un-even unless you really concentrated on making the second bounced note loud, which is even more effort.
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Old 09-13-2018, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
I'm actually not sure why he keeps using the term "low" but then demonstrating moving his sticks up like 12 inches and whipping down in correct moeller form..

Then why are you presenting yourself here as the 'Moeller-expert' telling everyone why they can and can not use the term 'Moeller' for a certain technique that they want to apply..?

Because if you would have also looked part 2 and 3 of that series, you would have seen that a Moeller stroke can be devided into low-Moeller, half-Moeller and full-Moeller..

If you only refer to a full-Moeller stroke, then yes, playing a fast 16th hi-hat pattern is not what comes to mind first..But when using low-Moeller, that technique can be perfectly applied for that..
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:57 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
Then why are you presenting yourself here as the 'Moeller-expert' telling everyone why they can and can not use the term 'Moeller' for a certain technique that they want to apply..?
I did no such thing. I don't even tend to use the term at all, let alone call myself an expert. I utilize whip strokes when it makes sense, and I manage to do it without obsessing about some dude's name or thinking everything can/should be played that way.

People are here (not just this thread) calling a duck in front of us an antelope. I don't need to be a duck expert of any sort to say that's nonsense.

Quote:
Because if you would have also looked part 2 and 3 of that series, you would have seen that a Moeller stroke can be devided into low-Moeller, half-Moeller and full-Moeller..
I was bored after 30 seconds and had a hard time sitting through that part one entitled "low moeller" on the opening screen. Why on earth would I go looking for more of that?

Regardless, because you're trying to assert a few things about me here, I went ahead and searched up the other two videos. I now wonder if you actually did that because I just did... And guess what? Video 2 was talking about even bigger moeller strokes coming from the elbow. Just to make sure you were talking without knowledge behind it, I also found video 3 which literally has him lifting his whole arm above his head for a huge whip stroke. That first video was in fact his "low" moeller.

So you're literally re-enforcing my point further. You don't understand what moeller is, yet you're here telling people their time is well spent on moeller for the purpose of quick one handed 16ths. Even getting uppity when I correct things.

Quote:
If you only refer to a full-Moeller stroke, then yes, playing a fast 16th hi-hat pattern is not what comes to mind first..But when using low-Moeller, that technique can be perfectly applied for that..
No. Once again. Moeller is a whip stroke. Fast one handed 16ths in the context of this thread are not whip strokes. I promise. You're either not understanding what Dom means, or being obtuse because you didn't like my irritated tone in the previous post.

This really is a problem, and it's a big problem on the internet where anyone on this board can say what they like right or wrong. I see drummers literally obsessing about things like "double stroke rolls" or "Moeller" when what they really need to do is think about the end goal and not the tools that help us get there so much.

The best way to really approach what we're talking about in this thread is much more of a push/wave motion than a whip. It's also commonly done with mostly finger control, but I find that method has a lot less "bite" to the sound.
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Last edited by Dr_Watso; 09-13-2018 at 04:14 AM. Reason: bad mood language
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Old 09-13-2018, 04:20 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
..Just to make sure you were cluelesss..

Lol..

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Weaves View Post
..There are some REALLY condescending people on here trying to maintain their status as "forum stars"..

Taken from another thread, but as far as i am concerned the Quote Of The Month..
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  #23  
Old 09-13-2018, 04:47 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
Taken from another thread, but as far as i am concerned the Quote Of The Month..
You'd rather go pull someone else's statement from an unrelated thread than just admit you were wrong and acknowledge that you re-enforced my point with every post?

No skin off my nose. My only concern is that people coming here for help were getting incorrect, or incorrectly-termed advice and I've said my piece to correct it.

The Moeller (loose-handed whip) stroke is a great thing to learn, and use where appropriate. It's not a good thing to obsess about, over-use where inefficient, or get sidelined by when you're trying to learn how to do quick one-handed 16ths. Hell, while I'm doing one handed 16ths, I might throw in a whip here or there as an accent to the pattern! They have different uses!

As we can all see by the general confusion across the internet, it really pays to spend time with a teacher and look at techniques literally physically and as a tool. It's great to watch all the cool videos out there, but a video cannot tell you when you haven't fully understood something, or are missing a subtlety, or just have a slightly wrong hand position, or whatever. You need honest feedback sometimes to work through things like this.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:02 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Got to agree with Doc on this one. When it comes to blazing fast singles, one hand or two, the fingers are the masters. Moeller is great for certain things, but at a point the whipping motion is a waste of motion/energy.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but watch metal guys. Blast beats are all fingers. Moeller takes too long. WFD videos confirm this. The fastest guys are all fingers. Moeller robs the drummer of time.

Learn to use and control/manipulate the bounce of the stick. For speed, that's where it's at.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:05 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Before the BS gets too deep, letís get back to basicsó-you very much can use a very low version of Moeller to play this. It doesnít really look a lot like the full whip stroke, because itís a very subtle, small version of it. The way you GET there, though, is by practicing the really big, slow whip strokes.

I am messing around with a reverse version of this, inspired by Freddie Gruberís double stroke technique, where the first stroke is French grip, and the last one is German grip. Itís sort of a mirror or reverse of the Moeller, but itís the same idea, just in reverse.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:06 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by toddbishop View Post
I find it helps at first to lay your index finger on top of the stick-- that controls the rebound and helps you find the right technique.
I find the same. A few times people have told me it's incorrect and less efficient, but it's a habit I never really dropped when I'm not in front of a teacher. It seems comfortable when you're pushing and don't want a lot of rebound as you say.

Was anyone here specifically taught by their teacher to do this?
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:15 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
..You'd rather go pull someone else's statement from an unrelated thread than just admit you were wrong and acknowledge that you re-enforced my point with every post?..

I know i should not, but ok, i reply..

That quote was and is not thread-related, but behaviour-related and i like to give credit to the person who brought that up..

And regarding your 'Moeller-expertise'..I havent got the slightest problem admitting that i am wrong to people when i feel that i am wrong, but in this case i have the opinion that i am not..

When playing a normal one handed 16th groove on the hi-hat, the first of each 4 notes will allready be slightly accented a lot of times anyway..When accents are not allowed at all, i agree, Moeller is a bad idea..And again, i am only speaking about playing the hi-hat with the tip of the stick, not the shoulder/neck..

And i am also not saying that every drummer should always play Moeller when playing a fast 16th one-handed hi-hat pattern..

The only thing that i am saying, is that (low) Moeller is an option and that your overall statement that 'Moeller is not appropriate for use in quick one handed 16ths', to me completely makes no sense..
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:20 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Push pull stroke View Post
Before the BS gets too deep, letís get back to basicsó-you very much can use a very low version of Moeller to play this. It doesnít really look a lot like the full whip stroke, because itís a very subtle, small version of it. The way you GET there, though, is by practicing the really big, slow whip strokes.

I am messing around with a reverse version of this, inspired by Freddie Gruberís double stroke technique, where the first stroke is French grip, and the last one is German grip. Itís sort of a mirror or reverse of the Moeller, but itís the same idea, just in reverse.
This is ironic, given your username. I think we just define things a little differently here and I'll explain where I draw the line.

Moeller is an arcing whip with intentional looseness to maximize inertia and usually bounce as well. An "open" hand technique if you will. When properly utilizing Moeller with a goal to produce "extra" bounce hits, you'll end up closing your hand and using fingers to snap the stick back down. It kind of looks like a bigger version of push/pull when used this way.

Push/Pull, as I use the term is much more of a "closed" hand technique. Not to say I'm gripping the stick tightly, just a more closed hand position... Like I was just responding to Todd about, often I'll even close my first finger over the top of the stick a bit. Inertia isn't the goal like with a moeller/whip stroke, and I'm using more wrist and finger control to get the sounds.

I think it sounds to me like you consider push/pull to be pretty much moeller-y or something?

Getting one handed 16ths with a strong beat for me is about pushing the stick sort of forward for the first stroke and then as I pull my hand back I use some wrist action to grab the second stroke of the set, then repeat. It's not a whip, and doing a whip motion would be inefficient to say the least.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:21 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Push pull stroke View Post

I am messing around with a reverse version of this, inspired by Freddie Gruberís double stroke technique, where the first stroke is French grip, and the last one is German grip. Itís sort of a mirror or reverse of the Moeller, but itís the same idea, just in reverse.
Is there a video of this? From your description it sounds like a rotation of the wrist from inside to outside, if that makes sense. Like turning a key, I can't really put into words what I think you are saying.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:30 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by oldskoolsoul View Post
I know i should not, but ok, i reply..

That quote was and is not thread-related, but behaviour-related and i like to give credit to the person who brought that up..

And regarding your 'Moeller-expertise'..I havent got the slightest problem admitting that i am wrong to people when i feel that i am wrong, but in this case i have the opinion that i am not..

When playing a normal one handed 16th groove on the hi-hat, the first of each 4 notes will allready be slightly accented a lot of times anyway..When accents are not allowed at all, i agree, Moeller is a bad idea..And again, i am only speaking about playing the hi-hat with the tip of the stick, not the shoulder/neck..

And i am also not saying that every drummer should always play Moeller when playing a fast 16th one-handed hi-hat pattern..

The only thing that i am saying, is that (low) Moeller is an option and that your overall statement that 'Moeller is not appropriate for use in quick one handed 16ths', to me completely makes no sense..
I'm sorry, buddy. You're still a little confused on the term I think. Your own example video described a "low moeller" as being like an 8 to 12 inch arc.

Honestly, you don't want to focus on whip strokes for quick one handed work. It just doesn't make sense. It's possible we're just having a terminology issue or something, but it makes no sense to use a whip motion for fast 16ths on one hand. Push/pull type technique, sure, but that's not a whip/moeller motion even though they share similarities.

For the tip of the stick only with as little accent as possible, the best way to do that is finger control, see examples like James Gadson with Withers.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:34 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Is there a video of this? From your description it sounds like a rotation of the wrist from inside to outside, if that makes sense. Like turning a key, I can't really put into words what I think you are saying.
Reneadvert has posted videos where he is doing something almost exactly like it. Yes, itís like turning a key in a lock, or turning a doorknob, etc..

You just do three French grip taps followed by a German grip tap. You can do triples and doubles too, Freddie Gruberís double-stroke roll is done like this, somebody posted a video of Dave Weckl demonstrating the double stroke roll with this trick.
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:46 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
..see examples like James Gadson with Withers..

Ok, sorry, lol..

If we consider that a fast one-handed 16th hi-hat pattern (if you refer for example to 'Use Me'), then i said nothing at all in this thread..

But, if we speak tempo-wise for example about Michael McDonald with 'I Keep Forgetting', and up, then my opinion stays..

Will (low) Moeller always create the best sounding fast 16th hi-hat groove ever in every possible song..? No, ofcourse not, but with many songs of that tempo (and up), (low) Moeller stays a very valid option and the statement that (low) Moeller never is appropriate still makes no sense..
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:53 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Push pull stroke View Post
Reneadvert has posted videos where he is doing something almost exactly like it. Yes, itís like turning a key in a lock, or turning a doorknob, etc..

You just do three French grip taps followed by a German grip tap. You can do triples and doubles too, Freddie Gruberís double-stroke roll is done like this, somebody posted a video of Dave Weckl demonstrating the double stroke roll with this trick.
Interesting. I'm sitting here with the pad, and just tried it out. Feels weird, but that's to be expected. I can do the motion much faster without the stick. With the stick, if I watch my hands I lose it, but just feel what my hands are doing it's okay.

I did notice while watching my hands the stick seems to spin the opposite direction than when just using fingers. Left to right with fingers, right to left with this new twist.

Speed wise, do you notice any difference? This is a speed thread, of sorts, after all.
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Old 09-13-2018, 06:12 AM
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  #34  
Old 09-13-2018, 06:31 AM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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..comfortably at 100 bpm and over..

Thats what the thread-starter wrote and the tempo i was assuming we are discussing about here..

Not something like 76-77 bpm..
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:16 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

You have to do it a lot. I find it helps at first to lay your index finger on top of the stick-- that controls the rebound and helps you find the right technique. The Brazilian guys use a lot of finger technique.[/quote]

That's how I play one-handed 16th notes. Have a listen to Homer Steinweiss, of the Dap Kings, Lee Fields, Charles Bradfly, etc, he plays relaxed soul/funk 16th notes at a tempo when it really would be easier to play 8th notes. But the cool thing that he does is the 16th notes on the hi-hats with 8th note-feel ghost notes on the snare.
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:02 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Interesting. I'm sitting here with the pad, and just tried it out. Feels weird, but that's to be expected. I can do the motion much faster without the stick. With the stick, if I watch my hands I lose it, but just feel what my hands are doing it's okay.

I did notice while watching my hands the stick seems to spin the opposite direction than when just using fingers. Left to right with fingers, right to left with this new twist.

Speed wise, do you notice any difference? This is a speed thread, of sorts, after all.
Speed-wise in short bursts itís not a lot faster than just blasting it out. But weíre talking about being able to keep this up for the length of a song, or at least the length of a chorus of verse, and thatís where this technique shines. The wrist turn lets you rest your muscles, which gets the blood back into them and replenishes the nutrients, etc..
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Old 09-13-2018, 01:57 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

It's just practice and making it a priority.

Plenty of really good drummers who can't play those 16ths like Jeff. Apart from songs like that it's not the most common requirement and you can cheat on one or two song without the world going under. Time has to be put into that specifically like I'm sure Jeff did.
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:09 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

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Originally Posted by Odd-Arne Oseberg View Post
It's just practice and making it a priority.

Plenty of really good drummers who can't play those 16ths like Jeff. Apart from songs like that it's not the most common requirement and you can cheat on one or two song without the world going under. Time has to be put into that specifically like I'm sure Jeff did.
Agreed. I use speed as a way to test the quality of my technique, not as a goal for its own sake. Iíve changed hi-hat parts (and lots of other written parts) in musical theater percussion parts, to fit whatís actually playable for me at the time.
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:25 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

To get my 16th-note headspace right, I listen & íshed to this guy. I love his feel.
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Old 09-13-2018, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: 16th notes on Hi Hat

I like to watch videos showing something like this or some lick. They break it down and do it real slow-so you can see what they are doing. Then they speed it up-like voila it's the same-but generally when you break it down you realize oh hell no that isn't what they are doing. They don't tend to explain the faster as well-but it changes-it really has to.
We got a stick with a fulcrum and we give momentum (lots of ways to do that) and then take advantage of the inertia to let the stick do some of the work -you really have to get out of the way of the stick in some regard. Seems you can use your arm, wrist, fingers in all kinds of ways to achieve the same end. Whatever is easiest and works for you gets the job done. I can tap out patting 16th notes at 100 bpm pretty easily and last forever with my wrists patting my fingers on my lap (I use to do that with each hand driving for hours-tapping on steering wheel-my left hand can do it forever-I've started wondering is it a tremor LOL)-but that isn't the same as hitting something with a stick. The stick is in tandem with my hand so tapping with wrist like I practiced directly translate to a hit-but adding a stick well it's the stick hitting it now-so it's all about controlling the stick-which you need more than just wrist (one motor) to do that. It's great though cause you can do things with a stick that no way you could tap that out with your wrist.
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