Teaching with songs: moral issues

Hmmmm, I teach many youngsters and doubt it is my place to choose a moral ground for them at all. I am also a pastor and I know that there is a time and place for things. I do not preach in the drum class. Nor do I moralize. In that enviroment it is simply out of place. More than likely it was the parent who bought the album for the child. To then discuss the moral nature with the parent it rude and insulting as well as condescending.

Teach drums and leave morals out of it. If you wish to become a pastor I can point you in the right direction.
 
Some inappropriate music and or lyrics should be critiqued. As mature adult musicians and teachers we become very impressionable to younger students. A well rounded teacher should teach their craft and be a positive influence to the student or children. If you teach that profanity is not music or that some lyrics are negative in their message and advise against it , what's so wrong about that? I took my son to see one of the greatest guitar players of our time only to see this guy embarrass himself and the band every time he spoke into a microphone. This was the perfect opportunity to explain what bad addictions and immorality can do to the most gifted players and that inappropriate words with good beats can be very influential that spread a negative or immoral message. I realize were not perfect, however we can be responsible for our work and teach truth as well as music. The parents will thank you for doing a job they should be doing.
 
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Hmmmm, I teach many youngsters and doubt it is my place to choose a moral ground for them at all. I am also a pastor and I know that there is a time and place for things. I do not preach in the drum class. Nor do I moralize. In that enviroment it is simply out of place. More than likely it was the parent who bought the album for the child. To then discuss the moral nature with the parent it rude and insulting as well as condescending.

Teach drums and leave morals out of it. If you wish to become a pastor I can point you in the right direction.

So as a pastor, if your student wanted to learn some vulgar death metal tune, you'd listen to the song over and over again to learn it verbatim? Would you do your rehearsing in the church sanctuary?

I wouldn't advocate dictating morality to students, but I do think that it's our responsibility to DEMONSTRATE our own morality for the students.
 
I wouldn't advocate dictating morality to students, but I do think that it's our responsibility to DEMONSTRATE our own morality for the students.

I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. A music instructor's responsibility is to teach music. Where does anyone get off putting their own morals in there?
Now I've studied music and never in my experience was I at all encouraged or allowed to bring in a song and ask the teacher to show me how to play it. What sort of teacher allows that? I was there to learn and what the teacher said went, I could follow the teacher's program or I could leave and find another teacher.
Teachers teach. If I want to learn how to play a specific song I must first learn how to play, then I take what I've learned and teach myself how to play the song.
Keep your morality to yourself. If you're a good music instructor then these things shouldn't even come up in the first place.
And this really kills me: "Some inappropriate music and or lyrics should be critiqued." As a teacher how would "inappropriate music and or lyrics" even enter into it? You're the teacher, it's your program, you're in charge, right?
I dread to think of what's being taught to young music students these days if what I'm reading here is anything to go on.
 
It seems odd that so many people would jump all over him for having a moral dilemma?

What it comes down to is; you have an aversion to working with a young student on a song that is suggestive in nature. Your student is listening to this music whether you like it or not and will do so regardless of whether or not you use it as teaching material in lessons.

So, it's not about her, it's you.

If you're not comfortable with it and you refuse, then you may lose a student - that's your dilemma. Which is more important - keeping the student or standing on principle? As far as the parents, I doubt they'd find it as offensive as you do but I still wouldn't see the point of bringing it up to them. The most you'll probably get is a funny look.
 
Now I've studied music and never in my experience was I at all encouraged or allowed to bring in a song and ask the teacher to show me how to play it. What sort of teacher allows that? I was there to learn and what the teacher said went, I could follow the teacher's program or I could leave and find another teacher.
Teachers teach. If I want to learn how to play a specific song I must first learn how to play, then I take what I've learned and teach myself how to play the song.
Keep your morality to yourself. If you're a good music instructor then these things shouldn't even come up in the first place.

This is where I get hung up as well. I've never had a drum lesson where I was taught to play a specific song. I've had to dissect jazz tunes to better understand the role of a jazz drummer, but even that was usually transcribing trumpet lines or piano comping. What advantage comes from learning a specific song?

To me, teaching a specific song is along the same lines as "give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day." Shouldn't we be teaching wide-reaching techniques to allow a student to easily learn whatever suggestive tripe is on the radio? If the student wants to crank up music in their bedroom and play along, I'd encourage that. It has no place in a teaching studio, IMO.

I do still stand behind my comment that it is our responsibility to model moral, culturally responsible behavior for our students. Many students look up to their drum (or guitar or whatever) teacher more than their parents, especially in teen years. If we just say it's the parents' responsibility to teach morals so we can advocate whatever we want, we're being irresponsible.
 
You guys have never had a teacher that let you bring in songs to learn? Wow. That's amazing to me. I don't mean to imply that a teacher should let the student dictate what he or she learns...obviously the teacher should have a lesson plan, and stick to it in most cases. But if a student comes to me and says, "I need to learn this song for marching band (or jazz band, or my band)" from time to time, I feel that it's my job to sit and dissect it with them, help them learn it, and teach them from it (the techniques used, how to apply it to other songs, etc.

I mean, and I realize this is a way simplistic situation, but if you are currently working with your student on rock beats, and the kid comes in with a copy of "Kind Of Blue," and says, "I really want to learn how to play this tune on here, are you going to say, "No, we are learning rock now? You can start that in six months?" Because that seems really harsh to me, and also like something that could make the kid less passionate about learning the instrument.
 
I mean, and I realize this is a way simplistic situation, but if you are currently working with your student on rock beats, and the kid comes in with a copy of "Kind Of Blue," and says, "I really want to learn how to play this tune on here, are you going to say, "No, we are learning rock now? You can start that in six months?" Because that seems really harsh to me, and also like something that could make the kid less passionate about learning the instrument.

I find this to be a constant challenge with kids, and often if you don't let them do what they want, they leave. I had a kid a while back who was quite a good piano player, but he couldn't read. The first day he asked me if that note was a 'g', that's 'g' on the treble or 'g' clef. Then the next week he hadn't prepared the lesson, but comes in with a level five piece and insisted I teach it to him, which I did. "You see, this whole b section is based on a half diminished chord, so although there is an outline of functional harmony, all of the chords are defined by this half diminished chord." He didn't come to the next lesson. But not because I totally confused him. Because he realized that he couldn't play the piece and didn't want to show and and prove me right.
 
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Now I've studied music and never in my experience was I at all encouraged or allowed to bring in a song and ask the teacher to show me how to play it. What sort of teacher allows that?

What the h-?
Don't get me wrong jay, you're a good guy in my book but the implication you made there is not appreciated.

You guys have never had a teacher that let you bring in songs to learn? Wow. That's amazing to me.

I was about to say the same thing. I know "learning a song" in itself is pointless. But I usually choose songs that fit into my lesson plan, and sometimes adjust my lesson plan if a pupil is really motivated to learn a specific song because they like it. Remember: she's eleven. She wants to learn to play drums as good as she can, but she wants to have a good time while she's at it. It's how I learned to play as well. Playing along to songs is fun, and for a beginner it tests and develops their stamina (especially concentration-wise). And in the beginning there's always something to learn. You can go a long way with a song: getting the groove right, getting the song structure right, emphasizing dynamics, emphasizing technical difficulties... all of these are fun to do and can be a very valuable learning experience.
 
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You guys have never had a teacher that let you bring in songs to learn? Wow. That's amazing to me.

Nope. Never. Not with drum lessons- it's always been rudiments and permutations, always theoretical practice. Heck, I've come in and asked my teacher to show me how to do specific things and had my teacher say, "No, you already know how to do THAT. Let me teach you how to do something that you don't already know."

I liked that, though... if I had gotten my way, I wouldn't have learned the wide range of things that I know now. I'd know how to play rock fills that were already played and recorded on CDs.
 
Nope. Never. Not with drum lessons- it's always been rudiments and permutations, always theoretical practice. Heck, I've come in and asked my teacher to show me how to do specific things and had my teacher say, "No, you already know how to do THAT. Let me teach you how to do something that you don't already know."

I liked that, though... if I had gotten my way, I wouldn't have learned the wide range of things that I know now. I'd know how to play rock fills that were already played and recorded on CDs.

I'm not saying it's wrong by default, but I feel that playing a groove or a fill theoretically is not the same as playing it in a musical context.
Obviously, I don't teach by songs alone. I give her one-hour lessons (I know that's long), in which I generally spend the first 35 to 40 minutes working on rudiments, coordination exercises and such. The last 20 minutes or so are spent working on a song. That usually means she gets to practise the song three times, with me giving her advice and showing her how certain things are done in between.
 
I would hope that a grown man teaching my 11 year old the drums would tell me about the song she wants to learn if it had these lyrics. Then again - my 11 year old daughter would not be alone with a grown man no matter what!!!! Squash any potential problems before they take root.

IF YOU FEEL THAT IT IS MORALLY WRONG TELL THE PARENTS AND LET THEM MAKE THE DECISION. 11 YEAR OLD CHILDREN NEED TO BE TAUGHT BY THEIR PARENTS WHATS MORALLY RIGHT AND WRONG.

This will make it easy on you. Most parents would not want their 11 year old listening to these lyrics.

jason
 
I would like to know how many of the people posting here have children? Especially the poeple saying the lyrics are none of the teachers business - that teachers should just teach!!!

jason
 
Nope. Never. Not with drum lessons- it's always been rudiments and permutations, always theoretical practice. Heck, I've come in and asked my teacher to show me how to do specific things and had my teacher say, "No, you already know how to do THAT. Let me teach you how to do something that you don't already know."

I liked that, though... if I had gotten my way, I wouldn't have learned the wide range of things that I know now. I'd know how to play rock fills that were already played and recorded on CDs.

That's shocking to me. I have been taught by some amazing teachers (including guys who have instructed DCI world championship lines), and they have never had a problem showing me songs. Nor do I have a problem doing it with my students. It can't be a regular thing, and you're right, if it's a song the kid already knows how to do, I will say, "Ok, let's look at this quickly, you already know how to do this," and will just run over the application of what he's learned in respect to the song...but the idea of a teacher saying, "No, I won't teach you what you want to learn at all, you have to learn what I want you to learn" is pretty ridiculous to me.
 
Nope. Never. Not with drum lessons- it's always been rudiments and permutations, always theoretical practice. Heck, I've come in and asked my teacher to show me how to do specific things and had my teacher say, "No, you already know how to do THAT. Let me teach you how to do something that you don't already know."

I liked that, though... if I had gotten my way, I wouldn't have learned the wide range of things that I know now. I'd know how to play rock fills that were already played and recorded on CDs.

Learning repertoire is a major part of learning how to play a musical instrument. Just ask any world-class musician. It doesn't matter if we're talking about guys playing drumset at the Blue Note or a percussionist with the New York Philharmonic. Speak to any of these musicians, and you will find that learning repertoire has been a substantial part of their development. Teachers in conservatories, working with aspiring professional musicians, often assign "pieces" to the student. I would SEVERELY question any music teacher who did not work on actual music with their students!

By the way, if a student asks a teacher how to play something, then it is very obvious that the student does NOT "already know how to do that." Perhaps the student has worked on the techniques involved, but if they have to ask how to play it, then obviously they are not able to hear or execute the techniques in context. This is what happens when a teacher works on techniques without working on their application within songs.
 
Oh, I thought playing was just a matter of picking up some sticks and having a good "feel." :p
 
Teachers teach.
And this really kills me: "Some inappropriate music and or lyrics should be critiqued." As a teacher how would "inappropriate music and or lyrics" even enter into it? You're the teacher, it's your program, you're in charge, right?

Teachers also listen and evaluate. "The part that really kills you" entered into the teachers lesson by an 11 year old student who wanted to learn a song. Things like this happen now and then.
 
Teachers also listen and evaluate. "The part that really kills you" entered into the teachers lesson by an 11 year old student who wanted to learn a song. Things like this happen now and then.

You nailed it.

By the way, we recently held our twice-a-year drum recital. One of the students brought in a song to prepare that talked about killing and raping. It literally used those words in the lyrics. The student was an adult, so there was no parent to tell. I immediately nixed the song and said we needed to choose a different one unless a "clean" version of the song could be found. I was the one hosting the recital, and I was the one ultimately responsible for the material presented at the recital.

This is a rather extreme case, considering the extreme content of this particular song and considering the fact that a public presentation was also involved. Still, it demonstrates that choices of all kinds come up in the real-life process of being a teacher. Anyone who says it's all about which rudiment to do this week has never actually been a full-time instructor for any length of time.
 
Anyone who says it's all about which rudiment to do this week has never actually been a full-time instructor for any length of time.

A synopsis of my Life in Lessons

Fifth grade lessons (15 minute lessons twice a week)- rudiments and music reading.
Sixth grade lessons (15 minute lessons twice a week)- rudiments and music reading.
Junior high lessons (15 minute lessons once a week)- advanced rudiments

Didn't take lessons in high school- took guitar lessons even though I kept playing drums in school.

(In college I was a music education major, and my major instrument was electric bass, so take that into consideration)
2 years of college lessons- Jazz comping techniques, latin styles, some rudiments
1 semester of advanced college lessons- more latin, rhythmic permutations around the set, advanced rudiments on the set, advanced techniques with various concert percussion...

That means I had 3 public school educators, a grad student, and 2 professors who thought that rudiments were pretty important. And not ONCE did I ever learn any pop song from the radio. I can't see how it would have been anything more than a waste of time in my lessons. But hey, what do I know? I'm just a full-time educator. :)
 
A synopsis of my Life in Lessons

Fifth grade lessons (15 minute lessons twice a week)- rudiments and music reading.
Sixth grade lessons (15 minute lessons twice a week)- rudiments and music reading.
Junior high lessons (15 minute lessons once a week)- advanced rudiments

Didn't take lessons in high school- took guitar lessons even though I kept playing drums in school.

(In college I was a music education major, and my major instrument was electric bass, so take that into consideration)
2 years of college lessons- Jazz comping techniques, latin styles, some rudiments
1 semester of advanced college lessons- more latin, rhythmic permutations around the set, advanced rudiments on the set, advanced techniques with various concert percussion...

That means I had 3 public school educators, a grad student, and 2 professors who thought that rudiments were pretty important. And not ONCE did I ever learn any pop song from the radio. I can't see how it would have been anything more than a waste of time in my lessons.

Public school educators and professors do not equal private instructors. A private instructor is someone you go to beyond all of that.

Also, if you were being taught lessons by public school educators or professors, I'm going to guess that they were also in charge of the ensambles that you played in at that time (band, jazz band, etc). Especially as a music education major. Therefore, you might not have learned individual songs with the instructors in your private lessons, but they did work on you with all the songs that you were doing in band, jazz band, etc.
 
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