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  #1  
Old 03-18-2018, 07:50 PM
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Default Double stroke vs. double bounce?

I've watched a ton of videos tying to understand this topic, but I'm not really there yet. Lots of good stuff about how to get clean even doubles. I've been practicing 30-45 minutes per day for 6 weeks and seeing slow but steady improvement.

The thing I'm confused about is the difference between the rudiment that I'm practicing and the more relaxed sound I see/hear used in real musical situations. This is a program, not a person, but here's the machine gun sound at 140 bpm:

https://www.mikeslessons.com/gscribe...-------------|

I don't know if most guys can do "rudimental" doubles this fast (I can't), but if you did, it would not sound relaxed. Is it normal to revert to a controlled double bounce at this tempo to have a relaxed feel?

Where I'm at is that my controlled/rudimental double speed is improving significantly, but I'm not yet seeing how I hook that into the double bounce version I've long been using in grooves. I don't know if I'm currently being sloppy and need to replace my current approach with a more controlled approach, or if I just need to bridge the gap with a clean transition.
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Old 03-18-2018, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

That's totally doable as double strokes, without "bouncing." Takes time to work it up, with a focus on accurate double strokes, but the end result is more clean and open than a double bounce roll. Right now, I'm peaked at 152. I don't see a reason to push it beyond that, though, since the point of diminishing returns seems to be about 135ish...
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:06 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Originally Posted by caddywumpus View Post
That's totally doable as double strokes, without "bouncing." Takes time to work it up, with a focus on accurate double strokes, but the end result is more clean and open than a double bounce roll. Right now, I'm peaked at 152. I don't see a reason to push it beyond that, though, since the point of diminishing returns seems to be about 135ish...
Thanks for the reply. I've certainly seen videos of guys going that fast, and I'm continuing my work towards it. It sounds very intense though, not the relaxed feel you'd expect in many musical contexts. That's sort of the crux of my question. I wish had a good example of the relaxed double I'm talking about. I'll post a link if I find something.
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Check out Dave Weckl here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1BNRvPVGqY

The solo is full of doubles, but around right after 6:50 is an example of a fast relaxed double like I'm talking about. Doesn't sound like a machine gun or a drum corps thing.
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Old 03-18-2018, 08:41 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

His left hand technique and overall smooth control is just legendary.
I could watch his all day.

Thanks for that post Mastiff. Made my day.
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Old 03-19-2018, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
Check out Dave Weckl here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1BNRvPVGqY

The solo is full of doubles, but around right after 6:50 is an example of a fast relaxed double like I'm talking about. Doesn't sound like a machine gun or a drum corps thing.
As you may know, Weckl used a less standard approach to double strokes, which involves a wrist rotation. He demonstrates it here:

https://youtu.be/rJD-L-tyvyE

So that works for him, but I'm not sure you'd be willing to get into a new technique now.

By the way, I'm curious about the OP's and others' routine for doubles. What's your pet exercise?? :)
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Old 03-19-2018, 11:42 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Try this one. It addresses precisely this: https://youtu.be/d2eVOyKvJPg
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Old 03-19-2018, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
Try this one. It addresses precisely this: https://youtu.be/d2eVOyKvJPg
He says it all in the first few minutes. “Can your technique get you where you need to be?” Double bounce is way easier than double stroke, a technique I relied on for years. I then had to increase my double tempo, and worse triplet tempo and just couldn’t get there. My strokes were uneven and I was dropping sticks constantly.

One thing I also noticed while trying to pick up my “bounce” speed is how much side to side movement my sticks had. It’s why I’d lose a stick in the process. Changing to a real double stroke or triplet roll instead of a bounce took some time and is still taking time, but I have a ton more control than I ever have. Also noticed the wear on my heads have narrowed and far less All over the drum. It shows up in everything. Well worth investing the time into.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:09 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Well, the guy in the video did not go up to 140 bpm in his demo. Maybe he can, but I guess what I keep coming back to is getting a relaxed, laid back feel vs. the rudimental, machine like sound everyone is going for in these videos. I brought up the Weckl video not because of his technique specifically, but because he was going fast and it still sounded relaxed, not like a drum corps or a machine gun.

At low tempo, bouncing sounds awful, especially on a pad, but up above 120 bpm or so, I'm not sure you can hear the difference, especially on a snare. Plus, I'm skeptical that many non-Jojos can maintain their controlled technique up in the 130+ range. You can do a controlled double bounce at that speed all day long.

But I'm here to learn, since I'm still working through this.
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Old 03-19-2018, 05:25 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
Well, the guy in the video did not go up to 140 bpm in his demo. Maybe he can, but I guess what I keep coming back to is getting a relaxed, laid back feel vs. the rudimental, machine like sound everyone is going for in these videos. I brought up the Weckl video not because of his technique specifically, but because he was going fast and it still sounded relaxed, not like a drum corps or a machine gun.
The "throw-catch" method that Jonathan teaches is EXACTLY what you need, and it also happens to be the technique that Weckl is using in the video you posted. It's just that Weckl is doing a subtler version of the same technique. At faster speeds, the wrist and finger movements become smaller and quicker. But, they are still the same movements.

If you want smooth doubles like Weckl, you're going to have to learn to throw the first stroke with your hand, and then "snap" the second stroke with your fingers, as Jonathan has demonstrated. Bill Bachman also demonstrates this technique in his DVD, as does Jojo Mayer in his. Jonathan isn't the first to demo it, but he's been nice enough to put a great video up for free. Take advantage!

(If you want to see Jonathan play smooth doubles at 140 bpm (which we're all certain he can, btw), then PAY HIM for a lesson.)
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Yeah, I'm doing a technique like that and can do even doubles, I just gas out around 100 bpm, if that. I'm putting a lot of practice time on it, so maybe it'll all just come together after a while. So far I haven't seen the way to bridge from the demonstrated rudiment to a laid back sound you'd use in a groove.
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Is this what you mean? Try 1:30 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiGcteLM3w8

P.S. thanks for the kind words brentcn!
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Originally Posted by Mighty_Joker View Post
Is this what you mean? Try 1:30 in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiGcteLM3w8

P.S. thanks for the kind words brentcn!
Yeah, relaxed feel not just there but small sections of doubles throughout. Same technique as the rudiment, just quieter? Or subtly different technique?
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Yeah, relaxed feel not just there but small sections of doubles throughout. Same technique as the rudiment, just quieter? Or subtly different technique?
It's definitely the same techniques, just on a smaller scale. The technique I'm demonstrating in the first video on the pad is "the" technique I use for doubles, and you're right, the demonstration is more of the drum corp. "machine gun" style, but I utilise the same motions and methods for all of my doubles. What I'm playing in the live video is the same thing, but with sensibly sized sticks on a snare drum, with some context and dynamics.

Incidentally, when you're talking about 140bpm, are you talking 32nd notes? Good luck! Wow.

Edit: Let me clarify "smaller scale". When you are really comfortable with a technique, you can shrink it. This is true for anything, not just drumming. Essentially, the brain can shave off any unnecessary motion, which essentially speeds you up. You're getting more efficient at performing the action. When that happens, you can apply dynamics relatively easily. I think in that video I'm doing something of a crescendo, I'm just starting that technique "small", and then growing it (raising the stick heights, performing the motion "bigger") as I need to.
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
Yeah, I'm doing a technique like that and can do even doubles, I just gas out around 100 bpm, if that. I'm putting a lot of practice time on it, so maybe it'll all just come together after a while. So far I haven't seen the way to bridge from the demonstrated rudiment to a laid back sound you'd use in a groove.
Please elaborate on "100 bpm". How many notes are you trying to play per beat? Because, playing 16ths, when the quarter note = 140, is pretty fast. You're going to be bouncing the doubles, and that's okay. As you go from medium to fast, a double stroke roll leans more on just bouncing the stick, rather than trying to snap the second stroke.

But what you shouldn't do is rely solely on rebound at slow to medium tempos. When the tempo and dynamic level permit, engage your fingers and snap that second stroke.
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Thanks. I'll keep working toward that.

140 bpm is moderately fast to fast rock in my book. The beat is the quarter, each of the doubles would be a 32nd. If you click the link it my initial post you can hear it so we're all on the same page. To my ear, it sounds superficially similar to a buzz roll at that tempo (when relaxed, not the link), but each note is still discernible.

The trick from my perspective is for it not only to sound relaxed, but feel relaxed as I play. With the bounce/rebound reliant approach I can start with 16th singles and just sort of loosen my grip and control the pressure at the fulcrum to make the doubles happen. The muscles don't even have to twitch at the 32nd note rate really. Things are getting more relaxed with the "correct" way, as I practice... slow and steady.

To answer the other question above, I've been using Stephen Taylor's "30 Days to Better Doubles" exercises. 30 days have passed, so I'm cherry picking the ones I like best from it at this point. There are something like a dozen exercises in there. A common thread is accenting the second note of the double - to avoid getting too reliant on rebound ;).
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Old 03-19-2018, 06:38 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
Thanks. I'll keep working toward that.

140 bpm is moderately fast to fast rock in my book. The beat is the quarter, each of the doubles would be a 32nd. If you click the link it my initial post you can hear it so we're all on the same page. To my ear, it sounds superficially similar to a buzz roll at that tempo (when relaxed, not the link), but each note is still discernible.

Ok I just checked out your link - that's fast. Honestly I think most people would struggle, not just you and me (I certainly would. 32nd notes at 140 is pretty out there). It's doable, but your'e right, it's probably going to start feeling more like a buzz at that stage.
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Old 03-20-2018, 01:09 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Mastiff, sixteenth note double strokes are very fast at 140 BPM. It is doable and you can certainly keep practicing them. However, for me in musical contexts that I am used to (nothing extreme), it is not really practical to play them for the duration in your example (as a 17-stroke roll). I will use them in shorter durations, maybe as 5-stroke rolls as embellishments on the hi-hat or on the snare drum leading into a fill. At the speed you posted, for longer phrases, I am more likely to use double strokes at the eighth note triplet subdivision, and this becomes my new "fast" subdivision. This way, I still sound "fast", but I can remain relaxed and not have to worry about forcing a bunch of stuff to come out near the limit of what I can physically do (nothing wrong with pushing yourself, though, depending on context). Good luck!
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Old 03-20-2018, 07:24 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Hi, I'm wondering what is meant by double stroke vs double bounce. My drum teacher wasn't sure either. Isn't a double stroke always bounced by definition? I.e. double hit per one stroke thus the second hit is a bounce + finger snap?
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Old 03-20-2018, 11:18 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Mastiff, sixteenth note double strokes are very fast at 140 BPM. It is doable and you can certainly keep practicing them. However, for me in musical contexts that I am used to (nothing extreme), it is not really practical to play them for the duration in your example (as a 17-stroke roll). I will use them in shorter durations, maybe as 5-stroke rolls as embellishments on the hi-hat or on the snare drum leading into a fill. At the speed you posted, for longer phrases, I am more likely to use double strokes at the eighth note triplet subdivision, and this becomes my new "fast" subdivision. This way, I still sound "fast", but I can remain relaxed and not have to worry about forcing a bunch of stuff to come out near the limit of what I can physically do (nothing wrong with pushing yourself, though, depending on context). Good luck!
I agree with what you say, but he is talking about 32nd notes, according to the link in his first post.
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Old 03-20-2018, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

I am also talking about 32nd notes - sorry if I explained it incorrectly. I was describing them the way I am used to seeing them notated - as 16ths with slashes to split the subdivision. But yes - 32nds.
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Old 03-20-2018, 04:28 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Hi, I'm wondering what is meant by double stroke vs double bounce. My drum teacher wasn't sure either. Isn't a double stroke always bounced by definition? I.e. double hit per one stroke thus the second hit is a bounce + finger snap?
What I meant by "double bounce" was giving up on the finger snap part at fast tempo. My version is similar to a buzz, except that the bounce is controlled and stopped at two hits by using pressure at the fulcrum. To be clear, I was only suggesting that this might come in to play at high tempo, not that it's a replacement for a real double stroke.

Personally, my plan is to keep working on my good double stroke technique, and I think it will naturally morph into the "bounce" version when the tempo reaches a certain point.
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Old 03-20-2018, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

You never have to bounce and your fingers never leave the stick to do an open roll or any fast double. The finger snap thing is dubious to me-- I'm sure there are people who do something with it, I've only seen a lot of students trying to do it and failing to ever make it up to actual roll speed.
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Old 03-20-2018, 05:24 PM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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You never have to bounce and your fingers never leave the stick to do an open roll or any fast double. The finger snap thing is dubious to me-- I'm sure there are people who do something with it, I've only seen a lot of students trying to do it and failing to ever make it up to actual roll speed.
Well, you have to do something to have power on the second stroke. Call it what you want, but the techniques I've seen always involve a bit of wrist for the first stroke and then fingers to achieve the second stroke. Can you elaborate on your alternative?
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:06 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Sure. I developed a killing open roll in less than a year when I was 15, from doing drum corps. The exercise we used to develop it was to play a shuffle rhythm, single handed, slow to fast, ~7-10 minutes per hand-- ending about as fast as you could move your arm. No stopping for getting tired, no stopping because the quality of the doubles went to hell. The technique at the slow end was two wrist strokes, with a little arm lift on the rebound of the second note of the double. Maybe your fingers would ride the stick at the slower tempos; at faster tempos you would close your hand up, and the stroke was mostly arm. You could do the same thing and end up with a mostly wrist stroke, though-- a single wrist movement playing a double stroke. I don't know what my maximum speed was, but I could play powerful controlled 32nd note doubles through a full range of normal performance tempos.

The Fred Sanford exercise kicking around the internet, which I learned from Sanford himself, is also helpful to learn. And maybe Three Camps.
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:09 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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You never have to bounce and your fingers never leave the stick to do an open roll or any fast double. The finger snap thing is dubious to me-- I'm sure there are people who do something with it, I've only seen a lot of students trying to do it and failing to ever make it up to actual roll speed.
I'm with you on fingers never leaving the stick. They sort of follow the stick and control it. The stick will always bounce, otherwise it would just stop on the head like a magnet or else utilize a second stroke such as one might do on a pillow. And I'm pretty sure nobody's doing 1040 full strokes per minute doubles on a pillow. When I said finger snap I mean the fingers control the second hit. Otherwise the stick would just bounce as far as it pleased and wait for gravity to bring it back down which would be way to slow and uncontrollable.

I'm curious about this whole double bounce idea though... I assume the fingers would still be required to bring down the second stroke, but maybe its more a constant pressure on the stick tuned to the tempo of the doubles? Like... Instead of riding the stick with the fingers and pulling out the second hit, keep a certain pressure? I'm still improving my speed but I can't do more than a few beats (like 17 stroke roll) over around 90 bpm quarters. In wondering if trying not to keep so much control over the strokes would improve speed or just turn into a big fat mess
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:17 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Aaron: I'm absolutely not recommending the bounce thing because I don't feel qualified to send you down what might be a dead end. But, if you've done a buzz roll, or tried to, you know you don't control each stroke. For the buzz, you do at least 3-4 bounces per stroke and overlap per hand to get the sound. If you control pressure on the fulcrum though, you can stop it at two and have control over the time between hits. What you don't have good/any control over is the relative power between the hits, which is why it would certainly sound sloppy at slow tempo where this would be obvious.

Todd, can you explain what you mean by closing your hand up? That sounds like gripping the stick harder, is that really what you mean?
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:23 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

The main thing is that you have to actually do it. I just gave you more verbal instruction than I ever got on it-- of course I did get to see the instructor do it as well.
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:25 AM
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Todd, can you explain what you mean by closing your hand up? That sounds like gripping the stick harder, is that really what you mean?
Not harder, just a more closed grip-- keeping the stick closer to your palm. You can do that in a relaxed way. There's some pressure involved.
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:54 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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...I'm pretty sure nobody's doing 1040 full strokes per minute doubles on a pillow. ..
32nds at 1/4 = 140 is 1120 per minute...
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:17 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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32nds at 1/4 = 140 is 1120 per minute...
The guys winning the WFD are doing singles even faster than this. Surely it is possible to do doubles around that speed with totally controlled strokes, no bounce. Not very loud, of course...
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:28 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

* I was just correcting the number put by the other poster in my previous message.



If you want to see MY MOTION (DOUBLES, NO BOUNCE) playing a bit over that speed, go here:

I´M PLAYING WILCOXON SOLO 19 at DOTTED QUARTER = 93. This means: 32nd note = 1152 bpm (all over, you can hear them better at 0:34 of the file and after)

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiZ06ti7e2U
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:37 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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* I was just correcting the number put by the other poster in my previous message.



If you want to see MY MOTION (DOUBLES, NO BOUNCE) playing a bit over that speed, go here:

I´M PLAYING this WILCOXON SOLO at DOTTED QUARTER = 93. This means: 32nd note = 1152 bpm (all over, you can hear them better at 0:34 of the file and after)

VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiZ06ti7e2U
Dotted quarter 32nds at 93 is 1116 per minute, slightly less than quarter 32nds at 140. (12/32 = 3/8, 12x93=1116)
And that pad is hella bouncy.
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Old 03-21-2018, 05:20 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Dotted quarter 32nds at 93 is 1116 per minute, slightly less than quarter 32nds at 140. (12/32 = 3/8, 12x93=1116)
And that pad is hella bouncy.

Yes you are right, to resume:

the solo I posted is 1116 bpm - VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiZ06ti7e2U

the speed of the thread 1120 bpm

the difference is 4 strokes
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Old 03-21-2018, 06:44 AM
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Lot's of folks can roll easily with BPM at 132 and above.

Prime example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKmGk_Oasjk
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  #36  
Old 03-21-2018, 01:44 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

1100 BPM? What is this WFD? hahaha Lets go back to counting things in 16th notes like 90% of the "speed related" drumming is to not be talking 3 different speeds here.

Don't bounce... It's called a double stroke.. Hit every note and keep speeding up over time... Add 1 bpm every day, and spend a TON of time on this... Like 20-30 minutes a day. Move the accents to the second note of the doubles, do left hand lead etc.

RRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLL
LLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRR
I also like to work on inverted doing the samue stuff to help build my left.

RLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRR
LRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLLRRLL


When you first start just make sure the notes are spaced evenly. I do singles RLRLRLRLRLRL then doubles RRLLRRLLRRLL and make sure they sound the same, same volume, same spacing.. They need to sound the exact same.. You may have to start at 100BPM which is painfully slow but it will help you gain control. The key is to stay relaxed and be able to do it for long periods.. like 5-10 minutes without a break.
As you speed up you will get to a point where 1BPM makes a large difference and you fall apart sooner. getting to 220+ 16th notes hitting every note is possible for anyone. but it takes time..
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  #37  
Old 03-21-2018, 04:30 PM
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Mastiff Mastiff is offline
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgm554 View Post
Lot's of folks can roll easily with BPM at 132 and above.

Prime example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKmGk_Oasjk
Yup, but what technique is in use at the faster tempos? I followed several links to other videos of that same solo, and it looks to me like the fingers stop participating above a certain tempo (the hand becomes still), which makes me think it becomes a pure rebound stroke.
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  #38  
Old 03-21-2018, 07:14 PM
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MrPockets MrPockets is online now
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

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Originally Posted by Mastiff View Post
Yup, but what technique is in use at the faster tempos? I followed several links to other videos of that same solo, and it looks to me like the fingers stop participating above a certain tempo (the hand becomes still), which makes me think it becomes a pure rebound stroke.
I would say it is just adding finger control. Some people like Thomas Lang claim they use all wrists and I would guess you can build wrist speed that fast.

I am a fan of the open/close or push/pull technique.
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  #39  
Old Today, 06:21 AM
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Mastiff Mastiff is offline
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

Came across this old Weckl video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJD-L-tyvyE

The way he described his previous technique, with a "choked" stick, is the "double bounce" thing I was trying to describe as far as I can tell. His new technique is what I see everyone advocate now, and the one I find harder to go fast with.

Anyway, I thought the choked version was really bad form, but apparently Weckl sounded awesome with it for years before moving on the push/pull or drop/grab or whatever you call it.
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  #40  
Old Today, 07:32 AM
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trickg trickg is offline
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Default Re: Double stroke vs. double bounce?

So from my perspective, based on some of the things I learned from my snare drummer friends while I was stationed as bugler with the Old Guard Fife & Drum Corps, is that past a certain tempo, you're controlling the bounce - you refine it (and they have it pretty danged refined) but you don't actually stick it past certain tempos. Here's an example of some of their drumming and you'll hear a lot of roll figures throughout.

(Note: For those who may think that this isn't "real" snare drumming, i.e. DCI drum corps, many of these drummers came out of DCI corps.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49FHSatocGE
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