using your body to keep time - legitimate?

i had a talk with my teacher about this he thinks time has to be in your head and you shouldnt have to use something physical to keep time even in long pauses in the song such as tapping a limb. he thinks its a bad habbit but i think it can help immensely and my time is not good enough to handle without it at some parts
thoughts?

Hi
Several thoughts regarding this issue:
1. Your teacher is correct given the fact that's it's a waste of energy and the
may throw your time off.
2. Counting out loud and strong concentration is the way to go.
3. Having stated the above...I find that it is real important to keep visual and musical time for the whole band...ie: clicking the Hi Hat on 2 and 4 during a musical break helps keeps the whole band in time during a live performance. Denis

counting out loud is "forbidden" too according to what he says. anything "physical" like nodding head slightly etc. according to him concentration is the only way

That sounds like horrible advice. 95 percent of the drummers I see move their bodies in some way to the music. In Indian music it is strongly encouraged... Maybe he means you should be feeling the beat internally, but to consciously restrict yourself from moving seems unnatural to me. Here's a few folks who are obviously moving in time with what they are playing....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sytTr6kV5Dw (I can't imagine him not moving to this groove)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFtgkuEyXQY (works for him)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vziah0AS5xA&feature=related (uh... hi-hat foot anyone?)

Come to think of it, all we are doing when playing drums is moving our bodies in time..I really don't understand this advice.

Some percussionists swear by this technique. In fact Glen Velez says that moving his body to the beat has helped his drumming. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTaehZN2xL4&feature=related

This may be one of those techniques that may work for one person, but not another. When I play the kit, I am a bit rigid; however, on the congos, djembe, shekere, etc. I move with the music.

Good luck sorting this out.

GJS

i look a bit like keith carlock when i play, quite weird looking. But i'm skinny, so i just look fidgity and not at all cool like steve jordan. But it's something i can't change, if i get into a good groove i really expell a lot body energy by doing body movements. I also do a lot of shruging my shoulders independantly up and down by kind of using my hips, like a dance!

but it does help although i look like an idiot, it help me to express my self, so do my constapation faces!

I have always counted to my self, but my background is school band and orchestra and to count out loud, or tap your feet when there is a quiet passage is a no-no. I'm not sure what your teachers refernce is but I see nothng wrong with a slight tap to keep time. One thing that is the worst is to see fifity kids mouthing the time to themselves. Looks like fish in an aqaurium.

Playing devil's advocate on your teacher's behalf, I was once told by a great drummer that time kind of starts out from the tip of your right stick and the more comfortable you get with it, it moves to the center of your body. Maybe he meant 'internalize' it insead of actually restricting your body movement.

Only the drum corps does that!

Hedon said:

counting out loud is "forbidden" too according to what he says. anything "physical" like nodding head slightly etc. according to him concentration is the only way

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I can't count the number of times I've watched a top-flight symphony orchestra and seen feet tapping, mouthed counting and fingers keeping track of bars of rests. Watch other kinds of musicians and you're sure to see the same thing - i.e. feet tapping, nodding, dancing, etc. Anyone who's watched Steve Gadd play can plainly see the time and feel in his body. Surely in certain circumstances it is good to be discrete about these things, but there's no law against them.

Now, if you're teacher is simply trying to get you to strengthen your internal sense of time, that's one thing, and probably legitimate. But to suggest that it is "forbidden" suggests that a whole lot of very, very good musicians are engaging in the taboo, and I think that's absurd.

Don't trust a drummer that can't dance!

internalize the time into as many parts of your body as you can. Mangini says the count is most important, as he believes that it is the hardest to knock out of time, but the more of your body you separate and program the time into, the better the results. Learn as many different ways as you can is my approach I suppose.

For long times of rest, I would say it looks weird if you move in your seat too much.

When playing however, tapping the left foot and bobbing doesn't really distract from your performance.

Personally, I think if you make weird faces and move you body a lot in an awkward fashion, that is a little too much.

I use my body to keep time all the time. sometimes during long intros I don't really pay attention to the time until it's time for me to come in and 1 or 2 measures before my pickup fill I will start bobbing my head in time.

I also keep time in short breaks with a silent tap of my heel on the hi-hat (i'm usually holding the hats closed toe up and i just bounce my heel in time through the break).

It is definatley a legitimate technique.

I even sometimes use my head bob as a 5th part in independence exercises.

Hedon said:

i had a talk with my teacher about this he thinks time has to be in your head and you shouldnt have to use something physical to keep time even in long pauses in the song such as tapping a limb. he thinks its a bad habbit but i think it can help immensely and my time is not good enough to handle without it at some parts
thoughts?

Click to expand...

I think to give your teacher his credit I think he may just wish to ensure that you do not RELY on physical or audible count.

We have all seen the pros with the religious left foot on the hats splashing and trapping away, it adds continuity to fills and songs, but then that could be said to be part of the music.

Out loud counting: not a great habit a bit un-pro and I find distracts from a relaxed performance. Having said that I often will consciously count on big band charts and in the pit just to make sure that i get the stabs in spot on, as, sometimes i will relax too much and play what i THINK is meant to be on the page not what actually is.

Physical movment: when really laying down some tasty grooves, if you not moving your not playing it properly (to me), you've got to get right in to it to really lay it out. You can bob your whole body or bounce you left (hats) heal as I often do. BUT BUT BUT the movement should not rule the beat, it is a by-product of it.
In Jazz however, strict Jazz, the ideal is to have a band full of musicians who have a beautifully internalised swing and tempo. The continuous hi hat or ride is not necessary in the top jazz circles. The drummer is not the time keeper he is another instrument who can form part of the rhymth section.

It is here in hardcore Jazz and in classical where the tapping and counting is really not 'appropriate'.

As with everything there is never a simple answer. Therefore i would say one thing (if i had to say one thing): Do what ever you feel to produce the music that is the top priority but do not RELY on counting or tapping. Essentially it should be internal.

OK - the only frowning on physical movements for timekeeping has been in classical environments - (I remember being chastised for it numerous times in Wind Ensemble in collage).

As for out loud counting - well obviously a no no seeing as it makes noise.

BUT... sub vocal counting, or counting to yourself is something you ALWAYS want to be able to rely - in all styles of playing (including jazz - even "strict jazz").

The way you internalize counting - is by counting so much that you no longer pay much attention to yourself doing it. It's still going on inside - you're just not thinking about it. But then when you need it, there it is... already going.

David

I think he meant that eventually you will be able to feel the time rather then have to count it...

But when there are long passages with no drums I always tap my foot nuff said

dcrigger said:

BUT... sub vocal counting, or counting to yourself is something you ALWAYS want to be able to rely - in all styles of playing (including jazz - even "strict jazz").

The way you internalize counting - is by counting so much that you no longer pay much attention to yourself doing it. It's still going on inside - you're just not thinking about it. But then when you need it, there it is... already going.

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If a drummer sub-counts and nobody can hear, does it make a sound?

No, seriously. It would be interesting to know what, if any, sound is in our heads when we count internally.

I don't internalise. I either quietly tap my head, bounce my body slightly on the throne or bob my head. We're not top-liners so it helps me and gives the band a visual cue.

It would interesting to know if those who internalise are "hearing" a pulse. Is it the sound of your metronome? An internal humming grunt?

Pollyanna said:

It would interesting to know if those who internalise are "hearing" a pulse. Is it the sound of your metronome? An internal humming grunt?

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I hum like crazy, it is a constant tone in my head. Sometimes you can actually hear me hum, I really need to stop that :S.

My drum teacher used to hit me on the shoulder with a stick if I didn't mark time with my foot when we were working together on pads. He also told me to always count. Count in your head, Count under your breath, But COUNT! Count in any manor that keeps you in time. That included using your body as a metronome if you had to.
Ever watch Ray Charles play? Stevie Wonder? These men, were, and are blind of corse. Blind people use their other senses to make up for the missing one. The both animate their body to keep time. They can't see, so they sense and feel the music with their body.

Sure it's legitimate. But if you know what's good for you then you will develop that internal sense of time and pulse. Why move and expend energy when it isn't even necessary? Oh. That's right. Drummers must exaggerate keeping the beat in order to keep the spotlight on them. Ha shame on me! I guess it is natural for most folks to sway or bounce a foot or something of that nature. Keeping it in your head is even more impressive than trying to impress people with body language behind the kit.