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  #41  
Old 04-30-2017, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Fast...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Watso View Post
Okay, this is getting weird.

"Jazz tempos" are not any faster, slower, or different from any other tempo.
I suppose it's the fact that in jazz you play differently. Swing comping, walking
bass and soloing in triplets or 16ths feel quite medium/slow at around 160 bmp,
and no jazz player would call that fast. Meanwhile a funk tune at 160 bmp is
unarguably quite fast in its perception, right?
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  #42  
Old 04-30-2017, 07:03 PM
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Default Re: Fast...

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Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Seems like a lot of confusion with Beats per Minute/ notes per minute/strokes per minute, etc. It also seems we have chased the OP away.
I guess the question is whether "beat" is used as a term for "quarter note", or just "stroke/note".
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  #43  
Old 04-30-2017, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Fast...

I'm thinking if one does doubles, that could be one stroke, arm or hand stroke and yet two taps, or notes.
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  #44  
Old 04-30-2017, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Fast...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
I suppose it's the fact that in jazz you play differently. Swing comping, walking
bass and soloing in triplets or 16ths feel quite medium/slow at around 160 bmp,
and no jazz player would call that fast. Meanwhile a funk tune at 160 bmp is
unarguably quite fast in its perception, right?
I could argue quite easily that a funk or rock tune could be written and played as laid back with a stated bpm of 160. Quick example off the top of my head is "sweater song" by weezer. Not known as a "fast" song at all, clocks in right around 160 and has a cool half-time feel around that 160 to make it one of the more popular songs of it's decade.
https://www.cs.ubc.ca/~davet/music/t...___STD-05.html

And then on the same coin, with a completely different fast blues rock feel, La Grange by ZZtop is also in the 160ish tempo range.
https://www.cs.ubc.ca/~davet/music/t...RK_095-03.html

I know we both understand how time and tempo works, so I'm not going to push this anymore. I still say this was one of the dumbest arguments I've seen on here. There's not really any such thing as a "jazz tempo" although we might use such a phrase in passing to convey a certain feeling, a jazz song at 160 might feel fast, or it might be written to feel slow and laid back.
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  #45  
Old 04-30-2017, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Fast...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
I guess the question is whether "beat" is used as a term for "quarter note", or just "stroke/note".
If the top of the page says "quarter note = Xbpm" then that is the beat, if it says otherwise, the beat might be based around an 8th note feel or what have you. It's an arbitrary designation selected by the person writing the music, based on how they feel it. Most commonly in western music the beat will be 1/4 note based, but not always.

A note for us drummers is simply one strike of something, stroke is an improper term as grunters dad pointed out, that could be misinterpreted easily.
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  #46  
Old 04-30-2017, 08:16 PM
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Default Re: Fast...

The Weezer song is not a good example to me, because I don't think it's your
typical cut time song you'd notate at 160 but half time felt.

I'm thinking I Got Money for example.
Anyway, I really don't think one can seriously argue backbeat driven funk, rock,
and pop music at around 160 isn't fast, while a swing tune in 160 isn't. Right?

Beat: So do you disagree with me or what? I don't really understand your
comment, as I doesn't say much other than what I said. Except that I don't
think it's too arbitrary, but either one or the other. And I meant in this
discussion specifically, not in general: In some posts a beat is the quarter note
(as in 180 bpm), or the beat is every note hit on the drum.
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  #47  
Old 04-30-2017, 08:43 PM
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Default Re: Fast...

Drummers are the only musicians who beat their instruments so maybe we need to substitute the word strike instead. In 4/4 time, we strike the quarter note 4 times per measure, once strike per note. It would be , we beat the drum 4 times per measure, or one beat per beat, but that is way to confusing.
Strike is the new Beat.. 16th notes, 64 strikes per measure in 4/4 time. Strike, strike strike.
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  #48  
Old 04-30-2017, 11:28 PM
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Default Re: Fast...

I think in general it's widely accepted that the word beat means quarter note.
It's just in discussions like this certain misunderstandings seem to appear fast.
Fast :).
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  #49  
Old 05-01-2017, 03:22 AM
iwearnohats iwearnohats is offline
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Default Re: Fast...

The tempo marking for a piece of music will generally follow the time signature, or the perceived pulse of the music.

So for example, 6/8 is commonly notated with a dotted quarter note as the time signature is most often counted "1 and a 2 and a".

Normally music in 4/4 will have quarter note = (tempo). If you have a change in time signature in the music there will not normally be a matching tempo marking - you are expected to maintain the same tempo and simply adjust to match the new time signature's note count.

Generally when drummers are talking about BPM it's usually accepted that we're talking about BPM = 1/4 notes. So if I say "This song is 200bpm" then I mean "This song has a tempo of 1/4 note = 200".

To be honest, I don't even remember where I got the BPM thing from. I've been using it for years, but I also have a lot of musical theory knowledge otherwise - so who knows?
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  #50  
Old 05-01-2017, 05:42 AM
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Default Re: Fast...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNTERSDAD View Post
Drummers are the only musicians who beat their instruments so maybe we need to substitute the word strike instead. In 4/4 time, we strike the quarter note 4 times per measure, once strike per note. It would be , we beat the drum 4 times per measure, or one beat per beat, but that is way to confusing.
Strike is the new Beat.. 16th notes, 64 strikes per measure in 4/4 time. Strike, strike strike.
I wonder if anyone at Zildjian is reading this. 14" New Strikes anyone?
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  #51  
Old 05-01-2017, 06:21 AM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: Fast...

I like the car analogy.

"Woah, that car is fast"

How fast? Who cares, it's fast.

I don't relate it to a tempo. If someone says play a fast punk beat. I play a ripper. I don't know how many bpm, I just play really fast.

If I told you to drive me across town fast. I mean step on it. I didn't give you a speed. or say how to get there.

Fast is also relative to genera. It's a feeling.. A fast balad is still gonna be a feel pretty slow to me as I am a metal guy.... A fast jazz song I probibly can't play. And fast deathmetal which I play is basically playing as fast as I can doing "fast double kick.

I guess the only thing I would say is "fast double kick" Is most likely 16th notes in 4/4 time at 225 + BPM.

If you listen to a genera of music long enough you kindof realize what songs within that genera are fast. But as far as just drumming, something can be faster or slower. But that doesn't mean it is slow or fast. Someone may be faster than me. But does that make me slow or them fast?
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  #52  
Old 05-01-2017, 06:38 AM
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Default Re: Fast...

A car going 40 mph through a neighborhood is a reckless speed demon, where on the freeway they're slower than a glacier.
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  #53  
Old 05-01-2017, 03:43 PM
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Default Re: Fast...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swiss Matthias View Post
The Weezer song is not a good example to me, because I don't think it's your
typical cut time song you'd notate at 160 but half time felt.
I wasn't paying that much attention, it was the first one that caught my eye where the database said 160 and I remembered the half time feel of the song from the drum perspective.

Quote:
I'm thinking I Got Money for example.
Anyway, I really don't think one can seriously argue backbeat driven funk, rock,
and pop music at around 160 isn't fast, while a swing tune in 160 isn't. Right?
Well, I'm trying to get across that it's both relative and a bit subjective to the player. 160 is fast compared to 159, and slow compared to 161. It's not faster or slower depending on the style of music, but the individual pieces of music can have a feel or progression that makes it seem slower or faster.

Quote:
Beat: So do you disagree with me or what? I don't really understand your
comment, as I doesn't say much other than what I said. Except that I don't
think it's too arbitrary, but either one or the other. And I meant in this
discussion specifically, not in general: In some posts a beat is the quarter note
(as in 180 bpm), or the beat is every note hit on the drum.
I think we do agree. My point is that for say a 6/8 song, the "beat" or pulse is meant to be felt along the 8ths, rather than the quarter feel. A 6/4 song would go back to a quarter note feel. It's whatever the song writer wants to notate it and feel it as. Hell, what one person feels as a fast 6 could actually be a slower 4 song!

Music just isn't cut and dry all the time and I feel it's incorrect to say that a tempo is "faster" or "slower" depending on the genre of music.
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  #54  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:39 PM
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Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is offline
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Default Re: Fast...

Yeah, all fine with me basically, but the whole point of discussion originally
in this thread was the comparison between jazz to backbeat music I think.

Have you played some jazz standards? I think everybody who played in
both worlds agrees that the perception of tempo is different.

I'd even go as far and say, in a way, you could say jazz pieces are counted
and felt twice as fast. You know, as in the famous example where:

swing pulse --> + backbeat on beat 3 = half time shuffle --> morph to binary and change counting of the backbeats to 2 and 4

if you know what I mean, this description may be a little strange :). It's
almost 12 pm here and my eyes are half closed already...
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  #55  
Old 05-02-2017, 12:05 PM
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Default Re: Fast...

I haven't read each post in detail because it got a little snarky there but I remember discussing the whole "jazz tempo markings vs rock tempo markings" with Tommy Igoe. His point was that jazz is based off of a quarter note flow whereas rock is off an 8th note flow.

So when a jazz guy is thinking "fast tempo" he might be thinking about quarters going by at 400 BPM. The jazz ride pattern at that speed is blistering.

Whereas a rock guy would be thinking about playing 8ths at 240 (METAL!!!) or 16ths at 120 or something.That's also pretty damn fast.

Or you could play like my good friend Marco here, he's pretty fast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgM0qohTTfo
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