Bubinga (& other species) - a warning

They'll have to pry my bubinga drums from my cold dead hands. I seriously doubt this new classification will pose any problems for owners of existing drums, even those who travel with their gear. No bubinga police. This ruling will however cause major problems for Tama, and any other manufacturer dependent on that species when their existing supplies run out. Look for Tama to unveil a completely new lineup at NAMM 2018 that touts the new species they gravitate towards as the greatest yet. Sadly the day of bubinga is over.
 
Not only Tama. Sonor, Gretsch, Ludwig, DW/PDP, Sakae,... also use Bubinga for some of their products.
Trust me - there will still be "bubinga" drums, even after the pre convention stock runs dry. Certain sectors of the drum industry will do what they've always done - they'll generously "rename" a close related species as bubinga, in the same way they did with mahogany, rosewoods, etc. Either that, or they'll resurrect the old "select hardwoods" thing (= code for "whatever we can buy cheaply enough & get away with).
 
I echo your thoughts on Alpi, Andy. I really wish that more manufacturers were using it and discussing it rather than brushing the fact that they use it (if they do) under the carpet. It's a great compromise. Not quite as aesthetically pleasing as the 'real thing' but the environmental impact is so much lower than cutting down figured and endangered woods for the sake of vanity. If they can extoll the virtues of Apli to their consumer base, then the demand for figured wood may eventually reduce and there be less pressure to cut down these rare trees in the first place.

Part of the reason I started really following what you do in the beginning was because of the 'prototype' floating kit being made out of reclaimed mahogany. I thought that was a brilliant idea - utterly brilliant. It makes me wonder how much perfectly good (and very high-quality, utterly seasoned) wood we throw away like that.
 
Trust me - there will still be "bubinga" drums, even after the pre convention stock runs dry.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I am sure that we will see bubinga and other exotic woods in instruments in the future. But probably there will be less of them (at a higher pricetag) and manufacturers might look out for other (cheaper, less prolematic, but still exotic) woods. Those will be marketed as the "real deal" then, I guess.
 
Trust me - there will still be "bubinga" drums, even after the pre convention stock runs dry. Certain sectors of the drum industry will do what they've always done - they'll generously "rename" a close related species as bubinga, in the same way they did with mahogany, rosewoods, etc. Either that, or they'll resurrect the old "select hardwoods" thing (= code for "whatever we can buy cheaply enough & get away with).

Yeah, I think the manufacture is driven more by the cheap labor than the wood qualities. People think ooh exotic must be desirable, but really just in expensive to acquire and manufacture.

There are many species of "exotic", musical or otherwise desirable lumber in the US, it mostly gets burned for firewood cause some bodi'ed haf'ta stack an' dry it. Mostly, people just don't know about persimmon, Osage orange, hornbeam, black locust etc. or they have not bothered to figure out what the properties of it are, because it's too hard...
 
Hornbeam is great for sticks. ;-)

On a side-note: I just played with my all-birch Superstars yesterday (after roughly one month of not playing them) and, man, they do sound really good. Basically, birch, beech, oak and maple should cover all the needs of drummers. But as long as people want to be "different", to distinguish themselves from the masses *cough* there will be a market for "exotic wood" drumsets.
 
Somehow I question the relevance of this news to most drummers on here.

If i was to buy a boutique kit (I never will, it's like buying a ferrari - completely impractical and over-priced for day-to-day use) then I would only buy from a company like Guru anyway.

If I was buying mainstream then I'm sure Tama are a reputable company too.

As others have said, it will affect guitar builders, not guitarists.

Why don't we see more rosewood drums? Years ago I played a rosewood KD snare in Stockport and it was epic. For years, I've said that if I was to get a custom snare, I was rosewood. Not just for it's sound but also it's amazing look.

Is rosewood just too expensive and rare these days?
 
Somehow I question the relevance of this news to most drummers on here.
I believe it is relevant to many drummers on here, that's why I put it here. Many major manufacturers are using bubinga in their builds. It's not just about checking if the wood is legal if bought after January 2nd, it's potentially having to prove that it was supplied pre convention date if you were to ever travel across borders with it. That's something that's relevant information to anyone who currently owns a drum made (either wholly or in parts) of bubinga, or indeed any CITES II listed species.

Is rosewood just too expensive and rare these days?
True rosewoods are very rare, and trade in them has absolutely been illegal for decades. There are many rosewood related species still available, often touted as true rosewoods, that you can still have drums built from, but even those are beyond the pricing acceptable to major drum brands. Quite honestly, there's species out there that sound just as good, & I would seriously question the sonic benefit of building any multiple ply drum from a true rosewood, or even a related species for that matter.
 
I believe it is relevant to many drummers on here, that's why I put it here. Many major manufacturers are using bubinga in their builds. It's not just about checking if the wood is legal if bought after January 2nd, it's potentially having to prove that it was supplied pre convention date if you were to ever travel across borders with it. That's something that's relevant information to anyone who currently owns a drum made (either wholly or in parts) of bubinga, or indeed any CITES II listed species.


There's so much bad information in this thread I have no idea where to begin...

Frankly I'm shocked that a guy who's building custom drums, let alone ones made out of solid exotic woods is so uneducated... misguided on CITES.

For starters... people traveling across borders with their personal drums... no reason to worry. There's a "personal use" exception for instruments containing & weighing up to/under 11kg or roughly 25 pounds of protected species.

Also touring acts crossing international borders have little need to worry about instruments they already own. As long as the instrument in question is hand carried, not shipped separately they can cross international borders without paperwork or permits.

If the instruments are traveling on their own its easy enough to apply for papers, basically a "passport" for your gear. Already shipping in trailers? Just another declaration form.

No "receipt of purchase" is going to be enough... nor does it matter when the builders stock was procured or how many decades its spent curing on the rack. Also doesn't matter when the drum/guitar/bagpipes were built. Supplying a photo?! Seriously? WTF??

As a drum builder, and retailer you need to apply for a "Master File" and permits or have your shipments seized. Likewise people who do a lot of wheeling & dealing across borders need to apply for the same permits. Cost is low. Wait is long.

Many people in the guitar universe are already well aware of what's happening and the laws. As of Jan 2 Warmoth has stopped international shipments on some woods until the paperwork clears. Ishibashi in Tokyo has done the same thing. Should be back to normal soon enough but they both applied several months ago.

FWIW the vast majority of this international law & treaty isn't aimed at the MI industry, but more towards both furniture and perfume industries. World wide between guitars, drums, musical instruments in general account for maybe 5% of what's cut down and processed into a finished project.

Woods affected are way more then bubinga. Blackwood, cocobolo, ebony, kingwood, basically ALL rosewoods... Indian (even already protected plantation!); santos etc. Brazilian has been schedule I since 1992. Many other woods are affected as well.

Also worth noting... NONE of this matters unless your crossing an international border. And not all countries recognize CITES regulations.

I'm simply blown away... hopefully you can get educated, circle the wagons and protect your drum building business.
 
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Frankly I'm shocked that a guy who's building custom drums, let alone ones made out of solid exotic woods is so uneducated... misguided on CITES.
I apologise to all for my lack of understanding / research on this matter. I should have got into the detail before raising it here - my bad. Thank you to jmoose for calling me out on this.

For the record, we don't build custom drums, & have no intention of using any of the highlighted species in our instruments. If we used such species, then of course, we would be way better informed about our responsibilities.

Edit: Mod's, please feel free to delete this thread on the basis of inaccurate information.
 
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I apologise to all for my lack of understanding / research on this matter. I should have got into the detail before raising it here - my bad. Thank you to jmoose for calling me out on this.

For the record, we don't build custom drums, & have no intention of using any of the highlighted species in our instruments. If we used such species, then of course, we would be way better informed about our responsibilities.

Edit: Mod's, please feel free to delete this thread on the basis of inaccurate information.

Why delete it? What good does that do anyone? Unless its a favoritism thing here... hoof in mouth so delete?

Not that I want to hassle you, but this is your drum company right?

http://www.gurudrums.co.uk/shell-construction

Scrolling down to the wood choices there's easily at least a dozen types listed that are currently on CITES. Four rosewoods, blackwood, kingwood, macassar ebony, pau rosa (offshoot of Brazilian rosewood), Muhuhu and a few others.

For example - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aniba_rosaeodora

A. rosodora is an endangered species. Populations have declined rapidly due to the destructive harvesting methods. Areas previously logged have not seen much regrowth.[4] It might even be critically endangered.[8] Wild populations exist in remote locations, which are hence unlikely to be exploited.[4]

The Brazilian government has enacted regulations to help conserve the species. There have been difficulties with enforcement. Early experiments in artificial cultivation and propagation were failures. More recent attempts have been more successful.[3] It, or rather its wood and essential oil, is on Appendix II of CITES.[9] If the leaves could be used as a source, it would help conserve the species.[3] It has been suggested that production methods be altered to ensure a sustainable supply.[10] It is also listed on the Official list of endangered flora of Brazil.[11]


And again, it doesn't matter if you cut the tree and built the drum 5 or even 15 years ago. CITES is enforced worldwide about what's happening today. If your building with these materials you need to be on top of the regulations and apply for permits.

The little guitar corner of the interknot I hang in sometimes, guys like John Suhr & the crew at Warmoth were talking about this stuff as early as last summer. Not a surprise.

Even Kilberry bagpipes has a notice on the front page of their website...

https://kilberrybagpipes.com/
 
jmoose - I'm quite sure Andy's intentions were not bad with this thread, and I feel like you're going at him in a sort of aggressive way. I understand the want to re-educate us, and appreciate it, just wanted to mention that your tone came off a bit negative.
 
Gentlemen let's re-group and catch our breath. I have known Andy for quite some time and his integrity has never been questioned. He has apologized, admitted to making a mistake, so let's m move on. Jmoose made his point, and I don't think with any malice intended, so we will leave this where it is and if anyone has questions about the sale, use or procurement of exotic woods I would assume these two gentlemen would be happy to offer assistance. Mistakes were made, no one has been injured, so let's move on. Those that PM'ed me with concerns, I hope my explanation is sufficient. If not let me know privately. Have a great day.
 
Why delete it? What good does that do anyone? Unless its a favoritism thing here... hoof in mouth so delete?
No favouritism applied here, or expected. I certainly don't want anything deleted to save my embarrassment. I got it wrong, I thanked you for calling me out on it. I have no issues admitting a mistake.
Not that I want to hassle you, but this is your drum company right?

http://www.gurudrums.co.uk/shell-construction

Scrolling down to the wood choices there's easily at least a dozen types listed that are currently on CITES.
Of course, you're correct. That example list from our supplier should have been removed a good while ago - again, my bad. The site is due for a refresh according to a number of changes, I just haven't got around to it. Anyhow, I've deleted it. It's been a long time since we built from any of the species you highlighted, & even back then, maybe only 1 or 2 examples.


Edit: Just seen Grunt's post after I posted mine. I'm completely fine with everything, & for the record, I had no concerns whatsoever - PM'd or otherwise.
 
To add.

I spoke to the International Sales Department of Ishibashi and they informed me some more regarding the CITES list (this was regarding a vintage bass with a Rosewood neck, I wanted to buy off their shop):
In general, the CITES regulation is what you say. However, in Japan, the authorities decided to take it one step further by prohibiting items bought this year to be granted the permit. This means that we have to prove when we bought the item and if it was bought this year, it will not qualify. I am truly sorry about that. You are also correct that this has diminished international sales of guitars but perhaps not with as much as 50% but a large percentage, nevertheless.

For qualifying instruments, we can only send the application once it has sold. The reason for this being that the permit will be tied to the name and billing address of the buyer.
 
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