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Old 08-11-2018, 12:25 PM
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Default Double strokes with a shortboard

Does anyone do the double stroke technique using shortboard pedals? Every video I've seen people doing this all have longboards. I really want to learn how to do this, but am not going to buy new pedals. My pedals do everything I ask of them except this. It would be for my own satisfaction, no other reason. I would consider buying a Trick driveshaft, but that is it.

Also, can anyone explain the mechanics of this technique with a shortboard, if anyone even does it?
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:09 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

Not sure how short of a board you mean.. do you mean like this?

https://youtu.be/0383ztb6ed4?t=351

Thats about how short my boards are.. i use a sideways twist for doubles though..
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:17 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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Originally Posted by Icetech View Post
Not sure how short of a board you mean.. do you mean like this?

https://youtu.be/0383ztb6ed4?t=351

Thats about how short my boards are.. i use a sideways twist for doubles though..
short board pedals have heel plates long board pedals do not have heel plates.

Can't recommend Secret Weapons for the Modern Drummer Part 2 by Jojo Mayer enough.

I use heel down, heel up, and heel-toe. On heel up and heel-toe the ball of my foot slides up and down the pedal as I play.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:24 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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short board pedals have heel plates long board pedals do not have heel plates.

Can't recommend Secret Weapons for the Modern Drummer Part 2 by Jojo Mayer enough.

I use heel down, heel up, and heel-toe. On heel up and heel-tow the ball of my foot slides up and down the pedal as I play.
Ah.. i thought so, i just wasn't sure how doubles on a long or short board would be different.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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Ah.. i thought so, i just wasn't sure how doubles on a long or short board would be different.
I don't think they are IMO.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

Perhaps I should clarify, I want to do this: https://youtu.be/_r5GAjEuiX4

My singles are fine. I used to regularly jam to bands like Morbid Angel and such, as well as play in a death metal band. Once heel up no longer works, I use ankle and swivel techniques. I would like to learn double strokes as it seems like a more economical approach.
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Old 08-11-2018, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
Perhaps I should clarify, I want to do this: https://youtu.be/_r5GAjEuiX4

My singles are fine. I used to regularly jam to bands like Morbid Angel and such, as well as play in a death metal band. Once heel up no longer works, I use ankle and swivel techniques. I would like to learn double strokes as it seems like a more economical approach.
https://hudsonmusic.com/product/secret-weapons-2/ still applies.
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Old 08-11-2018, 03:52 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

Do you have triggers? If your not buying a double pedal you at least need to buy a trigger, and module for a few hundred. are you willing to put hundreds of hours into learning this technique just for "your own satisfaction"?

Unless you play extreme metal over 230 BPM I wouldn't even bother wasting your time that could be spent learning something practical. Learning good singles is much better long term and doesn't require such a finicky technique.

As someone who does heel toe alot of it will change depending on head tension, pedal settings and every time I set up onstage it's never as good as my jamspot.

Also, the video you are showing the guy has his beaters SUPER close and is using a mesh head. It sounds to me like the other drums have had samples replaced too. It's not going to sound like this if you are just pissing around on your kit in the house.
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

I watched the. Jojo video. Interesting stuff but what I'm looking for isn't in there.

Yes I am willing to spend hours on it. It's about the only thing with my feet I can't do, and this frustrates me.

My singles are fine. Played death metal for years and years, still love playing it, just don't enjoy being in a band anymore.

What I need is an explanation of the foot motion that gets the beater to double stroke. I haven't seen anyone doing it with a shortboard. Sometimes it happens accidentally when I'm not running both feet, but can't seem to find the switch when I am running my feet.

I play heel up to a point (don't know BPMs, stopped caring about that long ago), then switch to ankle and swivel. No one was doing doubles 20+ years ago when I was in a band, so no one ever showed me. Now as I try to learn it watching videos, I run into longboards and no explanation on how the technique works. The closest thing was Longstreth comparing it to petting a cat. I don't have a cat!
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Old 08-11-2018, 05:46 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

I don't really think having a heelplate makes much difference concerning the basic physics, unless you just try to muscle it out heel down.

You have constant release, heel toe and slide. They can almost become the same thing depending on a number for personal factors and preferences.

You just really have to see what method of getting that second stroke feels more natural to you.
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Old 08-11-2018, 06:17 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
I watched the. Jojo video. Interesting stuff but what I'm looking for isn't in there.
I disagree.

Quote:
What I need is an explanation of the foot motion that gets the beater to double stroke. I haven't seen anyone doing it with a shortboard. Sometimes it happens accidentally when I'm not running both feet, but can't seem to find the switch when I am running my feet.
What is missing from Jojo's DVD? I have it and his explanation of the physics is as good as you'll get. No one is better at explaining how pedals and technique work than him.

His DVD spends quite a bit of time on how to knock out double strokes in different ways.
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Old 08-11-2018, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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I disagree.



What is missing from Jojo's DVD? I have it and his explanation of the physics is as good as you'll get. No one is better at explaining how pedals and technique work than him.

His DVD spends quite a bit of time on how to knock out double strokes in different ways.
What I'm after is one motion, two hits. Just like a double stroke with your hands. One down stroke, two hits. All his strokes are one hit per motion.

Go to your pedal, push it with your finger. There will be a point where the beater double hits the head on the downstroke. One movement, two hits. How do my feet replicate this?
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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What I'm after is one motion, two hits. Just like a double stroke with your hands. One down stroke, two hits. All his strokes are one hit per motion.
Yeah, but your fingers are also doing work for the second stroke.

Quote:
Go to your pedal, push it with your finger. There will be a point where the beater double hits the head on the downstroke. One movement, two hits. How do my feet replicate this?
The only way I can get it to do that is to flutter after making my main stroke. Trying to find the perfect place to stop so the rebound hits your still foot to hit once more sounds painful for ligaments, uncontrolled, and too dependent on pedal tension.

I still think making your main motion for the first hit and sliding somehow to create the second hit when going back to the start position is the most efficient way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
The closest thing was Longstreth comparing it to petting a cat. I don't have a cat!
He is trying to explain the sliding motion on the upstroke.
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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Yeah, but your fingers are also doing work for the second stroke.



The only way I can get it to do that is to flutter after making my main stroke. Trying to find the perfect place to stop so the rebound hits your still foot to hit once more sounds painful for ligaments, uncontrolled, and too dependent on pedal tension.

I still think making your main motion for the first hit and sliding somehow to create the second hit when going back to the start position is the most efficient way.



He is trying to explain the sliding motion on the upstroke.
That's the thing, watching the videos it looks like the foot stays planted. No rocking, sliding, swivelling, nothing. This is why I am hoping someone who does it actually can explain what their body is doing. I learn better that way than just watching. I like knowing what the body does.

I feel like I may just have to figure it out on my own.
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
What I'm after is one motion, two hits. Just like a double stroke with your hands. One down stroke, two hits. All his strokes are one hit per motion.

Go to your pedal, push it with your finger. There will be a point where the beater double hits the head on the downstroke. One movement, two hits. How do my feet replicate this?
There's a general dynamic difference here. Past the lowest dynamic levels also with the hands you have to do a little something with the hands on the "up-stroke" to keep it even. More the louder you go. Things just don't work that way.
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

No one did it 20 years ago because no one was playing 240bpm 16th notes on the kick back then. hahaa

I kinda cheat using high head tension and loose springs but it works well. I use triggers too due to high tension (for sound) but I can actualy get it to sound pretty decent acoustic when I pull my beaters back further. It just doesn't work well at 260bpm if I go too far back. sometimes the hits sound off, like a doublestroke on the hands where someone is not super consistent

Here are a few videos I made a couple years back, using longboards. I don't have shortboards to try on.. the only difference would be the leverage is different, i feel the direct drive of the pedal saves some lag as well, but once again i haven't tried on chains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2gjb9AzpRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtX0k97H46A


and without triggers (audio is taken on a phone or something crappy though)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMJw0Htap9M


I have an old ludwig speed king i'm going to test it on.. no spring adjustments, no nothing.. we'll see how it goes haha

also all those videos are a few years old.. I'm more consistent now and have them hitting harder..
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:49 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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Originally Posted by MrInsanePolack View Post
That's the thing, watching the videos it looks like the foot stays planted. No rocking, sliding, swivelling, nothing. This is why I am hoping someone who does it actually can explain what their body is doing. I learn better that way than just watching. I like knowing what the body does.

I feel like I may just have to figure it out on my own.
Your eyes do deceive you. No one just sticks their foot down and hopes the 2nd hit rebounds correctly. There is always a second motion on the upstroke to initiate the second hit. It is clearly noticeable in the link you posted.

Which brings me back to the DVD...
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:55 PM
beyondbetrayal beyondbetrayal is offline
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

in the vids i posted it feels like one motion after a while and when you get going fast. leg drops, get a stroke, while lifting the leg theres a light forward motion getting you a free stroke, i over exaggerate explaining slow. its SUPER easy once you get it, no joke, my guitar player can do it now..

my feet don't leave the pedal, and the flater to the pedal board they are the faster and less i have to work for it.. at really high speeds it looks like i am not trying if i am not hitting hard.
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Old 08-11-2018, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

Awesome thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for. I'm glad you took the time to do it slowly. I can see now there is a second movement. It can't be seen at speed. This was my issue and why I was after a mechanical explanation.

Haha my pedals have a chain as well as shortboard, might have my work cut out for me. That's okay though, I enjoy working on stuff I can't do. Not too much beats that ah-ha moment when things start to go right. Again, a million thank yous.
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Old 08-12-2018, 02:08 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

I'll try and make an "updated" one in the next week or so. Since these videos I have got my springs slightly tighter and beaters further back making it less trigger reliant. It's like improving at double strokes on the hands. I should have worked on consistency before speed haha.

The ludwig speedking didn't really work for me, but that pedal is hard to play on the roland kit at the best of times.


what type of pedal ARE you using? If you can lower the foot board that really helps. I see guys do this in shoes too. The shortboards SHOULD work as my heels hang over the back anyways.. and these days my heel doesn't drop below the pedal so a heel plate should still be ok.

Good luck and let me know how it works out.. I do know longboards will be easier with the leverage. haha
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Old 08-12-2018, 03:00 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

I have an older series of Pearl 902s. I know they are pretty basic, but they do have a power shifter heel plate, and theiy get maintatned pretty well. I think the issue will lie in the driveshaft. It's in good shape but is old. Like I said I'm willing to upgrade it to the Trick.

I've been through just about every type of cam/linkage setup, and really prefer the concentric cam and chain.

I use the hard plastic side of the beater. I don't know how beater weight and hardness will effect the response of this technique, but I'll cross that bridge later if needed.

My head is a medium tension. The reso is JAW. I have nothing in the drum, but the batter head has a small strip of speaker cabinet carpet where the beaters contact the head, and there is a pillow touching the front of the reso so the drum sound is almost all attack. There is no boominess at all. Again I will adjust as necessary.

I didn't have time yesterday to play, but today is supposed to rain so I will be more than likely able to sit down and start working this out.
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Old 08-12-2018, 03:08 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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I have an older series of Pearl 902s. I know they are pretty basic, but they do have a power shifter heel plate, and theiy get maintatned pretty well. I think the issue will lie in the driveshaft. It's in good shape but is old. Like I said I'm willing to upgrade it to the Trick.

I've been through just about every type of cam/linkage setup, and really prefer the concentric cam and chain.

I use the hard plastic side of the beater. I don't know how beater weight and hardness will effect the response of this technique, but I'll cross that bridge later if needed.

My head is a medium tension. The reso is JAW. I have nothing in the drum, but the batter head has a small strip of speaker cabinet carpet where the beaters contact the head, and there is a pillow touching the front of the reso so the drum sound is almost all attack. There is no boominess at all. Again I will adjust as necessary.

I didn't have time yesterday to play, but today is supposed to rain so I will be more than likely able to sit down and start working this out.

EVERYTHING effects this technique. Beater height even makes a difference. and weight... if the beaters are lower or higher it will change the feel and distance between the double and I use it to eliminate gallopy sounds.


I also find there is about a 40-50 BPM range this works for... so I can set it for 200-240 or so, but it won't work at 180 or 160.... I can have it work greeat at 230-265 maybe, but then it won't work at 200 and so on.



My band is often in the 200-240 range so I keep it there.

Beater height, weight, AND distance from head
batter tension, reso tension,
spring tension,
foot board height
On the axis I have the VDL setting which makes a big difference. on the demons they had the finesse/power setting. (basically the cam)

All things to adjust and everyone effects the others,, if you move the beaters back, you end up adjusting springs and height and so on...
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

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Originally Posted by beyondbetrayal View Post
Unless you play extreme metal over 230 BPM I wouldn't even bother wasting your time that could be spent learning something practical. Learning good singles is much better long term and doesn't require such a finicky technique.
I totally agree with respect to all out speed, but double strokes can be the best way to play certain double bass patterns, to avoid awkward or near impossible single stroke gymnastics.
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Old 08-14-2018, 03:35 PM
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Default Re: Double strokes with a shortboard

I don't think the type pedal matters-just practice double strokes. I play single but I like this Mike Johnston "warm-up" that is all doubles hands and feet-it seems simple but try it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqzUT2r4R2I
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