State of education around the world

Hi guys, I'd like some input from everyone on something I have been battling with recently.

I am a Scottish based drummer and teacher and seem to be constantly pushing against the grain when it comes to teaching. In particular I get some resistance from schools when I try and challenge my pupils and put them forward for exams with pieces than are maybe not the norm.

For example last year a pupil wanted to do Pot Licker by Stanton Moore, New Ground by Tommy Igoe and I shot the sheriff. All great tunes and he could perform them really well. HIs school intervened and said that the pieces were above the level required and so he had to do the same pieces he did the year before.

This year a pupil has been told he can't perform Chuck E's In Love, Sir Duke, Englishman in New York and Dude looks like a lady and instead he must perform the stock pieces as the examiner may not be able to read the pieces......????



Our school governing body (the SQA) has set out certain guidelines which means that you in exams you are not allowed to do the following

- No snare drum pieces unless you are doing your whole exam on a snare drum.
- No jazz or anything that would benefit from improvisation.
- Everything needs to be written out.
- At 16 you need to perform 4 styles in 4 minutes and at 17 you need to performs 5 styles in 8 minutes.

More often than not pupils are in group classes of up to 5 per 30 minutes.
In some regions teachers must teach a minimum amount of pupils in the 2 cases I have heard the numbers are 100 and 120 per week.
All the while the parents are paying for those lessons.


Without wanting to get into too much of a rant I would like some info on what drum education in schools and colleges is like in your area/country.


- What do you study? Styles?

- Does your teacher introduce you to classic text such as stick control, syncopation etc and things like new breed, groove essentials etc.

- Are you put forward for performance exams?

- Do you have marching bands? Jazz bands? Orchestras etc?

- Is there a drum/percussion teacher in your school? Are they a good player?

- Do parents pay for lessons in schools?

Even just some info on what education is like in your area/country would be great.

As a side note I am trying to get funding to go to LA and study with some of my favourite players. While I am there I want to see what colleges and schools do.
How they teach? How programs are funded etc. and see what we can do over here that will allow our musicians to improve and play to the highest standard possible.

As i said before any input from anywhere else in the world would be great

Thanks

Dave

hi Dave

as a private teacher on the east coast of the US (NY/NJ) with a roster of 55 + students I can speak on some of your questions.

-from my experience school music programs do not turn students on to any of the classic books.
they are given the sheet music or charts that the orchestra, jazz band, or marching band is to perform and are expected to have a private teacher prepare them.
most students have an in school lesson once a week to put a little work in on the pieces but often the teacher is not a drummer at all just a general music education teacher .
in rare cases where the music teacher is indeed a drummer he or she may recommend the student ask their private teacher about books such as Stick Control or Syncopation etc.

-most of my students are public school students so no the parents do not pay for the lessons in school.
they pay for private lessons with teachers such as myself

- as far as exams ...the only students I have that need to perform for a jury are my high school marching band students and college orchestral players.
and it is mostly rudiments and/or etudes

good luck on getting to LA

I lived there for nearly a decade and studied with some great players both privately and at MI.

I enjoyed working and studying in Los Angeles very much and still return quite frequently to work.

I hope any of this helps

feel free to ask any questions you may have

Hi Tony, thanks for replying.

LA would be cool. Hopefully it all comes together soon.

Could you expand on how the marching band and other things work?

Here there is no marching band culture (only Pipe bands and most schools don't have them) and very rarely a Jazz band etc.

Is a student expected to join them if they want to study drums at school or are they optional extras.

Obviously not every band will be the same but what is the general level of the marching bands like? Are there great ones and really bad ones?

From the outside looking in it seems the marching band thing is a big reason why a lot of great drummers come from the US. Rudiments and the skills those bands teach are a necessity not an option as they are here.

Thanks again

D

My cousin is a music teacher in NY state. In order to become a music teacher, he had to get a masters in music. This required him to be able to play every instrument in an orchestra. His two main instruments when we were kids were drums and guitar. From that perspective, I would like to think that music teachers here in the US have the ability to play and be somewhat decent. He started teaching like 20 years ago, maybe more.

Fast forward to two years ago. My daughter, upon entering 6th grade, was required to take music. She had never taken music before, and was told she was to start out on the flute. There was no choice. Her mom and I were told that if she didn't like the flute or had problems with it, she could switch instruments within the first 6 weeks of school. After about three weeks, she decided she hated the flute and wanted me to teach her the drums. She approached her teacher about this and was to no, she had to stay on the flute. There was not enough time to catch her up and they needed her on flute as there weren't enough flutists in her class. Her mom called the teacher. After getting told no about a million times, she gave me the phone. I explained to the lady that I am a drummer of 20 years (at the time), took lessons myself, know how to read drum charts, and can have her caught up with the class in a fairly short amount of time. She then tells me that percussionists must try out (even though in 6th grade this was not the case), and that she didn't need another student who wanted to play drums because it was too easy, and she didn't want a class full of drummers just bashing away and not learning anything. I had it out with this lady on the phone, my wife spoke with the principle about it, who agreed that my daughter should be able to switch as we were told she could, and we even contacted the school board. Regardless of our efforts, this lady stood rock solid in her position. My daughter soon stopped participating in the class, and ended up failing because of this teachers own agendas. She wasn't there to teach the kids anything as far as I am concerned, she just wanted to play dictator. As a result, my daughter now has NO interest in learning anything musical, and I directly blame that one teacher for it. As an educator, she is there to guide the kids, and is supposed to have THEIR best interests in the forefront, not her own. Now I am not a violent person, but I have never wanted to punch someone so bad before, over something as trivial as switching instruments. Because of this I now have a negative outlook on in school music programs, and think that maybe kids should be left to pursue music on their own terms rather than be forced to learn something they have no interest in at school.

MrInsanePolack said:

My cousin is a music teacher in NY state. In order to become a music teacher, he had to get a masters in music. This required him to be able to play every instrument in an orchestra. His two main instruments when we were kids were drums and guitar. From that perspective, I would like to think that music teachers here in the US have the ability to play and be somewhat decent. He started teaching like 20 years ago, maybe more.

Fast forward to two years ago. My daughter, upon entering 6th grade, was required to take music. She had never taken music before, and was told she was to start out on the flute. There was no choice. Her mom and I were told that if she didn't like the flute or had problems with it, she could switch instruments within the first 6 weeks of school. After about three weeks, she decided she hated the flute and wanted me to teach her the drums. She approached her teacher about this and was to no, she had to stay on the flute. There was not enough time to catch her up and they needed her on flute as there weren't enough flutists in her class. Her mom called the teacher. After getting told no about a million times, she gave me the phone. I explained to the lady that I am a drummer of 20 years (at the time), took lessons myself, know how to read drum charts, and can have her caught up with the class in a fairly short amount of time. She then tells me that percussionists must try out (even though in 6th grade this was not the case), and that she didn't need another student who wanted to play drums because it was too easy, and she didn't want a class full of drummers just bashing away and not learning anything. I had it out with this lady on the phone, my wife spoke with the principle about it, who agreed that my daughter should be able to switch as we were told she could, and we even contacted the school board. Regardless of our efforts, this lady stood rock solid in her position. My daughter soon stopped participating in the class, and ended up failing because of this teachers own agendas. She wasn't there to teach the kids anything as far as I am concerned, she just wanted to play dictator. As a result, my daughter now has NO interest in learning anything musical, and I directly blame that one teacher for it. As an educator, she is there to guide the kids, and is supposed to have THEIR best interests in the forefront, not her own. Now I am not a violent person, but I have never wanted to punch someone so bad before, over something as trivial as switching instruments. Because of this I now have a negative outlook on in school music programs, and think that maybe kids should be left to pursue music on their own terms rather than be forced to learn something they have no interest in at school.

Click to expand...

Man that is shocking!

Surely the Principal would over rule the teacher?

D

Dave_Major said:

Hi Tony, thanks for replying.

LA would be cool. Hopefully it all comes together soon.

Could you expand on how the marching band and other things work?

Here there is no marching band culture (only Pipe bands and most schools don't have them) and very rarely a Jazz band etc.

Is a student expected to join them if they want to study drums at school or are they optional extras.

Obviously not every band will be the same but what is the general level of the marching bands like? Are there great ones and really bad ones?

From the outside looking in it seems the marching band thing is a big reason why a lot of great drummers come from the US. Rudiments and the skills those bands teach are a necessity not an option as they are here.

Thanks again

D

Click to expand...

marching band and drum corps. is very big here in the US

high school and college take the band and corps. competitions very seriously

these are organized by the schools and some have a rich history of championships and tradition.

the student is not expected to join but I always encourage them to and they are never sorry they did.

they are required to pass an audition that usually entails sharp rudiments, traditional grip, memorization of some pieces...maybe a cadence .....and are expected to play them while stepping .

it is the best place for them to learn discipline and feel the comradery within an organized musical ensemble

I often get young students who express to me that their goal is make it into the marching band when they get to high school and want a head start.
I love that type of ambition .

a few of my students who I handed their first pair of sticks to that played snare in marching band, were drummers in the jazz band , and also would seek out musicians outside of school to form bands and such now study at Berklee College of Music in Boston MA one of the countries most prestigious music schools .... one of them on scholarship
and another student at the University of Michigan in the drum corps.

they all attribute their early success to me pushing them and the organized school music programs

WhoIsTony? said:

marching band and drum corps. is very big here in the US

high school and college take the band and corps. competitions very seriously

these are organized by the schools and some have a rich history of championships and tradition.

the student is not expected to join but I always encourage them to and they are never sorry they did.

they are required to pass an audition that usually entails sharp rudiments, traditional grip, memorization of some pieces...maybe a cadence .....and are expected to play them while stepping .

it is the best place for them to learn discipline and feel the comradery within an organized musical ensemble

I often get young students who express to me that their goal is make it into the marching band when they get to high school and want a head start.
I love that type of ambition .

a few of my students who I handed their first pair of sticks to that played snare in marching band, were drummers in the jazz band , and also would seek out musicians outside of school to form bands and such now study at Berklee College of Music in Boston MA one of the countries most prestigious music schools .... one of them on scholarship
and another student at the University of Michigan in the drum corps.

they all attribute their early success to me pushing them and the organized school music programs

Click to expand...

Awesome man. Hopefully my students are working towards similar high levels. I haven't been teaching long enough to have a long list of students but some are at the stage where they are heading into uni/college for drums and everyone of them has better hands than everyone else in their class.

Just as i thought with the marching thing. Great technique along with a lot of other skills.
I'm actually watching Jeff Queens dvd right now.

Even just the exercises such as 4-2-1 and grid are so alien to a lot of people here.

D

Dave_Major said:

Man that is shocking!

Surely the Principal would over rule the teacher?

D

Click to expand...

One would think so, but in this case no. My wife and I tried the best we could to no avail. Finally we told our daughter that we would not force her to play the flute.

MrInsanePolack said:

My cousin is a music teacher in NY state. In order to become a music teacher, he had to get a masters in music. This required him to be able to play every instrument in an orchestra. His two main instruments when we were kids were drums and guitar. From that perspective, I would like to think that music teachers here in the US have the ability to play and be somewhat decent. He started teaching like 20 years ago, maybe more.

Fast forward to two years ago. My daughter, upon entering 6th grade, was required to take music. She had never taken music before, and was told she was to start out on the flute. There was no choice. Her mom and I were told that if she didn't like the flute or had problems with it, she could switch instruments within the first 6 weeks of school. After about three weeks, she decided she hated the flute and wanted me to teach her the drums. She approached her teacher about this and was to no, she had to stay on the flute. There was not enough time to catch her up and they needed her on flute as there weren't enough flutists in her class. Her mom called the teacher. After getting told no about a million times, she gave me the phone. I explained to the lady that I am a drummer of 20 years (at the time), took lessons myself, know how to read drum charts, and can have her caught up with the class in a fairly short amount of time. She then tells me that percussionists must try out (even though in 6th grade this was not the case), and that she didn't need another student who wanted to play drums because it was too easy, and she didn't want a class full of drummers just bashing away and not learning anything. I had it out with this lady on the phone, my wife spoke with the principle about it, who agreed that my daughter should be able to switch as we were told she could, and we even contacted the school board. Regardless of our efforts, this lady stood rock solid in her position. My daughter soon stopped participating in the class, and ended up failing because of this teachers own agendas. She wasn't there to teach the kids anything as far as I am concerned, she just wanted to play dictator. As a result, my daughter now has NO interest in learning anything musical, and I directly blame that one teacher for it. As an educator, she is there to guide the kids, and is supposed to have THEIR best interests in the forefront, not her own. Now I am not a violent person, but I have never wanted to punch someone so bad before, over something as trivial as switching instruments. Because of this I now have a negative outlook on in school music programs, and think that maybe kids should be left to pursue music on their own terms rather than be forced to learn something they have no interest in at school.

Click to expand...

I've been married to a NYS school teacher (not music) for 20 years in addition to various other family members who are teachers in NYS as well at various levels. This is consistent with our experience as well.

Music in the schools at least locally continue to get suppressed while football fields and other athletic fields continue to get built or improved.

It's educators like Anthony that give people in the drumming community like me continued hope about the future and sustaining music education. The schools have become factories with the goal to make it to the finish line at the end of the school year with some sort of passing grade.

There are some music educators in the schools who try hard. Many though have their hands tied which severely restricts their creative abilities.

I'm way too jaded to have many positive things to say about the current state of public education.

It is shocking, but the same as most subjects. Schools want narrow bands of syllabus taught so it is easier for them to mark/asses, and easier for pupils to gain a pass mark. Thus boosting overall exam marks and league table positions.

Sad but true of most schools.

Wow...some interesting experience in Arkansas!

I offer a different view into this topic...which says that here in the US, at least in my experience, the public school system probably should not be counted on to provide the best direction and input to one's musical journey. That surely is not true in every instance, but you can't force young people to choose a direction or pigeonhole them at such a young age or use gross evaluation methods to determine which children should do what. In most cases I just don't think the focus is there.

For those children that show passion in some musical area, I think that has to be cultivated offline...and often times that "passion" (as in the case of our eldest daughter) is just a response to the pop culture zeitgeist. I don't see the value in forcing adolescents to take some regimented approach to music unless they naturally are inclined and take the initiative...otherwise you might just pound it out of them.

Let's face it, here in the US, a career as a musician is not the most highly regarded path by parents...although I'm sure there are parents that it appeals to....most parents are looking for their children to get a college education in a field that is valued in terms of job opportunities.

Music is not a required endeavor...so I think it should be more FUN and less STRUCTURE for the general child going through school..and for those that have a real desire (not necessarily aptitude) that can be nurtured through selecting an appropriate private instructor.

My sister went through the school instruction route and was actually a concert level flutist and first chair throughout high school...endless hours of practice. In my room of the house, the level of organization was much lower and there was no way I was going to be in the school band or be told what music or instrument I was going to play...I didn't see the value. I did not see the value in much However, I did sit in my room and listen to and absorb alot of music.

Today, my sister's flute still sits dormant as it has since the high school days were over...whereas my passion, which did not fit into the tidy organizational structure of the school system, is still being mined and I continue to play music (guitar) and get paid for it..and now am also learning drums.

My point is, the large majority of children are not ready to be pigeonholed or force fed a musical direction....if they want to do it, trust me they will....there will always be the early adopters, go with the crowd folks like my sister...give them what the want and let them enjoy it...ultimately those that really want to play an instrument will find their way to it. Too much direction and rigidity at a young or developmental age may not be the best method for something like a musical instrument.

Music studies in general seem to be quite different here in America. I have a friend who is from Scotland and he always spoke of the "exams" that you are talking about where he was required to play compulsory music to pass to the next level. We dont have anything like that here at the high school level. Here music in school is elective and really has very little impact on music studies at the college level.

America seems to be very informal about things like that. Yet we still manage to produce exceptional musicians.

It seems that the schools are trying to get all students into the academic course, with much less emphasis on working with your hands. Master (experienced) plumbers, electricians, and mechanics can earn $50-$135 per hour, but the students are often not told that. Not everyone's personality is the same, so some people will hate desk jobs - no matter how high the salary.

But whether someone is pursuing an academic occupation or a trade, music education can instill values such as persistence and improve critical thinking/problem solving skills.

Jeff

Music education in the US Public School System is essentially an extension of sports(read American High School Football)

"The Band" plays at the sporting events...and you cant participate in a part of the music department that does not perform at a sporting event(like an orchestra) unless you "March" in a part that plays at a sporting event. ( I hope this is changing but not as far as I know...especially in rural smaller schools).

Sickening...especially when you familiarize yourself with the mentality fostered by U.S. Highschool Sports...very us vrs them...and depreciatory of those who(m) do not join...to the point of cliche' abuses ignored or minimized by staff.

...sorry for the rant...

Otto said:

Music education in the US Public School System is essentially an extension of sports(read American High School Football)

"The Band" plays at the sporting events...and you cant participate in a part of the music department that does not perform at a sporting event(like an orchestra) unless you "March" in a part that plays at a sporting event. ( I hope this is changing but not as far as I know...especially in rural smaller schools).

Sickening...especially when you familiarize yourself with the mentality fostered by U.S. Highschool Sports...very us vrs them...and depreciatory of those who(m) do not join...to the point of cliche' abuses ignored or minimized by staff.

...sorry for the rant...

Click to expand...

what sport is indoor drumline/percussion ensemble an extension of ?

WhoIsTony? said:

what sport is indoor drumline/percussion ensemble an extension of ?

Click to expand...

Its an extension of basketball.

Something applicable to this conversation is posted on Tommy Igoe's Facebook Page. https://www.facebook.com/tommyigoe

Here's the incident:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...7e564c-4d51-11e3-ac54-aa84301ced81_story.html

Here's Tommy's response...

"Dear Mr. Scott,

I want you to know, I support you! I can only imagine the hate mail you must be getting- concerning the nation-wide attention you have brought onto yourself when you interrupted your own school band's half-time show. Bet you never thought kicking the stupid band off the field would cause such a stir!

Do not listen to them. Listen to me. Most won't realize it but your actions are understandable! Totally. It all comes down to naked jealousy, rage and envy. I mean, look at the top three facts:

1. I never met you, but holy wow, you are obviously a terrible coach. Not regular bad, I mean, world-class bad! Your record speaks for itself. What was it, exactly? 1-9? Ouch!

2. Your school's band is a state champion! Wow! I mean that has got to hurt. Those band geeks are kicking your ass and, well, you'll show them! Right? No band-geeks are going to kick your ass. Boom!

3. I personally thought shaking the podium was GREAT! I mean, there's a kid about 7 feet up in the air with no protection, completely vulnerable and while most would think that endangering the life of a child is "irresponsible", I thought- NOW THERE'S A GUY WHO TAKES DICKHEAD TO A NEW LEVEL! You, sir, are a fearless dickhead. You have that special dickish-ness that few possess. Kudos! (That's a fancy term for respect).

You, Mike Scott, have what it takes. Never stop being you! You have what it takes to continue the fine tradition of meathead, punk, culture-less coaches who wear the label "dumb and proud" on their sleeve. You continue to pass on the great selfish tradition to younger athletes- that the world revolves around them - and that playing a sport, that for the majority won't be played past high-school (whereas the musicians will play until they die) is to be prized above all else in our stupid sports driven, arts deprived, American culture. The conduct of your players by all published accounts I've read, mimics their coach. Disrespectful punks.

However, thanks are in order! As with the coincidentally timed Jonathan Martin story, you have done more to expose the inner working of disrespectful coaches nationwide than anyone else. Thank you! And it is my sincerest hope, with the help of cell phone cameras and loudly self-advocating music educators and parents, that "teachers" such as yourself are exposed, held up, examined, publicly excoriated and then most of all...

fired.


Sincerely,

Tommy Igoe"

The state of music eduction in America is all over the map. The recreational player can make due with the school program and or a private teacher from the local rock band or music store. Plays the drumset. the serious kid does the route with the school program and usually a private teacher with a more substantial background such as a school imusic teacher who was a percussion major.Plays the snare drum, some marimba,drum set and maybe timpani. Often this kid can wind up in a college music school program. Then there are elite kids who study with a variety of professional level players, attend summer camps and are trying to gain admission to the conservatories such as Juilliard, Eastman, New England Conservatory. This kid has had some serious exposure to 4mallet marimba, upper level snare drum texts such as Deleclue Douze Etudes, timpani methods and orchestral excerpts as well as a standard drum set texts. It,s honestly all over the map and the beautiful thing about it is there is room for everyone to enjoy the world of drumming and percussion.