Off-shoot from another thread.....

Bo Eder

Platinum Member
OK. You know what I've just realized? I will probably never be one of those artists that will ever get along with the marketing side of said art. You won't be able to use me to sell anything new because I'll always question if having anything new (or more expensive) is the way to go.

This thread is going to be an extension of the "The expensive drumset stigma..." thread that ruffled a few feathers (some of which is even my own), and I've provided a YouTube clip to boot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovSx1Q54CJw

The question is (you guessed it), what do you need an expensive snare drum for?

The video provided is of me playing a New Orleans kinda' groove with my Sonor Mystery Maple Force 3007 snare drum. Other than having re-fitted it with a Remo Vintage Emperor on top and an Ambassador snare side on the bottom, the drum is completely stock. Oh wait, I also replaced the plastic tape strips that hold the snares with that blue aircraft cable so popular these days (I swore by those things 20 years ago when Stan at Pro drum in Hollywood forced them on me when he replaced my snares back then).

When I listened back to the video (done on my Zoom Q3, about two feet and slightly up from the drum), I thought the drum sounded wonderful. In fact, it just went head-to-head with a Sonor Phil Rudd snare earlier today and convinced me not to get the Phil just yet. Do give it a listen, critique my playing if you must, but try and tell me that that snare wouldn't work for a majority of gigs.

It's sacrilege, really. The drum can probably be had for less than $100 new, it's got that funny Sonor plastic strainer, it's really light. And even though Sonor says it's Canadian Maple sandwiching plies of Asian Maple, who can tell? After hearing it, who cares?

You can make the argument that well, 'how do you know it'll last a night of pounding by Taylor Hawkins?' Maybe it won't. Maybe it will. Are you hired to play like Taylor Hawkins all the time? I'm just saying, be objective. Look at the drum for 90% of the playing situations we non-famous folks might get a call for, and decide if the drum won't cut it.

I will probably pick up a nice solid pro-level snare by the end of this new week anyway, but since we're at the beginning of a new week, let's start it off with another controversy! Let the arguing commence!
 
Interesting thought and quite timely.

I did a "blind test" recently with my father, who's been drumming for over 50 years...although no longer playing live, he knows his stuff....good enough for me.

To paint a picture, I own 6 snares, a 402, a 400, a Black Beauty, a Pearl Maple FF, a Pearl Brass piccolo and the stock snare that came with my second hand Cat Maples.
Guess which snare sounded most pleasing to his ear? I fell over backwards when he called the Cat maple the winner, sight unseen.

All in all, I guess you make a good point (depending on many factors, of course). But, will it sway me? Would I ever use the cat maple snare instead of the supra's or BB though? Hell no!
 
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First off, nice romp, Bo. I can taste the gumbo!!!

The rest Brundlefly nailed.. Need and Want are two different things. I can rationalize and disguise my want as a need to myself or to you. I can go on about the relative merits of the enhanced comfort levels of a Rolls over a Toyota Camry, if I want to.
One of the greatest drum solos I ever heard was by a street performer in NYC, playing with a busted kit with torn cymbals, holding a collapsing snare between his knees and grabbing his runaway hihat..

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Thanks aydee! It's nice to get it from people who listen!

However, I didn't want to start an argument about what we want or need. And I've owned the Copeland snare a year ago which is great for the price. And like I said in my first post, I just turned down the Phil Rudd snare which is a little more than the Copeland, but basically the same drum.

Many people will justify what we want. We need it to play better. We need it 'cause it's an investment I only have to make once. Blah blah blah. Maybe I should've only included those drums over-$450? There are so many snares out there that are incredible pieces of art - some of those Sonors are well over $1000. My question was, do you need that to do the gig?

And on the investment issue: if I were a drum collector, maybe that's a factor. But if I did an endless string of casuals, weddings, and one-night stands outside the city, I'd probably be more comfortable with a cheaper drum that if lost or broken, wouldn't make me cry. Or make my wallet alot thinner when I had to replace it. But I'm even safer armed with the knowledge that I can make any drum sound good. So if the truck gets stolen with all the gear, I know I could walk into a music store, buy whatever they had, and use it on the job. That's more what I was thinking about. Not about the economics of our drums compared to starving people (anywhere). That's a whole 'nother political discussion. Let's keep this focused on the drums, and the gig. Cool?
 
The short answer .... I don't.​
 
Nice noodling, Bo. Nice drum too.

I put down a fair bit of the seeming obsessive love of flash gear to boys and their toys. I also think the whole consumerist thing comes into it - inanimate objects as status cymbals. Guys often get off on flash cars and gadgets too. I don't get it but some guys simply love their gear to bits. It's a hobby, I guess, and it keeps them out of trouble ...

I've also seen kits that are so gorgeous that they're a work of art in themselves and I understand why someone with strong aesthetic/design sensibilities would want that.

As for me, when I started playing again I was dreading the lugging so I needed a small, light kit and that's what I bought :)
 
Ultimately price is never a good indication of quality, you don't always receive what you pay for, a lot of the time a more expensive drum is a better made drum however but it does come down to preference and the drum in question.

I have a rather expensive gretsch snare with a high quality head on it. I used to play a pearl forum. For hard rock I dont think it necissarily sounds better but when it comes to brush work one sounds irrate the other sounds as it should, if not a tad better then average.

To summarise my little tangent, if it sounds good it sounds good, don't let price fool you.
 
...So if the truck gets stolen with all the gear, I know I could walk into a music store, buy whatever they had, and use it on the job. That's more what I was thinking about. Not about the economics of our drums compared to starving people (anywhere). That's a whole 'nother political discussion. Let's keep this focused on the drums, and the gig. Cool?

You can't divorce this from the want/need effect. The point at which you try is the point where you are fooling yourself one way or the other. Saying the words, "I need it to play better" is exactly that. The only thing I need to play better is a clear head or a hot woman in the audience (although, band members might not agree that the hot woman had a positive effect).

Now, the point of a Copeland snare vs. starving people wasn't meant as some grand geopolitical chastisement, but relativity. Which is ultimately the answer to this entire discussion and the one from which it was spawned: context and perspective form a relative position from which all drummers make their choices.

Relative to the situation you paint above, I would dash into a store, grab what I need for as cheaply as I can get away with, and whatever it is will get me by. Maybe I'll even luck out and find some magically cheap piece of gear that I wind up loving for some reason. But mostly, cost and time are my relative considerations. Besides, there is just no way that I'm going to be in the frame of mind to make a careful decision about an expensive piece of gear under those circumstances. And that is what expensive purchases demand.

Relative to my usual situation, I walk into any store in search for the "mystical thing that might be better than the thing I already have." Because I want that thing even if it doesn't exist. Here, my ever-improving collection of "the perfect studio/hobby monster drum kit" and the fact that I don't kid's are my relative considerations. Price is way down on the list, which is how a Copeland snare wound up setting between custom Dunnett ti and a DW solid exotic maple.

Two different gigs, two different contexts, two different relative needs.
 
You can't divorce this from the want/need effect. The point at which you try is the point where you are fooling yourself one way or the other. Saying the words, "I need it to play better" is exactly that. The only thing I need to play better is a clear head or a hot woman in the audience (although, band members might not agree that the hot woman had a positive effect).

Now, the point of a Copeland snare vs. starving people wasn't meant as some grand geopolitical chastisement, but relativity. Which is ultimately the answer to this entire discussion and the one from which it was spawned: context and perspective form a relative position from which all drummers make their choices.

Relative to the situation you paint above, I would dash into a store, grab what I need for as cheaply as I can get away with, and whatever it is will get me by. Maybe I'll even luck out and find some magically cheap piece of gear that I wind up loving for some reason. But mostly, cost and time are my relative considerations. Besides, there is just no way that I'm going to be in the frame of mind to make a careful decision about an expensive piece of gear under those circumstances. And that is what expensive purchases demand.

Relative to my usual situation, I walk into any store in search for the "mystical thing that might be better than the thing I already have." Because I want that thing even if it doesn't exist. Here, my ever-improving collection of "the perfect studio/hobby monster drum kit" and the fact that I don't kid's are my relative considerations. Price is way down on the list, which is how a Copeland snare wound up setting between custom Dunnett ti and a DW solid exotic maple.

Two different gigs, two different contexts, two different relative needs.

Well said!

I apologize, I sorta' stopped at the "fooling yourself" comment, because you're making assumptions of a person you don't know. My use of the words "I need it to play better" was used as a figure of speech and illustrates that I know they're just words. Then there were more words until the part where you said you didn't have kids. Are you assuming I have kids and this figures into what I would buy? Or are you assuming that usually everyone has kids so they usually fool themselves into thinking they don't need the best because they're paying for the kids?

From my read on your statement it seems you've kinda' gathered everyone up into groups by type. And here in Music Land we're all concerned with individuality, 'cause, you know, that's why Will Kennedy would get the gig before somebody like me, or why you'd want Lee Sklar on bass as opposed to Tony Levin.

I don't have them (kids), and did this professionally from age 19 to about 32 for a company with great benefits and steady gigs. I went to college for this and studied and am a pretty fair sight-reader. I've donned a tux more times than I want to admit and have logged seemingly endless hours playing bad jazz in hotels. There wasn't a piece of gear out there that I couldn't get my hands on if I wanted it. When you see alot of stuff out there (gear-wise), there isn't anything really mystical about any of it. I get to go to the NAMM show every year, and even see alot of wacky musical inventions pop up around Hollywood, and alot of those ideas don't work. So I'm guessing my perspective is way different from yours. That's all I'm sayin'.

But isn't it weird how the Copeland snare has the triple flanged hoop on the bottom? I didn't like the look so I put a die cast down there. Made the drum really heavy.
 
Nice playing by the way Bo

You make a good point. Who notices the snare sound anyway apart from us drummers? One of my bands would never notice, but the other one would and did. But most snares can sound pretty good given certain factors. I played on a CB snare the other day at a school, tuned it up and thought it actually sounded really good. Now some of that could have been the room, but we all play in a room of some description right, so there are so many factors that could affect the sound, least of all the, you've guessed it, sound engineer. And when all is said and done, all snares sound like snare drums.

So I think that for most settings I don't need an expensive snare... I just want one.
 
I think we all get what we "need" when we first start playing. From there, at least for me, it's about finding a better quality sound. If that happens to come in a cheap form, then so be it, if not, I'll save up. The only time since then that the "need" for anything has been there for me has been when I've broken something and "need" to get it fixed/replaced before the next practice or gig. Other than that, it's all purely wants, and let me tell you, there's thousands of different kinds of percussion things I "want" to have, but it just doesn't make since to go broke over "wants."
 
Nice playing by the way Bo

You make a good point. Who notices the snare sound anyway apart from us drummers? One of my bands would never notice, but the other one would and did. But most snares can sound pretty good given certain factors. I played on a CB snare the other day at a school, tuned it up and thought it actually sounded really good. Now some of that could have been the room, but we all play in a room of some description right, so there are so many factors that could affect the sound, least of all the, you've guessed it, sound engineer. And when all is said and done, all snares sound like snare drums.

So I think that for most settings I don't need an expensive snare... I just want one.

Thanks Last man, I appreciate your appreciation!

Yeah, I suppose this whole thread is just to make that point. I'm not saying you can't want what you want and eventually get it. I guess I'm just pointing out the obvious. I do want another snare, if anything just to have a spare if I needed one on a gig (I usually leave one in the car at a gig). And right now I don't have one, which is why I'm shopping, too.

But if I had a nickel for every guy who fawned on and on about his specific 'sound'....man, I wouldn't have to charge for my services!
 
I have some expensive snare drums. I need them. It's really quite simple for me.
 
A professional car driver makes it their personal responsibility to drive the best car they can have for the driving intended.

There all levels of drivers and lots of ways to drive, and all cars do basically the same thing. Some just do them better.

I like to always do the best I can, especially when my playing performance is on the line. Whatever it takes... I always bring the best tools I can get.

...and we can surely get away with lesser sometimes. Nothing wrong with that, but you will know when you have made sacrifices. It isn't about the money, it is about having your confidence strengthened and how much you value your work. Your work that goes into making the money to buy something that someone else valued to make.

You set the line of your value.
 
Well said!

I apologize, I sorta' stopped at the "fooling yourself" comment, because you're making assumptions of a person you don't know.

No assumptions. If anyone is making a case that they need a particular purchase because they are convinced that it will allow them to play better then yes, they are fooling themselves. Which goes to the heart of your question, "What do you need an expensive drum for?" And my answer is that justification is always contextual or it is a lie (i.e., when someone talks themselves into a purchase that they really don't need by inventing a context that isn't real). And when I say "fooling yourself" I'm generalizing that to mean anyone's self. Not yours specifically.

Then there were more words until the part where you said you didn't have kids. Are you assuming I have kids and this figures into what I would buy?

No. I'm just saying that I don't. It's just extra info that I used to dimensionalize my personal situation; the factors that allow me to look at equipment expenses differently from anyone else. Again, not you specifically.

From my read on your statement it seems you've kinda' gathered everyone up into groups by type. And here in Music Land we're all concerned with individuality...

Everyone is on a group, even if that group is a group with a size of 1. :) Regardless, I merely painted the picture of two contexts in order to contrast them as extremes. I'm not suggesting that everyone fits into only those two buckets. In other words, they are just examples.

I get to go to the NAMM show every year, and even see alot of wacky musical inventions pop up around Hollywood, and alot of those ideas don't work. So I'm guessing my perspective is way different from yours. That's all I'm sayin'.

Well, I get to go to NAMM every year too. Wasn't that Pearl fiasco of an e-kit a great example of something new that doesn't work? :) Anyway, the fact that we have different perspectives was exactly my point. Why anyone needs or wants anything has everything to do with that one thing, which is ultimately the answer to your initial question.
 
Nice playing by the way Bo

You make a good point. Who notices the snare sound anyway apart from us drummers? One of my bands would never notice, but the other one would and did. But most snares can sound pretty good given certain factors. I played on a CB snare the other day at a school, tuned it up and thought it actually sounded really good. Now some of that could have been the room, but we all play in a room of some description right, so there are so many factors that could affect the sound, least of all the, you've guessed it, sound engineer. And when all is said and done, all snares sound like snare drums.

So I think that for most settings I don't need an expensive snare... I just want one.

Good point. Apart from the fact that you could go to your band or really anyone and compare your snare drums, unless you have the drum tuned badly, people probably won't see as much of a difference in the sound like a drummer would.

But i have to make an exception to this argument. I have one of those beginner Pearl Steel Shell drums that i just replaced a while ago, and no matter how hard i try, whenever i hit that thing it sounds like paper! I think it may be the snare wires of poor quality or whatever, but i think in more extreme circumstances snare sound can be noticed.
 
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Well,... 'I want a $600' snare can easily become 'I need a $600 snare' in the blink of an eye if I can convince myself that it will make me feel good & look good, playing that snare, which will put me in a mighty fine mood, which then in turn will make me play better and therefore my music will really sound good, man.

Your want might be my need?

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