Why do my kick skills suck?

judicialfury

Junior Member
The title says it all. Does anybody else have a hard time building skills in this area? I can't seem to nail the techniques, which limits my ability to do moderate-to-fast double-strokes and keep endurance. And I won't even get started on playing with a double pedal... :)

I'm not a crappy drummer or anything. Like, people always ask me to play with them. And it's not like I never practice. But nailing the kick is a massive challenge to me for whatever reason. Anybody else have this issue? Anybody have any tips?

~ Dave
 
Seems like you should sit down every day and just improve your kick skills.

Practice everything you would practice to improve your hands with your feet, doesn't matter if you would play it in a band-situation or not. It will help you to develop.

you could spend an hour every day doing that:
- warm up: singles, doubles, paradiddles
- rudiments: flams, ruffs
- dynamics: dynamic build ups/downs, accent workouts
- stickings: different sticking patterns, syncopations
- timing: play syncopations, snare solos with your feet at about 30-50 bpm
- endurance: something like the stone killer (rrrr llll rrrrrrrr llllllll rrrrrrrrrrrr llllllllllll you get the idea)

stuff like that. i promise you, if you do that every day for lets say 2-4 weeks you will feel real improvement..
 
David makes some good points. I think you're trying too hard to run before you can walk (or crawl, for some of us). So I would slow everything way down and get comfortable with wherever you're at.

Have you gotten with a local teacher too? There's no substitute for a professional to help you through the door as well. He'll see much more about your technique than we will. Good luck!
 
So I would slow everything way down and get comfortable with wherever you're at.

I forgot to mention that, thanks Bo!
Practice everything slow! In the very first beginning I would play at a tempo that bores you.. That will help your brain memorizing the motions, which is the key to play fast. (Even more than muscles. Of course you need muscles, but playing fast is nothing more than a reflex that needs to be executed correctly)
 
As for slow/correct learning/practicing... My guitar and bass instructors (group online lessons) keep telling us that according to new scientific information, it takes 7 correct (and slow) motions to start programming something into our brain/nervous system. Don't move on until you've done at least 7 correct/slow repetitions in a row. A couple more doesn't hurt but 7 repetitions seems to be the effective minimum that's working for human beings.

My drum instructor also recommends to go for 45 second click/non-click runs as this period of time is another reasonable minimum to get something programmed. Anything shorter than that tends to be not effective. You can do more of course but from some point on the focus might start to shift to something else, it's hard to keep one's mind concentrated towards something specific for longer periods of time.

That's just some guidelines of course. I've been experimenting with that 7 correct motions thing for a short time only but from my experience, it works!

To the OP:
Don't give up, and keep a positive mindset. To practice one's feet and get them up to something really useable takes a lot of time - way more than hands. You have to put in the time and (quality) practice. Stay patient.
 
If you are running into endurance problems, and you aren't sick/ancient/playing for 5 hours/playing at a constant gallop, then you are doing it wrong. End of story - whether you are well experienced or not.

I can specifically relate to the bass issue you describe. Not only from my own personal experience but from my students' as well. I reckon you are making this mistake:

People like to copy their environment, and they think they should operate the pedal the way the pedal is built. i.e. they try to move their foot as if their heel had a hinge, matching the hinge at the bottom of the pedal.

This is usually called "heel up technique"

Instead, try to operate the pedal "backwards". Allow the ball of the foot to maintain contact with the pedalboard and let the heel raise up and bounce, as if you were bouncing your leg at the dinner table.

Above all, the most important thing you should be working on is not speed, but ease of motion. When you learn to operate the pedal easily,you can play faster. Speed follows ease of motion. I can't say for sure because I can't see you play, but nearly everyone does this to some degree, so it is a good bet that you are playing with a unnecessary tension. You have to move to play the drums. Technique is how you move. If you actively inhibit movement with your muscles, it is inherently inefficient. It is tantamount to riding with the brakes on. THIS is why you are getting tired so fast.


Also, this is going to involve developing a good sense of balance. This is more important that you realize (I can tell by the question you are asking).
 
Look up how to play the Heel-Toe technique for Moeller technique. This takes all the effort out of playing the bass drum and turns it into a joy!!! Seriously!

All the tricky bass drum grooves you used to find difficult, with this technique become, well, easy.

Have a look for it online or on this forum, master it and have fun!

TJ @ www.britchops.co.uk
 
Look up how to play the Heel-Toe technique for Moeller technique. This takes all the effort out of playing the bass drum and turns it into a joy!!! Seriously!

All the tricky bass drum grooves you used to find difficult, with this technique become, well, easy.

Have a look for it online or on this forum, master it and have fun!

TJ @ www.britchops.co.uk

Yep, I was going to mention the heel-toe technique until I scrolled down far enough to see this. So, now I can just say that I wholeheartedly agree!

I'll use a popular song as an example: Walk this Way by Aerosmith. That type of a bass drum part would be impossible for me without the heel-toe technique. It's definitely not the only way to be able to play bass drum parts like this, but for me it definitely is. I mean, for example: my favorite drummer is Dave Weckl, and he uses a heel-up technique for this. For me, I learned heel-toe over 12 years ago so that's the way I do it.

You can even do heel-toe double bass drumming so that you can play extremely fast with both feet because you're essentially doing a double stroke roll with your feet. I haven't tried this yet for various reasons, but I have seen it in action and OMG. lol Talk about effortless fast double bass drumming!

Anyway, here are some fairly foundational things that may help make it easier to play the pedals. You can combine any of them to suit you:

  1. Lean back very slightly. Not a lot, but at first it will probably feel like you're leaning back a lot. The goal is to make it easier to lift your legs. So lean forward and try to lift your legs. Then lean back very slightly and try to lift your legs again. You'll love the difference. You can even try this while sitting in your computer chair.
  2. Try different seat heights
  3. Try sitting closer
  4. Try sitting farther away
  5. Change the spring tension. Start extremely loose, almost too loose for the spring to hold on. Then gradually increase it until you reach a point where it's way too tight for you. Go back to the tension that made it the easiest to play. For me, this is a very loose spring tension. Of course, try other pedal adjustments too. You never know!
  6. Try different beater heights. Just like how you you can grip the stick too far back or too far up, having the beater up too high or low can cause similar problems.
  7. Try different bass drum tunings. I prefer to tune mine fairly tight and I also use a full front head for the best sound and it also results in a great beater feel. John Bonham tuned his bass drum pretty tight. You get lots of rebound and a bigger sound.
  8. Try different bass drum angles using the spurs on the front end. This is similar to different drum heights.
  9. Try different footwear (and always keep your footwear tied loose. I've observed that too many people like to tie their shoes way too tight and there's no benefit to it other than cutting off the circulation to your feet somewhat).
  10. Try playing in just socks
  11. Try playing barefoot

Regarding the different bass drum tunings in #7, I should also mention that I use the Aquarian Super-Kick I with the full Aquarian Regulator (no hole), and my only muffling is two bath towels rolled up together forming almost a half circle at the bottom, touching my batter head. With my tight tuning and full front head, this gives a GREAT sound and feel! Tons of delicious low end and just a perfect rebound.

This is all I can think of for now. I hope that this helps!
 
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It sounds to me like things like heel-toe and "Moeller" for feet are putting the cart ahead of the horse.

yes... Before getting bogged down in crazy routines and techniques try this:

If you have a double pedal - set it up with your bass drum, or a bass pedal practice pad.

Go through Stone's Stick Control with your feet:
Start slowly 1/4 note = 60BPM, heels down, let the beaters come off of head/pad...
Play each exercise for one minute and move on to the next one. Play each page of the book for one week, upping the tempo every day.

These exercises will build strength in your ankles - help your control and coordination. You'll be amazed with the results, and you'll be ready to move on to other techniques...
 
If you play heel down and let the beater rebound fully, to a metronome (important) you will exercise the muscles on the front of your calf. It will burn. That's what you want. Once you have dedicated and developed foot pedal muscles working for you, whatever technique you choose, be it heel up, heel toe, or heel down, foot pedal work becomes easier. Learning how to use ones hands on a stick, or ones foot on a pedal, while learning in the beginning, is all about specific muscle development. IMO.

I think heel down and heel up should be learned before heel toe, like Boomka says. That's just an opinion though. And how does one do Moeller with a footpedal?
 
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say (and, you can trust that the advise will work as I'm not one of the hundreds of drummers on the internet asking the same question.) Haha.

When approaching anything speed related, playing "slow" will never help your body understand what you're asking of it.
Another point is that as you increase in speed....multiple muscle groups are used but, not all of them are used at the same time for those different speeds.

In other words...playing 16ths at 100bpm will never help you get to 200bpm.
Yes, it will help understand the space issues (which are more important in the long run) of the notes and yes, you absolutely need to play slower to gather this understanding but, that has nothing to do with asking your leg to make fast repetitive motions....only playing fast repetitive motions do that.

So my solution has always been to start your tempo at the fastest point your weakest limb can play.
So, if your right foot is able to stay in time at 160 and your left cannot....well, start at the point where your left can start and work from there.

Now, after you run that for 30 minutes a day

Then start working on stick control with your feet.

The key to building speed is to do both!!!! You have to play slow to understand the space but, you also have to play fast so you body understands what you're trying to ask it to do.

Nothing wrong with the "playing slow" advise....you need to do that but, I think a lot of drummers automatically throw that out there simply because that's what everyones saids....not because it works.

I mean think about it....would the internet be full of the same questions from drummers all over the world if playing slow was the gateway to playing fast? I don't think so.

Do both, play slow AND play fast.

Cheers,
D
 
Wow, advice from Derek Roddy! I dont think you could ask for anybody to get better advice from. I would say that is as close to the best answer you are going to get.

I think the "play slow" thing works for the guitar, but I was never a fan of that approach on the drums.
 
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say (and, you can trust that the advise will work as I'm not one of the hundreds of drummers on the internet asking the same question.) Haha.

When approaching anything speed related, playing "slow" will never help your body understand what you're asking of it.
Another point is that as you increase in speed....multiple muscle groups are used but, not all of them are used at the same time for those different speeds.

In other words...playing 16ths at 100bpm will never help you get to 200bpm.
Yes, it will help understand the space issues (which are more important in the long run) of the notes and yes, you absolutely need to play slower to gather this understanding but, that has nothing to do with asking your leg to make fast repetitive motions....only playing fast repetitive motions do that.

So my solution has always been to start your tempo at the fastest point your weakest limb can play.
So, if your right foot is able to stay in time at 160 and your left cannot....well, start at the point where your left can start and work from there.

Now, after you run that for 30 minutes a day

Then start working on stick control with your feet.

The key to building speed is to do both!!!! You have to play slow to understand the space but, you also have to play fast so you body understands what you're trying to ask it to do.

Nothing wrong with the "playing slow" advise....you need to do that but, I think a lot of drummers automatically throw that out there simply because that's what everyones saids....not because it works.

I mean think about it....would the internet be full of the same questions from drummers all over the world if playing slow was the gateway to playing fast? I don't think so.

Do both, play slow AND play fast.

Cheers,
D


.....Maybe that's why I haven't got much faster..
 
With all due respect, I still maintain that the 11 points I posted above still need to be considered with all of the great advice that has been given.. Some of those things can mean the difference between success and failure. I mean, I truly feel that they're foundational aspects. These are things that have helped me quite a bit - by just trying different things to make sure that I'm making it as easy as possible to play my pedals before I begin trying to practice anything on them.

I think it's like trying to practice rudiments with a poor grip, elbows too far away from your body, too much tension, sitting too close or too far away, etc. Bad habits and other bad things are hard to get away from if you spend too long in them and they can really be harmful to your development.
 
Look up how to play the Heel-Toe technique for Moeller technique. This takes all the effort out of playing the bass drum and turns it into a joy!!! Seriously!

All the tricky bass drum grooves you used to find difficult, with this technique become, well, easy.

Have a look for it online or on this forum, master it and have fun!

It has been suggested that playing heel-toe can lead to plantar fasciitis. The constant impact of the heel on the pedal can cause tears in the plantar fascia, the connective tissue at the arch of the foot.

I would stay away from heel-toe and learn heel up double strokes instead.
 
It has been suggested that playing heel-toe can lead to plantar fasciitis. The constant impact of the heel on the pedal can cause tears in the plantar fascia, the connective tissue at the arch of the foot.

I would stay away from heel-toe and learn heel up double strokes instead.

I had plantar fasciitis recently from running - it's a real drag...
 
So my solution has always been to start your tempo at the fastest point your weakest limb can play.
So, if your right foot is able to stay in time at 160 and your left cannot....well, start at the point where your left can start and work from there.

Nothing wrong with the "playing slow" advise....you need to do that but, I think a lot of drummers automatically throw that out there simply because that's what everyones saids....not because it works.

Didn't say to "only" play slow. i didn't mention it because playing fast when you cannot even play a clean singlestroke at a slower tempo won't be helpful.
what you say derek is for sure a good method to build up muscles, endurance and speed but only if you got the basics already.

i see a lot of people (even professionals) playing doublebassdrum fast but really uneven and unclean. I'm not a fast player but I rather would play slow but play a fast sloppy doublebassdrum.

as somebody else said: learn to walk before to run.

since this guy seems to be a "beginner" (sorry if i'm wrong) he should start off with playing slow and clean. He shouldn't worry about speed first - this will just put pressure on his practicing.


david
 
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