Are you sick of the term "POCKET DRUMMER"?

D

drum54

Junior Member
I am a bit tired of seeing posts that advertise for a "Pocket Drummer" or state they "can play in a POCKET". You might want to use the term "Good Timing". The pocket crap is just a means to remove any sense of style the percussionist might deliver. How boring! This is why the modern percussionist has turned to arrangements that are offered in the marching band/drum corps world. They require impeccable timing and some very interesting fills that challenge the technical drummer.

So next time one of you fellow guitar players write's this term "pocket drummer" in your add what you really mean -- play the same rhythm for 10,000 measures, no-fill, no kicks, no solos, no transitions, no dynamics and NO FUN! We are musicians -- sure I have a philosophy --- "don’t just drum for the sake of drumming" --- whatever you play it needs to fit the music. A good drummer will help the lead voice (instrument or vocal) push the phrase and set the mood for the music. The pocket thing is like getting a lobotomy or better yet a castration.

I would suggest Keith Moon, Buddy Rich, Ringo Starr, Neil Peart, Jeff Queen and Gene Krupa were/are always in a pocket --- RIGHT they have style and tempo control. What you are asking for with the “Pocket”, (that straight beat no-frill metronome style) many times was manufactured in the studio by the engineer during the editing process.

Music needs to breathe --- put your “pick in your own pocket” and allow a drummer to be a musician with all of the artistic perks you seem to care about!

WHAT SAY YOU??????????????
 
Or maybe it means "plays well with others" ...

Way too many out there are basement/garage/bedroom players with no real concept of working with a live living and breating band.

As a pro level bassist I work with several of this towns best drummers, and all of them can swing, fill, kick and crash with the best of them
and yet we get hired as a rhythm section because we can play pocket, and still turn the music on a dime live.

Whatever it takes dynamics, improvise. solo, usually with little or no rehersal.

Pocket bassist ... all the way!
 
Kenny is spot on. Take the ego out of your playing and you'll find it much more rewarding.
 
drum54 said:
I am a bit tired of seeing posts that advertise for a "Pocket Drummer" or state they "can play in a POCKET". You might want to use the term "Good Timing". The pocket crap is just a means to remove any sense of style the percussionist might deliver.
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It is? I have yet to play on a gig where they were looking for a "pocket player" (essentially just a guy with a focus on good time and a modicum of taste) who were unhappy if I went further and applied reasonable amounts of fills, kicks, transitions and dynamics - i.e. played like a musician. Of course, all that has to happen without disturbing the groove.

How boring!
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That's a matter of perspective. I'm fond of an anecdote about Steve Gadd in moments like these. I saw him do a clinic in Toronto in the early 90's (I think, could've been late 80's) and some guy got a hold of the questioner's mic and asked Steve if he would, "play the most difficult thing he knew how to play on a set of drums." Steve sat behind the kit and laid out 2 minutes of jaw droppingly groovy Money Beat (with some embellishments now and again) that had a room full of 300 drummers bobbing their heads about 3 bars in. Butts were dancing in seats because of how deep he got into that pocket. When he stopped playing, the guy on the mic said, "I don't think you understood the question!" Steve replied, dryly, "I'm afraid you didn't get the answer."
 
I might not be understanding the full context of this, but I agree. Pocket is nice for recording, but live you should be expected to have a lot more energy in your drumming and a bit more variation from the recording.
 
drum54 said:
I am a bit tired of seeing posts that advertise for a "Pocket Drummer" or state they "can play in a POCKET". You might want to use the term "Good Timing". The pocket crap is just a means to remove any sense of style the percussionist might deliver. How boring! <snip>
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Interesting. I think it's an opportunity for us to ask ourselves, "why do other musicians feel the need to emphasize that they're looking for a 'pocket' drummer?"

One reason might be that enough drummers aren't actually focussed on pocket playing?

That hypothesis seems to make some sense, given that the emphasis in many circles is undoubtedly more on speed / licks / drum acrobatics, and less on groove. I mean, as one example, look at the Guitar Center drum off stuff. My kudos to the kids who do that and excel in it. (Really, there's some serious talent out there.) But... what is that stuff really about? Isn't it interesting to ponder how a Charley Drayton or a Matt Chamberlain or an Al Jackson, Jr. would've ranked in one of those?

I've watched tons of Gadd online, like many of us. Yet as I'm closing the youtube page, what I'm often most in awe of is not Gadd's playing, but by the number of drummers in the comments section who happily admit they just don't get what's good about him.
 
I love the term "pocket drummer". It says a lot. Drummers don't get hired to do solos and big giant breaks etc....they get hired because they can make music with the others in the rhythm section. Go listen to John Bonzo.
 
As I understand, playing in the pocket has nothing to do with not putting in fills or playing fancy grooves. Both of those things can be "in the pocket" it's just often harder to play them with the same unity.
 
I rather like the term "playing in the pocket". And it's true - the only reason people ask for it is because they know there's almost a 90% chance they won't get it when they really need it. So I'm quite happy to raise my hand and tell 'em I'll give it to 'em!

I leave the drum solo stuff to the guys who don't mind not working ;)
 
I would be deeply honored if someone who heard me said I played in the "pocket". No, I am not tired of it.

Peace and goodwill.
 
Pocket and time aren't the same thing, a listen to Alice In Chains or STP will prove this.

You have near infinite freedom in the pocket, so how is it limiting?
 
The thing that I notice in many drumset players who don't have many years under their collective musical belts....They don't quite understand that drums are not a lead instrument. Drums have a certain role, a clearly defined function. The requirements of that role have to be met for a song to work. We definitely do not have the freedoms that a guitar player has. We have to be much more strict IMO.

That's great, but some guys think that even though they are technically meeting the requirements, that gives them license to play lead drums...That complex fill that is hard to pull off...could really kill the groove. Actually, if someone is thinking in terms of inserting a complex fill that's hard to pull off most likely isn't giving the groove aspect of the song it's just consideration. Drums aren't lead instruments. Fills perform a function too. They aren't something you just decide to throw in because you can fit one in there...there has to be a good reason for the fill, and the fill has to be tailored and executed spot on...not too loud, not too soft, not too fast, not too obtrusive...One great fill has more impact that 4 lukewarm ones that could have been omitted.

The thing that I like seeing in seasoned drummers is that they think of something better to play than the obvious part that occurs to everybody. (Oh, here comes another verse to chorus transition, time to play a 16th note single stroke descending tom roll, followed by a big crash on beat 1). Leaving that fill out completely is not an obvious thing to do, and many times it will maintain the groove better than the obvious fill. Les Ismore in action..

Understanding that the drums perform mainly a supportive role is a door that most must pass through in order to be what they want to be....a great drummer who is in demand.

We are the major part of the supportive framework that the everything relies on. The second that framework drops out, and it only takes a second, is when the support columns of the song give way. The song crumbles like the WTC on 9/11.

Any 'extra drumming' above and beyond the required supportive drumming works only if the groove isn't compromised one bit. Groove is job 1, and sometimes the only thing the song needs from us. A lot of drummers think that you have to give it 1000% all the time, all go no stop. Simply not the case. A great feeling groove in most cases isn't that brain taxing. It's not boring either. Drummers (as they're playing it) mistakenly think it's boring. Don't ever think you're boring, that is a huge pitfall. Because invaribly, you will play something just to break it up. And that is the point where the song goes south, at least temporarily.
Lead drums don't rock. Restraint can rock more than lead drums, it's backwards.
 
Drumolator said:
I would be deeply honored if someone who heard me said I played in the "pocket". No, I am not tired of it.

Peace and goodwill.
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+1 was told this at practice by band mate the other day "you were really in the pocket on that one" of course he probably heard me use the term but it still felt great to hear it..
 
Of all the threads I've seen here over the years, related to "pocket", not a single person has been able to articulate it in a way that a consensus definition could be reached. Never.

In my mind, I would ask; is "pocket" what some (or all) musicians in a band perceive as tightness (good time and feel), when it occurs?
 
larryace said:
The thing that I notice in many drumset players who don't have many years under their collective musical belts....They don't quite understand that drums are not a lead instrument. Drums have a certain role, a clearly defined function. The requirements of that role have to be met for a song to work. We definitely do not have the freedoms that a guitar player has. We have to be much more strict IMO.

That's great, but some guys think that even though they are technically meeting the requirements, that gives them license to play lead drums...That complex fill that is hard to pull off...could really kill the groove. Actually, if someone is thinking in terms of inserting a complex fill that's hard to pull off most likely isn't giving the groove aspect of the song it's just consideration. Drums aren't lead instruments. Fills perform a function too. They aren't something you just decide to throw in because you can fit one in there...there has to be a good reason for the fill, and the fill has to be tailored and executed spot on...not too loud, not too soft, not too fast, not too obtrusive...One great fill has more impact that 4 lukewarm ones that could have been omitted.

The thing that I like seeing in seasoned drummers is that they think of something better to play than the obvious part that occurs to everybody. (Oh, here comes another verse to chorus transition, time to play a 16th note single stroke descending tom roll, followed by a big crash on beat 1). Leaving that fill out completely is not an obvious thing to do, and many times it will maintain the groove better than the obvious fill. Les Ismore in action..

Understanding that the drums perform mainly a supportive role is a door that most must pass through in order to be what they want to be....a great drummer who is in demand.

We are the major part of the supportive framework that the everything relies on. The second that framework drops out, and it only takes a second, is when the support columns of the song give way. The song crumbles like the WTC on 9/11.

Any 'extra drumming' above and beyond the required supportive drumming works only if the groove isn't compromised one bit. Groove is job 1, and sometimes the only thing the song needs from us. A lot of drummers think that you have to give it 1000% all the time, all go no stop. Simply not the case. A great feeling groove in most cases isn't that brain taxing. It's not boring either. Drummers (as they're playing it) mistakenly think it's boring. Don't ever think you're boring, that is a huge pitfall. Because invaribly, you will play something just to break it up. And that is the point where the song goes south, at least temporarily.
Lead drums don't rock. Restraint can rock more than lead drums, it's backwards.
Click to expand...

Very, very well said and laid out perfectly for the younger drummers out there. I found myself just last week during an impromtu jam session playing to some really nice funky/jazz/blues riffs, you know one of those give me bass line and lets improv until the sun comes up. Anyway after about ten minutes of improvising (which I do love) I caught myself throwing in some crazy fills, I finally caught myself and had to bring myself back in "The Pocket". I am sure we have all been down that road before, no harm, no foul, strictly forbidden in my opinion playing a live gig though...
 
I think "pocket drummer" is just shorthand for "funky drummer who focuses on accompaniment played in a traditional manner".

Much easier to say and the target audience of the ad will immediately have a good idea of what the band is about.
 
Not to sound crass, but I have feeling that any drummer complaining about people wanting "pocket" drummers has never in-fact experienced what its like to play in the pocket...

Like John Blackwell (one of the most bad-ass, over top, chops-heavy cats there is) says, you can have all the chops in the world, but when you find the pocket you don't want to use them.
 
Are you sick of the term "POCKET DRUMMER"?

Only when is used to justify not having chops....
 
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