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  #1001  
Old 02-13-2015, 11:31 PM
AudioWonderland AudioWonderland is offline
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
That's because it goes further than that with Neil. I think lots of us have noticed that Neil is often widely touted as the "Greatest Drummer Ever." Moreover, he seems to be investing in that hype himself. I've seen a lot in this discussion saying Neil is humble and all about the music, but I've noticed otherwise. Just watch "Taking Center Stage" (his biographical documentary), or any instructional or promotional stuff you can find floating around the internet, and tell me he's really that humble. He comes off as pretentious and conceited to me.

Charlie Watts, Joey Kramer, and Ringo are, respectively, the drummers for the Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, and the Beatles. That's what they are known for, and in terms of well-known artistic output, that's all they'll ever be. And that's great, because they've fit their roles very naturally. Each one was there to help his band feel comfortable playing groundbreaking music over his steady pulse.

Peart doesn't do that at all. He has a massive, custom made, intricately painted, hybrid-electronic, bazillion-piece drum set, on which he plays solos that were written by hand months prior to the show and rehearsed, like some kind of recital piece. If you watch "Taking Center Stage," he'll lecture you for hours on how to play certain songs. Then, he'll gush about how meeting Freddie Gruber made him a great jazz player, and how he likes to hold his sticks with traditional grip for "the jazz section" of his 10-minute solos (this is all true). And just by being quiet and awkward, this guy has convinced most of the world that he's a meek little professor.

When you listen to Rush or watch live recordings, you'll notice that though Neil, Lifeson and Lee play amazingly together, there isn't a deep sense of camaraderie or connection between the three. This is understandable, given the fact that the band's entire purpose when playing live is to be as robotically precise as possible. They merely run note-for-note through the songs they wrote together, long before the show, through long, deep, drawn-out thought. There is no human element because they do nothing in the moment. Therefore, each member of the band is ultimately concerned about their part--NOT what they're a part OF. Like I said, that seems to take away from what Prog is all about, and is, of course, ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE when applied to Jazz-- part of the reason Neil can't swing.

I like listening to Rush, and I like listening to Peart's drumming on their songs. It all sounds good. What I object to is much of the IDEA of Peart, the application of his talent, and his attitude. Before you insist that I'm "slamming" him, a reminder that he has great recorded work out there, and is clearly a talented rock drummer. But the greatest ever? Not close.
I don't even know where to begin rebutting this...

You like listening to Rush in spite of that diatribe of things you DON'T like? Rings a little hollow to me. Why would anyone listen to something they take such great umbrage over?
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  #1002  
Old 02-14-2015, 02:51 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
I think the point here is that Peart gets substantially more scrutiny of his playing than the more popular drumming legends, not whether begrudging credit is given for this or that. John Bonham outside of Led Zeppelin would be a very different thing to see. The difference is he never did that.
But the breadth of Led Zeppelin's musical repertoire far exceeded that of Rush. True, Bonham never played in a country, blues, swing, etc. band, but part of what made him and Zep so great was that they convincingly borrowed from so varied a palate and made it theirs. Bonham had the tools to excel in a variety of genres and musical situations. Not so much Neil.

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Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
Peart had the balls to go do a style of music that he had little experience with and is the polar opposite of his strengths. What other name drummer has gone that far outside their comfort zone, particularly now that we have the internet where everything you have ever done will be out there forever to be endlessly scrutinized. No, he didn't light the world on fire but it was competent. No train wrecks. No wildly varying tempos. Frankly, it was better than the vast majority or rock drummers could have done.
Come, come, AudioWonderland, you disappoint me. Let's keep this in perspective. Sure he deserved an A+ for effort, but the results were decidely sub-par. Whether its his playing on the Buddy Rich scholarship project, the burning for buddy cd, or the recent sets with the Buddy Rich band, he doesn't deserve to be on the same stage with the other drummers.

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This idea that "swing" defines drumming excellence is nonsense. Prior to the 1920's that concept didn't really even exist. Its one aspect. Its one style. The idea that it transcends genres and is the crucible of all drumming that defines greatness is just ridiculous.
Well, prior to the 1920s the concept of the drumset didn't really exist either, so I don't see your point. In fact, drums and swing music were pretty inseparable for the first 35-odd years and even into the early years of rock. Swing as a style is ingrained in many different styles of music. It is not unique to jazz by way of hard comping. Playing a shuffle or even a triplet feel is very much swing and is in every conceivable type of music.

You have been very clear in dismissing the opinions of others and asserting everyone is wrong who suggests that Neil's playing is anything less than great. Likewise, you have reiterated multiple times that the importance of being able to swing as a criterion of greatness is ridiculous.

So what's your barometer?
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  #1003  
Old 02-14-2015, 06:36 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
I seriously doubt much analysis of anything was done...
Most of us have been listening to Neil Peart and Rush for decades. Then we've all seen him in footage on VHS/DVD's, youtube, etc. And many have seen him live. I'm pretty sure that a fair analysis can be made via the ridiculous amount of content available.
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  #1004  
Old 02-14-2015, 06:37 AM
davidbehrens3.14 davidbehrens3.14 is offline
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
I don't even know where to begin rebutting this...

You like listening to Rush in spite of that diatribe of things you DON'T like? Rings a little hollow to me. Why would anyone listen to something they take such great umbrage over?
Anything I listen to, I do so because it sounds good. As I said, I think some Rush stuff sounds really good. I'd like to see them live because it would sound good, though the lack of variability would make the experience a bit less interesting. I don't have much against Neil PERSONALLY, I'm just trying to put in my two cents about his playing and why I perceive it the way I do.

But please, if you've only just begun rebutting what I have to say, I'd love to hear some interesting, new, thoughtful perspectives so as to arrive at a more well-reasoned resolution.
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  #1005  
Old 02-14-2015, 07:22 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
That's because it goes further than that with Neil. I think lots of us have noticed that Neil is often widely touted as the "Greatest Drummer Ever." Moreover, he seems to be investing in that hype himself. I've seen a lot in this discussion saying Neil is humble and all about the music, but I've noticed otherwise. Just watch "Taking Center Stage" (his biographical documentary), or any instructional or promotional stuff you can find floating around the internet, and tell me he's really that humble. He comes off as pretentious and conceited to me.
.
So you don't like someone because you perceive them to be pretentious and conceited, and yet you gush about other well known drummers who are well known for having big egos.

Weckl = Huge Ego problems (and he even admitted to it in a recent interview in Drumhead magazine)
Vinnie = big Ego.
Steve Smith= Had a huge ego (although I hear he's mellowed over time)

Lots of well know musicians have egos.

I mean, if you can go on and on about Neil for being pretentious and conceited, then should you have a whole dissertation about Buddy Rich?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The SunDog View Post
You need to check your facts. Records and albums are two different categories. The Stones and Aerosmith have not sold more albums than the Beatles.
Of course they haven't.

Beatles sales are roughly 178 million in the USA, and 600 million world wide. Which are way, way more than the numbers I stated for Aerosmith and the Stones.

If you've read Neil Peart's books, and then read Joey Krammer's book, you realize Joey spends more money than Neil has ever made.
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  #1006  
Old 02-14-2015, 10:17 AM
davidbehrens3.14 davidbehrens3.14 is offline
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
So you don't like someone because you perceive them to be pretentious and conceited, and yet you gush about other well known drummers who are well known for having big egos.

Weckl = Huge Ego problems (and he even admitted to it in a recent interview in Drumhead magazine)
Vinnie = big Ego.
Steve Smith= Had a huge ego (although I hear he's mellowed over time)

Lots of well know musicians have egos.

I mean, if you can go on and on about Neil for being pretentious and conceited, then should you have a whole dissertation about Buddy Rich?
I'm considering it. Buddy was a total jerk with a huge ego, and also an iconic yet slightly overrated drummer. No doubt. His personality was violently mean, and he treated his fellow musicians like trash. That said, he was a groundbreaking drummer whose recorded playing has transcended multiple generations and is still a benchmark for current players.

I had heard that Vinnie was an egotistical, anti-social dude (though I'd heard from others that he's nice), but he's clearly the most versatile player ever, has incredible chops, groove, feel, finesse, and anything else, and therefore is also a much more relevant figure for actual drummers.

Weckl and Smith -- Interesting that you'd insist that they're so egomaniacal. Weckl does come off that way in Back to Basics, but has since matured quite a bit. Both drummers are currently on clinic tours to teach technical and musical aspects of the art to aspiring players. There are multiple posts on Drummerworld about going to a Weckl clinic. Specifically, one user cites his ego-less approach. The fact that Weckl keeps evolving as a player the way he has is the result of his obvious dedication to music and the humility it takes to work so hard to get better for 40 straight years.

I'm not saying any of those drummers don't have egos, in some way, shape, or form. But if anything, Rich, Colaiuta, Weckl and Smith can at least justify their superiority complex in the drumming world because they are, in fact, the best drummers ever. We can point you to Bernhard's rankings if you like, or anywhere in the world of drumming opinion. But it's obvious that Neil, through his playing alone (or what we've all seen, anyway), has not come close to earning the kind of respect that those other drummers have worked for. Yet he commands it in his pompous, holier-than-thou tone.

I'm not justifying other drummers being jerks. I'm not justifying Buddy yelling at his band. Heck, Vinnie is the only one I can think of who can make himself look like a jerk at a Drummers For Jesus convention. But that's more than the ego stepping in. Though he is clearly a decent person, Neil Peart has simply absorbed a bit of the massive hype surrounding his playing.
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  #1007  
Old 02-14-2015, 06:06 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
But it's obvious that Neil, through his playing alone (or what we've all seen, anyway), has not come close to earning the kind of respect that those other drummers have worked for. Yet he commands it in his pompous, holier-than-thou tone.
Though he is clearly a decent person, Neil Peart has simply absorbed a bit of the massive hype surrounding his playing.
What ridiculous, judgmental, and deluded statements.
What evidence do you have to be an authority of his character? Met him? Played with him? Shared a beer? And how do you judge somebody to be 'pompous and holier-than-thou' yet at the same time 'decent'.
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  #1008  
Old 02-14-2015, 06:58 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

I hope that someday, I can be both as loved/hated as Neil Peart or Ringo lol.

Why must we compare drummer A to anything else? Everyone is unique and brings unique gifts to the table.

What's the issue again? Neil doesn't act in a way some don't approve of? He's not humble enough?

Give the man a break, he made a name for himself in the music biz doing what he does. No easy task.

And it must be hard to hear how great you are on a daily basis and not be affected by it.
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  #1009  
Old 02-14-2015, 07:26 PM
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8Mile 8Mile is offline
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Default Re: Neil Peart

"I've never met these people, but allow me make definitive statements about their character."

—This thread
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  #1010  
Old 02-14-2015, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
"I've never met these people, but allow me make definitive statements about their character."

—This thread
That about wraps this thread up.

Love your style Lar.
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  #1011  
Old 02-14-2015, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
Of course they haven't.

Beatles sales are roughly 178 million in the USA, and 600 million world wide. Which are way, way more than the numbers I stated for Aerosmith and the Stones.

If you've read Neil Peart's books, and then read Joey Krammer's book, you realize Joey spends more money than Neil has ever made.
Sorry Drum, just meant to point out that you said albums when you meant records. It's a different stat, records referring to singles sales. The Stones have upwards of 250 million record sales, while their album sales are at 91 million worldwide (paltry I know). Your point is still valid.

On the topic of this thread (before it's locked). The idea of so many drummers with so few accomplishments debating the quality of one the most accomplished drummers of all time is laughable. Like fleas debating the quality of the dog they are on. Like a gnat on the ass of a cow on the side of a road with cars full of people flying past at 70 mph. Inconsequent hardly begins to describe it.
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  #1012  
Old 02-17-2015, 02:08 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by The SunDog View Post
Sorry Drum, just meant to point out that you said albums when you meant records. It's a different stat, records referring to singles sales. The Stones have upwards of 250 million record sales, while their album sales are at 91 million worldwide (paltry I know). Your point is still valid.

On the topic of this thread (before it's locked). The idea of so many drummers with so few accomplishments debating the quality of one the most accomplished drummers of all time is laughable. Like fleas debating the quality of the dog they are on. Like a gnat on the ass of a cow on the side of a road with cars full of people flying past at 70 mph. Inconsequent hardly begins to describe it.
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  #1013  
Old 02-17-2015, 04:14 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

I think I replied to this thread a while ago. And reading the last page of Neil bashing, I feel I'm in need of replying again.

Plain and simply put, Neil Peart is one of the top 5 greatest and most influental rock drummers of all time, PERIOD! Let me explain...

If you listen to all rock drummers out there, and there's alot!.. I'd venture to say that 90% of them would list Neil Peart as a major influence.

Peart does not simply provide a 2/4 back-beat to his bands music... He, along with Geddy's bass playing, defines the band's sound. If any one of you have ever came up with a drum part as dynamic or as original as anything Peart has done, then I'll shut up and walk away never to speak about this again. But until you write a drum part as groundbreaking or creative as Tom Sawyer or La Villa Strangiato among 20+ albums worth of music, I suggest you use your time refining your skills, because you'll probably never be, but wish you could be, as freakin awesome as this guy.

Peart is a perfectionist and his drumming exudes that. If you wanna hear music played differently every night, go listen to jazz. If you wanna hear music played to perfection (as I love to do) go to a Rush concert. In my opinion, there's nothing as beautiful as listening to 3 guys play incredible music, the way it was written 30 years ago.

Peace, Defender
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  #1014  
Old 02-17-2015, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by TheHeelDrummer View Post
People seem to be on both sides of the fence with the fact that he plays everything note for note.

The way I see it, a song is constantly evolving. What you lay down in the studio is the song in its infancy and what you come out with after touring it (many times) is the evolution of the song.

When you play everything note for note, show after show, tour after tour, year after year... you are ignoring an important part of a live performance and that particular song.

Its not Brittney Spears "Oops I did it again" meant to be played as a track exactly the same every time. Its a musical composition that was created with pride and should be continued to be worked on and improved each time you play it.

I am completely not into a band that plays like a cd. To me, its lazy. You are too lazy to creatively expand to what you originally laid down.

And people that say it is too hard to improvise on Rush stuff... Thats just not true. Peart's stuff does not evolve. It is what it is and thats all it will ever be.
With music as complicated as Rush can be, I'm glad it sounds like the CD in a way. It would alienate the listeners.

Same can be said with Portnoy although he did change things up a little bit with Dream Theater...
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  #1015  
Old 02-17-2015, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

"But it's obvious that Neil, through his playing alone (or what we've all seen, anyway), has not come close to earning the kind of respect that those other drummers have worked for. Yet he commands it in his pompous, holier-than-thou tone."

Wow. I just don't know where this is coming from. Personally for a mega star in a super star band I consider him to be down to earth and humble. Can you find any notable musicians that share your view?
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  #1016  
Old 02-17-2015, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Fame is not the same as greatness.
I never mentioned fame or greatness. I referred to Neil Peart as one of the most accomplished drummers in history and the majority of drummers on this forum as relatively (which means by comparison) unaccomplished. Take it how you want. In terms of skill, talent, originality, sales, money, fans, fame, reconition, he bests 99% of all the drummers that have ever walked the Earth. It's rare air up where he breathes. Like it or not.
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  #1017  
Old 02-17-2015, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

Hating on Neil P?

That is just so sad. I think you truly have to be a lifeless **epsilon-minus to waste time and energy on bashing someone who has accomplished so much and with good intentions. Expressing an opinion is one thing, but really... I was surprised by what I read in this thread: people trying to turn opinion into fact. If ya don't like the guy, fine, but please spare us all the negative dissertation.

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  #1018  
Old 02-18-2015, 03:38 AM
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8Mile will like this but I agree that Neil is a fantastic drummer. Absolutely brilliant. I would love to have a tenth of his skills. He also seems highly intelligent and in every interview I've seen of him he comes across well. Billy Cobham is another who sometimes get bad raps about his personality but in every interview he also seems like a nice guy.

However, Neil is not as good as Bruford ;)

(To anyone who doesn't know us and is thinking of taking that comment seriously, don't - it's an in joke. We don't care about ranking and just appreciate what different players bring to the table. It's funny that I should have to even explain this but the web is full of people seemingly wanting to take offence at others' statements, striking out instead of checking understanding first).

Sorry about that. I just came from a philosophy forum - I understand Neil is a philosophy fan too :)
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  #1019  
Old 02-18-2015, 05:47 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

I was a huge fan of Neil when I was starting out back in the 70s in Toronto. After reading all of his books a few years ago, I really didn't like him anymore. He really rubbed me the wrong way. The same happened when I read Daniel Lanois' biography and Jackie Stewart's biography.

As for Neil's playing, I still prefer his musical output pre-1983,
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  #1020  
Old 02-27-2015, 09:07 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart



changing the subject, who can't WAIT to hear these things in a few months?

http://andrewolson.com/Neil_Peart/dr...umkits/r40.htm

the suspense is killing me. I have a good idea what mid to low oak toms sound like from listening to Yamahas but the high toms are a mystery. I'm going to go ahead and predict this will be the best sounding, most powerful kick Neil has ever played. 16x23 oak. just say that a few times. 16x23 oak.
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  #1021  
Old 02-27-2015, 09:24 PM
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Me! I will see them in May here in St. Louis!
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  #1022  
Old 02-28-2015, 03:27 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by carterbeauford View Post


changing the subject, who can't WAIT to hear these things in a few months?

http://andrewolson.com/Neil_Peart/dr...umkits/r40.htm

the suspense is killing me. I have a good idea what mid to low oak toms sound like from listening to Yamahas but the high toms are a mystery. I'm going to go ahead and predict this will be the best sounding, most powerful kick Neil has ever played. 16x23 oak. just say that a few times. 16x23 oak.

Where the Hell do you get a 23 bass drum head? Rich people problems.
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  #1023  
Old 02-28-2015, 03:40 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

That's a beautiful white and gold drum set.

Unable to resist the viral reference,
8Mile!

P.S. Nicely done, Grea!
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  #1024  
Old 02-28-2015, 05:10 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Where the Hell do you get a 23 bass drum head? Rich people problems.
Remo does make them.

DW has been making 23" bass drums fro several years now, and apparently, they did contact Remo before putting them into production.

Now, how many stores actually stock a 23" is another question. lol
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  #1025  
Old 03-12-2015, 09:04 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

Neil Peart is the reason I began playing drums. I will note that Vinnie Colaiuta is hands down my favorite player - and in my opinion - the all-around best that has ever graced this relatively new instrument we all play. Yet I still love, listen to, and return to Rush and Neil for his creative and complex drum parts. I'm a trained jazz player - not that that even matters - but, it bothers me when other people in my industry trash talk NP. He's a humble guy, and is the first to readily, verbally concede to the likes of Tony, Max, Elvin, Jack... Weckl, Vinnie, Chambers, Peter, etc. To me, he's actually UNDERrated. And a FANTASTICALLY eloquent and prolific lyricist to boot. How many kids started playing drums because of NP?! A great man, a great player, a drumming legend!
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  #1026  
Old 03-12-2015, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

I like Neil, always have, and yes, he was a huge influence on me. But i have to admit, i've always been bugged by the hype around him. I grew up with Jazz and Fusion music and always took issue with non-drummers that would say Neil was the greatest drummer on the planet. I laughed watching that infamous Buddy Rich Memorial concert in which Neil tried to play Jazz and enjoyed showing that to die hards that insisted he was the most technical drummer ever. I now just bite my tongue and realize it's not worth getting into a discussion about it. I don't blame Neil for the hype centered around him but the "aw shucks" routine is tiresome given the spectacle of presenting the new tour kit every concert season. His drum kit goes on it's own tour! I see where he has a line of drumming shoes now. When Weckl tried to sale shoes, it was laughable but with Neil, it's kind of cool. Yes, i have my ticket for the R40 tour and will be there air drumming with the rest of the nerds.

There, i said my peace.
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Old 03-12-2015, 06:47 PM
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" i've always been bugged by the hype around him. I grew up with Jazz and Fusion music and always took issue with non-drummers that would say Neil was the greatest drummer on the planet. "

This is the part that I will never understand. So you end being negatively swayed about the artist because of the opinion of people that are not knowledgeable?

I understand being bothered I suppose, such as the whole Kiss army thing for me, but we should not let that influence our evaluation of musicians. And I suspect that if Neil wanted to be a jazz player and existed within that genre he would have been better at it. Its like the complaints that Buddy couldn't play a funk beat. so what. That was not his genre.

Don't mean to isolate on you, just used the opportunity to voice a frustration I have with some musicians sometimes letting genre or non-musician opinions color their evaluation of professionals to the point of ragging on them.
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Old 03-12-2015, 08:27 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

This may be a bit long

First, I really commend drummer-russ and mlf206 for the recent posts, it shows what real wisdom and a good attitude (in general) is all about.

As for those who have implicitly or explicitly bashed Neil, it reminds me of a situation from my own past:

20 years ago, I tried out for a successful, up-and-coming progressive hard rock band that lost their drummer. Lots of guys tried out, I got the gig because they liked my style. 3 days later I had to bow out of it even though I loved playing with those guys due to a bad injury. I kept in touch with the bass player and tried to help them find someone. As part of the new auditions, the bass player would play my demo for the guy first (because he was looking for a guy with a similar style as me). He told me that there was one or two guys who immediately started making negative comments about some of what I was playing, then the bass player calmly asked: "Could you do that at that speed? Are you capable of those time changes?" The answer from each guy was no...

So, the questions I have for the Neil bashers are:

1) Can you do what he does better? Meaning playing harder or faster for the parts he crafted (or similar).

2) Given that he plays a 3 hour show into his 50's and now in his 60's, are you capable of playing as hard and as fast (or faster), and as complex as him for 3 hours?

3) If you've read his books, you would know he engages in several types of endurance exercise, including swimming. Are you capable of similar activities in middle age years while being able to play as listed above and tour on a motorcycle for 50-plus shows/locations?

If you, the basher, answered no to any of the above then maybe should take another look at yourself. Maybe you're not as great as you perceive yourself to be. Maybe you're not in good physical condition as you should be (too fat or not enough muscle tone). Maybe your not physically capable of playing hard and your chops are not developed well enough to be played fast at high volumes. Maybe you haven't achieved career or financial success and it bothers you when others do. Maybe, just maybe there are people who are not into Jazz or are not impressed by it. Maybe some people find that "standards" music is boring. Maybe some drummers prefer to master the genre or style they enjoy, while innocently tinkering with other styles.

The general point is, unless you can do it better, you might want to avoid making bold statements without the ability to back it up.
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Old 03-12-2015, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by JosephDAqui View Post
This may be a bit long

The general point is, unless you can do it better, you might want to avoid making bold statements without the ability to back it up.
So I guess very few of us would ever be able to provide a bold statement on politicians, professional athletes, corporate CEOs, etc. since all "can do it better" than us. That's a great way to eliminate discussion and debate.
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Old 03-12-2015, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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So I guess very few of us would ever be able to provide a bold statement on politicians, professional athletes, corporate CEOs, etc. since all "can do it better" than us. That's a great way to eliminate discussion and debate.
Nah, that's a bit too general of a statement. You can criticize who you want, why not? It's your right.

But as I made a parallel story specific to what we do: if you're a drummer bashing another one, make sure you have something to back it up - or even better if you're a drummer why bash another one? Is there really a need to envy someone else so badly that you have to crap on them. I mean really now... I can't think of one good reason to bash any famous drummer regardless of genre. Here's an example: I'd rather pull my own teeth out with pliers than listen to 3 min. of Bonjovi, but do I have any business putting down Tico? Not really, what's to gain? He's successful, I'm not, could I do what he does? Maybe, but maybe not as well as he could.

Make sense?
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  #1031  
Old 03-12-2015, 09:53 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Originally Posted by Muckster View Post
I like Neil, always have, and yes, he was a huge influence on me. But i have to admit, i've always been bugged by the hype around him. I grew up with Jazz and Fusion music and always took issue with non-drummers that would say Neil was the greatest drummer on the planet. I laughed watching that infamous Buddy Rich Memorial concert in which Neil tried to play Jazz and enjoyed showing that to die hards that insisted he was the most technical drummer ever. I now just bite my tongue and realize it's not worth getting into a discussion about it. I don't blame Neil for the hype centered around him but the "aw shucks" routine is tiresome given the spectacle of presenting the new tour kit every concert season. His drum kit goes on it's own tour! I see where he has a line of drumming shoes now. When Weckl tried to sale shoes, it was laughable but with Neil, it's kind of cool. Yes, i have my ticket for the R40 tour and will be there air drumming with the rest of the nerds.

There, i said my peace.
Everyone wants to point to that Buddy concert as if its the be all and end all. He would be the first to tell you he knew going in he was out of his wheel house. Why do you think he took the time to work with a Freddy Gruber? Something tells me that gig would be pretty different if they did it again today. The flip side of it is, do you really think Buddy could touch Hemispheres? 2112? Frankly I don't. He would probably get through it but would end up sounding just as awkward as Neil did with swing music.

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  #1032  
Old 03-13-2015, 06:16 AM
davidbehrens3.14 davidbehrens3.14 is offline
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Default Re: Neil Peart

I was not aware that Weckl actually tried to sell any shoes. I mean, I know he wears those Otomix things sometimes... whatever.

I don't think people should be offended when other people criticize famous drummers. For ANY famous drummer, there will be a big crowd insisting their playing is perfect for the situation and that no one can ever do it better. The waters have been totally muddied as to what makes a good drummer. But telling people off for trying to criticize Neil Peart or Travis Barker or anyone else is the wrong way to go about it, because no one learns anything. If people had multifaceted discussions about WHY these drummers do certain things well and other things not-as-well, instead of resorting to personal attacks, the discussion would be much more interesting AND civil.

That said, my opinion of Peart compared to other drummers, in terms of various drumming criteria is as follows:

--Chops: Thomas Lang, Virgil Donati, etc. do it much better

--Musicality: Peter Erskine, Dave Weckl, Simon Phillips, etc. do it much better

--Groove: Steve Gadd, Benny Greb, Steve Jordan, JoJo Mayer, etc. do it much better

--Embodying appropriate, great playing in a massive spotlight: Ringo Starr, Charlie Watts, etc. do it better

--Combining all of the above: Many drummers above as well as Steve Smith, Vinnie Colaiuta, Louie Bellson, Tony Williams, Billy Cobham, John Bonham, Dennis Chambers, Gavin Harrison, and MANY more do it better.

--Songwriting: Don Henley, Phil Collins do it better.

Disagree if you want (as long as you can back it up). But those reasons and more are factors that make me upset to see the general public acting like this (I did not make this):



Honestly, I don't care about his personality. I just wish we could acknowledge that he's not even close to being the greatest drummer ever. For the millionth time-- not saying he's bad, by any means. He's a fantastic player for Rush and a good inspiration. But if the general public (and, God forbid, the drumming community) sets him at the proverbial ceiling, we may not aim higher. That's all that concerns me.
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  #1033  
Old 03-13-2015, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

" I just wish we could acknowledge that he's not even close to being the greatest drummer ever."

See David this is one of my points. I don't hear drummers saying that, at least not drummers who have worked on the craft. It is non-musicians that say that. So why does that bother you?

"Disagree if you want (as long as you can back it up)."

Everything you said is opinion. You are entitled to it. Good opinions should be supported by facts through personal interpretation. Your above statement leaves little room for taste and differing interpretations of facts.

For example:
"Embodying appropriate, great playing in a massive spotlight:"

I disagree that Neil does not do this extremely well. What he does, over a 40 year career, fits the music very well and under an enormous spotlight. Ringo and Charlie also do it very well. But NP's drumming is more central to Rush music than Charlie's drumming is.

For the record I call him one of the best and that list would be long and have sub-categories to it because no single drummer does it all better than the rest.
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Old 03-14-2015, 05:32 AM
davidbehrens3.14 davidbehrens3.14 is offline
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I think we're basically in agreement then. Of course everything I say is an opinion. This is a Discussion Forum, sharing opinions is the whole point. I'm just trying to make mine look more substantial.

The reason I'm upset about non-drummers thinking Neil is the greatest drummer of all time is that, apart from it seeming like a mild slap to the face of the REAL greatest drummers ever, I think they don't really understand the depth of the art, and its possibilities. They don't know what they're missing. Moreover, drummers are often influenced and inspired by watching the greats, and I think people can learn a bit more from other guys.

Not to take away from Neil's presence in the non-drumming world. It's awesome that he's inspired so many people to start drumming. He was definitely my favorite drummer when I was just starting out. I think Peart is a very, very good drummer, just not the greatest; and that's fine.
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Old 03-14-2015, 06:35 AM
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Pocket-full-of-gold Pocket-full-of-gold is offline
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Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
I think we're basically in agreement then. Of course everything I say is an opinion. This is a Discussion Forum, sharing opinions is the whole point. I'm just trying to make mine look more substantial.

The reason I'm upset about non-drummers thinking Neil is the greatest drummer of all time is that, apart from it seeming like a mild slap to the face of the REAL greatest drummers ever, I think they don't really understand the depth of the art, and its possibilities. They don't know what they're missing. Moreover, drummers are often influenced and inspired by watching the greats, and I think people can learn a bit more from other guys.

Not to take away from Neil's presence in the non-drumming world. It's awesome that he's inspired so many people to start drumming. He was definitely my favorite drummer when I was just starting out. I think Peart is a very, very good drummer, just not the greatest; and that's fine.

I recall people getting their tits in a tangle when kids who knew no better called Travis Barker the greatest drummer ever too. Didn't make it so in that case and it doesn't make it so now.

Man, let 'em think whatever the hell they want. How does it possibly reflect on Neil (or even Travis for that matter) to the extent that it's prompted you to scribe several lengthy and if I'm honest, confusing and contradictory, posts on a drum forum?

If you're genuinely bothered by this shit then you seriously need to get out more. This level of angst over something so trivial will only serve to see you bald with a stomach ulcer long before your time. :-)

Last edited by Pocket-full-of-gold; 03-14-2015 at 07:16 AM.
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  #1036  
Old 03-14-2015, 07:59 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post

That said, my opinion of Peart compared to other drummers, in terms of various drumming criteria is as follows:

--Chops: Thomas Lang, Virgil Donati, etc. do it much better

--Musicality: Peter Erskine, Dave Weckl, Simon Phillips, etc. do it much better

--Groove: Steve Gadd, Benny Greb, Steve Jordan, JoJo Mayer, etc. do it much better

--Embodying appropriate, great playing in a massive spotlight: Ringo Starr, Charlie Watts, etc. do it better

--Combining all of the above: Many drummers above as well as Steve Smith, Vinnie Colaiuta, Louie Bellson, Tony Williams, Billy Cobham, John Bonham, Dennis Chambers, Gavin Harrison, and MANY more do it better.

--Songwriting: Don Henley, Phil Collins do it better.

.
But you're leaving out historical perspective.

Peart was an established drum star in the late 70's, early 80's.

Pre-internet, no one knew who Lang, Donati, Grebb or Mayer were. They may not exactly be young in age, but in terms of anyone knowing who they are, their careers are much, much younger than Peart.

No one knew who Weckl or Chambers was until 20 years after Peart was established.

Gadd, Vinnie, Cobham, and even to extent, Phillips, weren't names anyone knew unless they drum geeks who read all the magazines. Their contributions were limited to either obscure music few listen to, or studio work where they received no real credit beyond the liner notes only hard core fans read.

It's not a slap in the face, it's perspective.

Lots of people formed their opinion way back when, and just because someone invented this internet thing doesn't mean everyone had to go researching gobs of youtube videos to find out if their original OPINION is still valid.

The average person who declares whomever is the best is speaking purely from their perspective, not a universal fact.

Geez, back in 1992/93, 14 year old kids everywhere were declaring Dave Ghrol to be the best drummer ever, most of whom had never heard of anyone called Neil Peart. Was their declaration a slap in the face to to anyone? No, it's just something kids said at the time.

these kind of rants remind me when I was a teenager, in the MTV era and my girlfriend (for a minute) couldn't understand why I like to Rush because no one in the band was cute.

Most every person who declares Peart a to be among the best drummer is doing so talking from a Rock Radio only perspective, and not from a drum geek youtube perspective.


But there is the odd thing, and goes back to what I was saying earlier, why the big deal? There are over 1000 posts in this thread, and roughly 1/2 of them are critical of him. Read any other thread about any other drummer on this board, and it's handful posts, to maybe a few hundred, almost exclusively positive. Yet Neil gets all criticism.
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Old 03-14-2015, 10:46 AM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

I actually enjoy the critical discussion of Neil, Travis, Lars, and any other worshiped person. Once you achieve that mainstream name and success, for better or worse, you should endure the criticisms too.
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Old 03-14-2015, 10:20 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidbehrens3.14 View Post
I think we're basically in agreement then. Of course everything I say is an opinion. This is a Discussion Forum, sharing opinions is the whole point. I'm just trying to make mine look more substantial.

The reason I'm upset about non-drummers thinking Neil is the greatest drummer of all time is that, apart from it seeming like a mild slap to the face of the REAL greatest drummers ever, I think they don't really understand the depth of the art, and its possibilities. They don't know what they're missing. Moreover, drummers are often influenced and inspired by watching the greats, and I think people can learn a bit more from other guys.

Not to take away from Neil's presence in the non-drumming world. It's awesome that he's inspired so many people to start drumming. He was definitely my favorite drummer when I was just starting out. I think Peart is a very, very good drummer, just not the greatest; and that's fine.
There will always be haters. Such is life.
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  #1039  
Old 03-16-2015, 03:57 PM
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Swiss Matthias Swiss Matthias is offline
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Default Re: Neil Peart

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrumEatDrum View Post
But you're leaving out historical perspective.

Peart was an established drum star in the late 70's, early 80's.

Pre-internet, no one knew who Lang, Donati, Grebb or Mayer were. They may not exactly be young in age, but in terms of anyone knowing who they are, their careers are much, much younger than Peart.

No one knew who Weckl or Chambers was until 20 years after Peart was established.

Gadd, Vinnie, Cobham, and even to extent, Phillips, weren't names anyone knew unless they drum geeks who read all the magazines. Their contributions were limited to either obscure music few listen to, or studio work where they received no real credit beyond the liner notes only hard core fans read.

It's not a slap in the face, it's perspective.

Lots of people formed their opinion way back when, and just because someone invented this internet thing doesn't mean everyone had to go researching gobs of youtube videos to find out if their original OPINION is still valid.

The average person who declares whomever is the best is speaking purely from their perspective, not a universal fact.

Geez, back in 1992/93, 14 year old kids everywhere were declaring Dave Ghrol to be the best drummer ever, most of whom had never heard of anyone called Neil Peart. Was their declaration a slap in the face to to anyone? No, it's just something kids said at the time.

these kind of rants remind me when I was a teenager, in the MTV era and my girlfriend (for a minute) couldn't understand why I like to Rush because no one in the band was cute.

Most every person who declares Peart a to be among the best drummer is doing so talking from a Rock Radio only perspective, and not from a drum geek youtube perspective.


But there is the odd thing, and goes back to what I was saying earlier, why the big deal? There are over 1000 posts in this thread, and roughly 1/2 of them are critical of him. Read any other thread about any other drummer on this board, and it's handful posts, to maybe a few hundred, almost exclusively positive. Yet Neil gets all criticism.
An interesting perspective indeed, thanks for that!
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  #1040  
Old 03-16-2015, 07:39 PM
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Default Re: Neil Peart

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Where the Hell do you get a 23 bass drum head? Rich people problems.
Um.....Guitar Center? Musicians Friend? Zzzounds? I'm just guessing here, but if I owned a 23" bd those are the places I'd look. Where were you thinking?
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