Ludwig 20 x 16 recommended heads

Thanks for your update, Z. No need to apologise. We all seem to have differing experiences with drum manufacturers. See my pics below for explanation of the essential problem. And Ludwig's response - they are obviously aware.

My 20x16 has been back in its box since my last post. The Australian distributor is absolutely livid. They are pushing for a replacement drum. However, my drum repairer and I are concerned that a replacement Maple Classic will yield the same result - lack of clearance to suit head to shell contact and undersized hoops. So, I've requested a Legacy shell replacement. The 'vintage' roundover edge is designed to nestle into the inside edge of the head. I have a Legacy snare which proves the effectiveness of this design. An amazing drum.

Re: my 18x14
I have had the hoops notched. My Remo heads definitely tune better. I have also installed a Gibraltar bass drum lift and I'm getting a much more punchy and round timbre - certainly more than a Jazz bass drum sound. However, the Remos still don't sit flush on the bearing edges! It's a trade off. I could go further and get the roundover bearing edge cut to accommodate the inside edge of the drum head much better, but I am happy with the sound and response at present.

Re: 22x16
The edges are not as glaringly bad as the 18 or 20, but the hoops still show a 2mm gap between head hoop and bass drum hoop. I am also pushing for reimbursement (or credit on the Legacy) to get mods done here. I am using a coated Emperor, which is working well tuned low and flat, but not great tuned higher (maybe that 'pong' sound you mentioned).

It would be worth lobbying your drum retailer about this to put some heat on Ludwig. They could at least offer two types of hoops, or even alternative bearing edges!! The shells are still going to sound awesome. Consumers can't be expected to shell out more cash, just so they can tune and use the drum they way we all expect to!
 
Have you guys given Aquarian heads a shot? They sit a little differently; if you're not digging the Ludwig heads and Remo's not getting you there, it's a possible alternative.

Check http://www.aquariandrumheads.com/products/features.asp for info on the hoop. You may want to take your drum to a dealer and see if you can try a quick pre-fit (without tension) first -- I have a Legacy drum and I can't get Aquarian heads to fit.
 
Thanks for the update. I'm not convinced there's anything wrong w/ the bearing edges...I like them and I wouldn't want to lose the "Ludwig sound". I think the hoops are the main problem, anyhow. At this point I've just thrown the stock heads back on and am playing the drum wide-open. It sounds pretty good but I know it's capable of much, much more...especially if the Remo heads would tune up right.

I've already emailed my dealer and asked him to request a new set of hoops from Ludwig. If I can't get that much from them (being custom-made drums) then I may just swap them for something different altogether. I'm willing to bet the Legacy bass drums will have the same issue as I'm sure they use the same hoops and heads, correct? If not, maybe that's the way to go.

Another option, which I mentioned earlier, is to just buy a new pair of Keller hoops and try to stain/lacquer to match the drums - or have someone else do it. That would cost another $100+, which I'm not terribly happy about.

Chonson: I read your mind and bought an SK1 and Regulator last night. The issue is the same, the hoop sits on the head and not on the collar, causing it to sound terrible.

I'm surprised, given how happy I was with my little Champagne Sparkle kit. I'm pretty disappointed overall, because of a stupid pair of hoops.
 
I've got an update on this. What I lack in brains I make up for with intensely stubborn persistence.

I spent three hours last night experimenting with tuning and head combinations....again. I put an older, more broken-in clear PS3 on the batter and put the 4" ported smooth white back on the front.

Without the muffling pillow I was able to get a *fantastic* kick sound out of the drum and minimized the "pong" ringing overtones. Basically, I tuned it so low that the claws were barely grasping the hoops. It sounded great to the ears, great in the room, and *amazing* recorded w/ my Beta 52. I got it very, very boomy and it happily accepted being tuned this low. In fact it was overwhelming and might need some muffling, at least on the batter side.

The problem - it didn't stay tuned for very long. After about 30 min. of steadily hammering on it, it loosened up and sounded noticeably worse. I attribute this to Ludwig's obsessive lubrication. The tension rods and lug inserts are absolutely smothered in some kind of brown grease.

The solution - I had this problem with my stave kick drum and had to tune it the same way. I fitted it w/ replacement tension rods from TightScrew and never had a de-tuning problem again. I ordered 20 of them for my kick and this should do the trick.

$30 isn't a horrible solution. I'm happy w/ that.
 
Another update...

I spoke w/ the dealer I bought the drums from and he's all over Ludwig to do something about the hoop issue. He told them basically the same thing you said here - the hoops are intentionally undersized to fit their Weathermaster heads with no regard to other (far more popular, major) head manufacturers.

He also reported that they suggested "notching" the hoops to fit. He and I came to the conclusion that this isn't an acceptable answer and I'd surely destroy the hoops trying, voiding any warranty and wrecking any resale value, should I decide I'm not happy w/ the drums because of this issue.

I'll post again when I hear something new!
 
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So, feeling a bit brushed off by Ludwig and frustrated by yet another 2 or 3 hrs. of tuning with unsatisfactory results, I took matters into my own hands. Literally.

I ran out today at lunch and bought a $60 Ryobi 1.5 horsepower router and a 45 degree chamfer bit. I did the inside edges of the hoops as cleanly and carefully as possible. I can't tell you that I did a great job, but the hoops sit flat on the collars of the heads now, instead of on the heads themselves. I'll tune it up tonight when I get home and let ya know if there's an improvement. I can't see how there couldn't be. ;)

It was quite easy and took about 30 minutes.

Here's some imagery...
 

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Looks fine; just like the work I paid for. You are bold!

How do the hoops sit? Does the drum tune any better?

Maybe not so much bold as recklessly impatient? :)

The hoops *immediately* sat like they should. The drum tuned right up and the drum sounds 100% better. Rather than some dead, slapping attack, the drum sounds big, warm, round, and LOUD. The shell is clearly in the sound now and it *sounds* like a Ludwig. I'm now very, very happy with this kit.

The band was over for practice the night I did this and as soon as I hit the kick, my bassist smiled and said, "much, much better!".

The hoops aren't perfectly round so there is one spot on the batter hoop that still touches the head a little, when seating it. I really don't think it makes a noticeable difference in sound so I doubt I'll cut any more of the hoop away.

It was a simple fix and I feel confident in buying more Ludwig kicks in the future, now that I have a router on hand. I also have an excuse to buy some Keller shells and maybe try cutting my own edges, too.
 
Ludwig's response to this problem (that Remo bass drum heads don't seat on their shell with their hoops). It appears that they are well aware of this problem, but the consumer is expected to do their own modifications, at their cost, if they want to use a different brand of bass drum head.

Some one finally nailed it. I have complained here before that a PS3 didn't fit my 22 X 18 classic maple very well and experienced the same problem as you did. I thought the culprit was Remo.

Great job identifying the problem!
 
So now whenever you buy a set of Ludwigs make sure they throw in a Router and not an extra tom or hardware. It would be much cheaper. I have read this entire thread and must say that Ludwigs stubborness is the best reason to buy any other manufacturers drums. That is ridiculous. I don't think I have ever seen Ludwig heads in any of my local stores.
 
So now whenever you buy a set of Ludwigs make sure they throw in a Router and not an extra tom or hardware. It would be much cheaper. I have read this entire thread and must say that Ludwigs stubborness is the best reason to buy any other manufacturers drums. That is ridiculous. I don't think I have ever seen Ludwig heads in any of my local stores.

Yeah, I agree with you entirely GD.

So, I got lucky a couple of times after routing the hoops but honestly, I can't consistently tune the kick drum well...most times not very good at all. After putting the hoops on a flat table-top, they're also noticeably un-true, in addition to being visibly out-of-round.

I brought my mid-level Pearl MCX drums back into my music room and compared the kick drums side-by-side. Oh my...how embarrassing for Ludwig. I tried to remain optimistic and while I love the toms, the kick drum isn't working for me. Maybe it's the hoops, maybe not. At this point I don't really care. I've set the drums aside and haven't played them for about two weeks. Ludwig promised new hoops in "about two weeks" - so according to that, they should be here sometime very soon.

I'll try them out...but if the kick sounds this flat and weak after using good hoops, I'll never bother with Ludwig again.
 
Some one finally nailed it. I have complained here before that a PS3 didn't fit my 22 X 18 classic maple very well and experienced the same problem as you did. I thought the culprit was Remo.

Great job identifying the problem!

Apologies for not responding sooner, but thanks for the props, Freddy. I might start another thread to try get more people on board with this.

I am not spending another cent on mods to my existing bass drums while I wait for appropriate compensation from either Ludwig or the distributor.
 
Interesting thread!

Could you swap hoops from another manufacturer?

Any problems with non-Ludwig heads and the flanged hoops on the toms?

I've had good luck with the heavy Weather Masters on my 22x16 classic maple BD... though I'd like to try Emperors on my floor toms.

Thanks,
-Ryan
 
Here's a raggedy little clip from last night, after I got the best tuning *so far* out of this 22x18" LCM kick of mine. It's still not very good.

Smooth White PS3s on both sides, 4" port on the front. A wadded-up t-shirt inside for the "PONG" overtones.

If it were tuned any lower the claws would be rattling around on the hoops. Both heads are tuned pretty much the same, the batter being *slightly* higher than the reso.
 

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I'm assuming your mic setup was - kick inside, snare, and overheads? And that's a 22x18? Hang in there, mate. See what the new hoops are like.
Are Ludwig notching them for you?

My 22x16 seats an emperor quite well and records with good punch and size. I have tried a coated p3, which was horrible: couldn't tune low and choked. An encore clear p3 (headlocked hoops) worked well: punch and projection. All but the encore sits 2mm away from the kick hoops. When I eventually get the hoops notched (on anyone else's dime but my own), I assume this will work as well as it did on my 18.

My 20x16 remains in it's box. That is a dog.

Re: toms
I am using emperors all round 10,12,13,14,16. Apart from slow seating/playing in time, I reckon they sound great. Lots of tone and punch; floor toms have good rumble.
I am also a fan of silver dots and cs dots. The silvers for a brighter attack; cs dots for old school thump.
 
I'm assuming your mic setup was - kick inside, snare, and overheads? And that's a 22x18? Hang in there, mate. See what the new hoops are like.
Are Ludwig notching them for you?

My 22x16 seats an emperor quite well and records with good punch and size. I have tried a coated p3, which was horrible: couldn't tune low and choked. An encore clear p3 (headlocked hoops) worked well: punch and projection. All but the encore sits 2mm away from the kick hoops. When I eventually get the hoops notched (on anyone else's dime but my own), I assume this will work as well as it did on my 18.

My 20x16 remains in it's box. That is a dog.

Re: toms
I am using emperors all round 10,12,13,14,16. Apart from slow seating/playing in time, I reckon they sound great. Lots of tone and punch; floor toms have good rumble.
I am also a fan of silver dots and cs dots. The silvers for a brighter attack; cs dots for old school thump.

Exactly...that's what I said to myself. THAT'S a 22x18"?

Yes, there's a Beta 52 inside the 4" hole on the reso. I've got an SM57 on the snare and two of them overhead.

Ludwig is notching this next pair of hoops they're sending me. That really isn't a big deal and I'd have no problem doing it myself, again. The biggest problem now is that the hoops are both un-round and un-true. The east and the west side of the hoops sit right down but the rest of the hoops hover about 1/4" above the collar. It's hard to tune them this way, obviously. It's a matter of luck, getting it to sound like a bass drum.

I agree, the toms sound excellent. I have clear ambs on top right now but keep switching out with clear emperors...both sound great to me. I haven't had any issue seating heads or tuning them easily.
 
Wow, this is an interesting thread. What a shame that you've had to deal with this stuff. I can sympathize with you though. I've had a Gretsch Renown kit for about a year and a half, and it sounded great when I brought it home. Since then, I've had a hell of a time tuning it.

It may just be me, but I've been through the stock Evans G2s, Coated EC2s, Coated Ambassador, and now I have Aquarian StudioXs and Classic clears on resos. This combination has given me the best results, but I've been suspect of the 5-lug toms and the fact that the suspension mounts grab on to 4 out of the 5 tension rods, leaving only one that's not being pulled on by the suspension mount. I don't really know if it does a lot, and maybe I'm being too critical, but I've been at the music shop since getting these and been jealous of how Pearl Visions sounded. That kinda bugs me.

Also, these came stock with an Evans EMAD on the kick, which sounds pretty good. I had a SK2 leftover from my old kit, which I really wanted to try out. The problem is that it WILL NOT fit on my kick. It's too small, or the kick is too big. I was pretty peaved when I discovered this, and the hoop doesn't seem to want to go over the head either. I think I would have traded these in for a different set a while ago if my wife hadn't bought them for my as a Christmas gift. You know how it is. To a non-drummer, it always sounds like I have "grass is greener syndrome," trying to justify another purchase when one doesn't seem necessary. Ah well. I don't gig or record, so I guess it doesn't matter that much.
 
Here's a raggedy little clip from last night, after I got the best tuning *so far* out of this 22x18" LCM kick of mine. It's still not very good.

Smooth White PS3s on both sides, 4" port on the front. A wadded-up t-shirt inside for the "PONG" overtones.

If it were tuned any lower the claws would be rattling around on the hoops. Both heads are tuned pretty much the same, the batter being *slightly* higher than the reso.

Your playing is really coming along. Good job.

The kick sounds pretty bad. It lacks depth and sounds really thin. Hard to believe it's a 22 X 18.

WTF is going on with Ludwig? What a friggin shame.
 
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