Keeping big band horns from dragging

Keeping big band horns from dragging. NOW w/ VIDEO!!

Anybody with real experience out there have any tips? I've been playing every other month or so with a big band a friend of mine is putting together. Mostly very good LA session folks. THEY sound great together but as a group the time gets pulled down very easily. On sections where I'm not playing it drops dramatically as well so I know it's not something I'm specifically doing. I listen to recordings and even when I'm pounding away, they're sometimes an eighth note behind.

The last rehearsal had a great bass player who I've played a bunch with before. He was definitely more my tempo ally than I've had previously, which helped the situation a lot but I feel like I could probably be doing more to keep things moving along.

I'm definitely not a super loud player in these situations as I'm trying to blend but I recognize that that could be a potential issue for togetherness. Another possibility could be that I need to use a ping-ier ride?

I've seen these same musicians in other bands where this doesn't seem to be the case, so I'm guessing there's some techniques or tricks to helping keep the band in tempo. Any thoughts? Anecdotal ideas welcome as well. Thanks!


PS - I did a search but didn't find what I was looking for, but if you know of a certain thread where this gets discussed, feel free to post a link..

ConcertTom said:

I'm definitely not a super loud player in these situations as I'm trying to blend but I recognize that that could be a potential issue for togetherness. Another possibility could be that I need to use a ping-ier ride?

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Unless there's a conductor (as often there was in olden times) then your drums are definitely the timekeeper. You don't need to be loud as a drummer, but the ride may indeed be the issue. A group of players needs a pulse, and it might just be an improvement in the pulsiest sound on almost any stage: the ride or hats.

Good luck!

Bermuda

In my experience, the bass player has the greatest control over tempo in a jazz/big band setting. If you can find a bass player who locks in with your timing, the horns will have no option but to follow.

Another factor - I've heard a few big bands lately where the drummer is playing a tiny bop kit and low, trashy cymbals. Can't hear the cymbals at all, and barely hear the drums. The ride cymbal needs to heard clearly over the entire band, so make sure its one with some clarity - at least a medium, or a ping or similar. Save the the soft thin rides for playing in a trio.

I agree with what others have said. I'm betting some or all of the horns can't hear the bass and/or drums when they are playing.

At rehearsals, set up the whole band in a small tight circle. Where everyone faces everyone else. You will experience a huge difference.


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Do they drag it down as a group? The first thing I would do is ask them why the tempo is dragging. It could be because they can't hear you do to the instrumentation, or maybe they feel like you are pushing the tempo. You mentioned that even when you are pounding away that they, as a collective, are behind. Even if you're not pushing the tempo, do they still do it as a group?

Make sure you're being heard-- I would be using somewhat brighter, heavier cymbals-- A. Zildjian, Paiste Signature, whatever you have that cuts. Especially ride and hihats. I simplify my thing overall-- more quarter notes on the cymbal and in comping-- comping becomes more about big punctuations/dropping bombs than in small group playing. Don't be afraid to hit the drums. What sounds blended to your ears behind the drums is probably not going to be strong enough.

I guess there's no leader running the rehearsals? If there was you could talk to him, and he could rehearse the horns on this point, and/or tell you what you're doing wrong that is contributing to the dragging.

ConcertTom said:

Anybody with real experience out there have any tips? I've been playing every other month or so with a big band a friend of mine is putting together. Mostly very good LA session folks. THEY sound great together but as a group the time gets pulled down very easily. On sections where I'm not playing it drops dramatically as well so I know it's not something I'm specifically doing. I listen to recordings and even when I'm pounding away, they're sometimes an eighth note behind.

The last rehearsal had a great bass player who I've played a bunch with before. He was definitely more my tempo ally than I've had previously, which helped the situation a lot but I feel like I could probably be doing more to keep things moving along.

I'm definitely not a super loud player in these situations as I'm trying to blend but I recognize that that could be a potential issue for togetherness. Another possibility could be that I need to use a ping-ier ride?

I've seen these same musicians in other bands where this doesn't seem to be the case, so I'm guessing there's some techniques or tricks to helping keep the band in tempo. Any thoughts? Anecdotal ideas welcome as well. Thanks!


PS - I did a search but didn't find what I was looking for, but if you know of a certain thread where this gets discussed, feel free to post a link..

Click to expand...

Oh man. This is an issue all over the place!

Mostly, it's a problem when jazz cats are on a pop or Latin gig, and the horns need to be more on top, but instead they drag like hell because they're used to it. In any horn band, it's all about the lead trumpet. He/she is the sound that the other horns will try to blend with. If the lead trumpet drags, so will the rest of the horns, because that's how you get a section to sound tight.

So, the discussion should be between you, the lead trumpet, and the band leader. Make it understood that, while you like a laid back approach in this setting, an 8th note is just too much of a good thing, like ketchup on fries.

A bright ride could help, too, but you can play a 10" Zil Bell -- it won't matter until the trumpet decides to adjust his/her time center.

I play weddings sometimes with a pretty heavy trumpeter in town. She'd play jazz 365 days a year if she could -- but she still knows how to be in the center of the beat when it's time to play a pop tune. And I thank her for this after every gig.

Thanks for all the replies so far!

Yes there is a conductor. It's his charts we're playing. He's a skilled musician and arranger, but I think somewhat new to conducting. Honestly, I haven't actually been watching him much except when I know I need something from him since im focusing on the charts (my sight reading is slightly rusty), so I don't know what he is or isn't doing. Do big band conductors usually do that thing like classical conductors do where they're like a 1/8 note ahead of the music? Seems like not.

The horns definitely drag on their own. Like I said, when there are sections that I drop out or drum-less intros,the tempo can easily drop way down. I have wondered if they felt like I was pushing too hard, but in listening to the recordings, it seems to me that I'm pretty close to right on the money. I know some of it is just the nature of many people trying to make sound at the same time, exponentially adding to the sonic "weight" in all aspects, like how traffic builds up on itself by its very nature because the person behind you doesn't know they can move until AFTER you've started moving, the delay of which builds up down the line so that your 2 second delay equals 30 seconds a half mile back.

I'll try using more appropriate equipment for the next rehearsal in a few weeks. My kit is definitely a bop-y kit and the main ride cymbal is pretty dry and trashy. I picked it because I thought the dryness would equal clarity, but maybe it's the wrong frequencies that are popping through and not cutting through the sounds of the players horns. I've got some drums that might fit better into the traditional big band concept as well.

I'll also see how close I can sit to the section leaders at least. Maybe if the lead trumpet and alto are closer that'll make a difference.

Thanks again!

Also, I haven't been really vocal about it with the band so far because of insecurity on my part. I'll work on getting over that in a still-not-being-a-jerk fashion.

ConcertTom said:

Also, I haven't been really vocal about it with the band so far because of insecurity on my part. I'll work on getting over that in a still-not-being-a-jerk fashion.

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That's how you get things done. Ask an honest question about what's going on and they will appreciate you for even questioning it.

Morrisman said:

In my experience, the bass player has the greatest control over tempo in a jazz/big band setting. If you can find a bass player who locks in with your timing, the horns will have no option but to follow.

Another factor - I've heard a few big bands lately where the drummer is playing a tiny bop kit and low, trashy cymbals. Can't hear the cymbals at all, and barely hear the drums. The ride cymbal needs to heard clearly over the entire band, so make sure its one with some clarity - at least a medium, or a ping or similar. Save the the soft thin rides for playing in a trio.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with these sentiments. In my experience, bass tends to be where time tends to lock in to in a big band situation. Which is something that if the bassist isn't really a jazz guy, usually can fall apart really quick. So I'd actually start by talking to the bass player, and seeing what you need to do to get you and them synced up.

I also agree with the cymbals thing, big band and combo jazz are two different things. You might need a ride with a bit more ping to it.

Lastly, it all falls on the conductor. If he's not doing his job and keeping things in check, then you might need to talk to him. I've never actually played in a big band where the conductor was conducting the whole time... if that is the case for yours, maybe that is what is dragging the horns down.... especially if like you said, you aren't watching him the whole time. Maybe it is a case where the conductor is slowing down, you aren't watching him, and they are?

Anyway, all in all I think you just need to go talk to some strategic people... tactfully. Just see exactly what the problem is. I would maybe start with the bass player, see if they notice what is going on. Maybe both of you can then talk to the conductor.

ConcertTom said:

Also, I haven't been really vocal about it with the band so far because of insecurity on my part. I'll work on getting over that in a still-not-being-a-jerk fashion.

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Yeah, and you have to be careful, because to the section, or to the lead trumpet, dragging so much could be an intentional, cool thing to do; or, it could be the leader and/or section struggling with new and/or difficult material; or, it could be a somewhat lazy, jazz combo habit.

Maybe something like: "I know I'm (relatively) new to this group and music, and I dig how the horns are laying on the back side of the beat. But, frequently, from what I'm hearing, the section is laying back so much that they're an 8th note or more behind, which is more than what I'm used to hearing. If this is intentional, then cool, I'll just keep it all moving and I won't sweat it. But can one of the horn players record a small bit with their phone and see if there's too much laying back?"

Horns as a rule listen to your hihat on two and four. Make sure it can be clearly heard ( as others have stated). Your swing beat on the ride should prominently accent the quarter note. Dark ride cymbals that blend really do not work well for Big Bands. Stick definition should be clear. Have two ride sources as well if possible a ride with good stick definition and a secondary ride source other than the hihat.

You need to set up the horn figures so they are aware that they are coming up. it can be a simple as a quarter note played on the snare or bass drum prior to the horn figure.

Simplify yours fills, stick to eight notes or triplets that make it easy to understand where the next bar starts. Many drummers try to do interesting cool fills and the Horns have no idea where 1 is. Keep your fills simple and use dynamics too.

RickP said:

Horns as a rule listen to your hihat on two and four. Make sure it can be clearly heard ( as others have stated). Your swing beat on the ride should prominently accent the quarter note. Dark ride cymbals that blend really do not work well for Big Bands. Stick definition should be clear. Have two ride sources as well if possible a ride with good stick definition and a secondary ride source other than the hihat.

You need to set up the horn figures so they are aware that they are coming up. it can be a simple as a quarter note played on the snare or bass drum prior to the horn figure.

Simplify yours fills, stick to eight notes or triplets that make it easy to understand where the next bar starts. Many drummers try to do interesting cool fills and the Horns have no idea where 1 is. Keep your fills simple and use dynamics too.

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All good points! I already try to keep it simple but I'm going to try and practice the charts a little more before the next session so I can anticipate better.

I really like the quarter note on the snare before a horn line idea. Super simple, makes total sense, but something I haven't specifically thought about before.


Keep em coming! This is super helpful.

You need to rush and scream a lot. That works for me

I feel so sorry for you. I know what it's like for everyone else to drag.

At church, there was a time where we all first started playing with a metronome; however, I was the only one who had it in his monitors because I was the only one with IEM's. The leader basically said, "If you aren't with him [me], you are wrong." To be honest it didn't get any better until others got IEM's in their heads with the click track.

I have no words of wisdom, but I do offer my sympathy.

ConcertTom said:

All good points! I already try to keep it simple but I'm going to try and practice the charts a little more before the next session so I can anticipate better.

I really like the quarter note on the snare before a horn line idea. Super simple, makes total sense, but something I haven't specifically thought about before.


Keep em coming! This is super helpful.

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Check out some of Mel Lewis' work - he is brilliant at setting up figures and plays excellent fills that really set up the band.
The Terry Gibbs Dream Band recordings are a must listen.

Just do as Buddy Rich would do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=covUesgI6fA&ab_channel=MetaSage

Do you ever bring it up in the horn-section's presence? "Hey guys, I've been feeling some sections dragging a bit, I want to make sure that everyone can hear me and nobody feels I'm rushing the beat or anything".

Something like that might get you some direct feedback. I tend to pull out these type questions early and often to keep things on the right track with a new group I'm not used to playing with.

I ditto the section lead especially the trumpet. It's also instructive recognize that are are leads and then there are soloists. Trumpet players tend to have spent hours in the shed every day. You can have a problem, if the section is following the solos and not the leads. Also it helps to recognize the need to breath. Maybe look at the phrasing add a crash at the end of the notes, and at the beginning of the next note.