My drummer uses no bottom heads

I know nothing about drums, but we're recording and we're using the best equipment there is. Except the drums. This guy has an older set, he got in 1970 or whatever. Silvertone I think? Anyhow, none of his heads have bottoms and we're questioning the quality of the sound we're recording.

He puts a pillow in the bass drum with weights on it, is this stupid?

Thanks,

James (guitarist)
 
Don't worry about what he does (no heads, pillow, etc.), critically evaluate the sound. If it is not appropriate, then you need to have a talk.
 
Well, like I said, I'm not a drummer. The sound just sounds sort of lifeless. Like PFFFF.... type of sound when recorded. We're using all the best equipment, shure mics, logic pro, decent interface. To him the sound is as good as it gets. I'm just looking for some guidance from drummers, hence why I'm on here. Is it a stupid practice to not use bottoms on heads? I have no idea.

The guy is a bit older than the bass player and I, we're about 40 and he's about 55 and he's stuck in his ways.
 
I know nothing about drums, but we're recording and we're using the best equipment there is. Except the drums. This guy has an older set, he got in 1970 or whatever. Silvertone I think? Anyhow, none of his heads have bottoms and we're questioning the quality of the sound we're recording.

He puts a pillow in the bass drum with weights on it, is this stupid?

Thanks,

James (guitarist)

Bass drums almost always have muffling of some kind, whether it's built in to the head, or with something added on.

Nothing wrong with single-headed toms either if you like the sound. It's not a hugely popular sound at this time in history, has been in the past though. Certainly worked for Phil Collins and quite a few other guys.
 
Well, like I said, I'm not a drummer. The sound just sounds sort of lifeless. Like PFFFF.... type of sound when recorded.

You don't need to evaluate the sound with the ears of a drummer or even a musician. Evaluate the sound with the idea of being a listener. What would someone (could be anyone) listening to your record say about the sound of the drums?

Also, if you have a short mp3 of your music we'd love to hear it and critique the sound for you.
 
Of course, & quite rightly so, we're all a bit hesitant to offer advice to a (with respect) 3rd party. We'd be much more open with your drummer asking the same question. I'm sure you understand there's a professional respect for a fellow player.

All that said, you imply that you're not happy with the sound, & indicate that it's all a bit lifeless/dead sounding. With very extensive muffling of the bass drum, & using single headed toms (maybe also muffled via tuning/head selection), frankly, it's going to sound pretty lifeless. Some studio engineers prefer this, & build the sound using EQ + various effects. Does your engineer have an opinion on this?

The alternative is to start with a nicely tuned & fairly open sounding kit, then spend time capturing that sound to best effect. Both methods are valid.

Perhaps it's best to ask yourself if you're happy with the sound of the kit when you stand in the recording room. If the answer is no, then ask if the intention is to substantially process that sound in some way. If the answer is no again, then it's time to respectfully air your concerns with your drummer. Perhaps bring the recording engineer in on the conversation.

I hope this helps focus your thoughts.
 
I have never played concert toms that didn't sound like dead buckets. I played this 80's beautiful green Gretsch. It was amazing, hadn't it been for the horrible concert toms. I can't understand why anyone would want them.
 
I think the obvious question no is asking is:

How are the top heads? Are they brand new, or old and beat up?

Bottom heads aren't going to save a drum sound if the top heads are not fresh and tuned properly.

In a thread around here somewhere. Bermuda posted a picture of recording with concert toms, but he pointed out the mic placement was key to getting a full sound.

The other issue if the drums are indeed 1970's Silvertones; those were cheap drums sold out of the Sears catalog.
 
I know nothing about drums, but we're recording and we're using the best equipment there is. Except the drums. This guy has an older set, he got in 1970 or whatever. Silvertone I think? Anyhow, none of his heads have bottoms and we're questioning the quality of the sound we're recording.

He puts a pillow in the bass drum with weights on it, is this stupid?

Thanks,

James (guitarist)

With all due respect, this drummer sounds to me like the kind of drummer that just never spent much time in getting a good drum tone. This is not something you can change with a comment, unless your drummer is super open minded about his tone. You don't like his tone, and neither do I lol. I abhor the single headed tone. Getting him to change is either going to be very easy or very difficult, depending on his personality. Drums are THE hardest instrument to get sounding good. Even if you did get bottom heads...a Silvertone drum...well it doesn't sound like an easy set to get a great tone from, even for a tuning pro. So in my mind, I would rent a set, get it tuned optimally somehow, and use that. I'd say sidestep his entire kit and insist on newer drums with new heads for the recording part. The drums are the hardest instrument to record right. If you have a killer tone to start off with...it's still hard. Getting a good drum tone takes knowledge, well developed tuning skills, and the right head combo for the music you're recording.
 
I think the obvious question no is asking is:

How are the top heads? Are they brand new, or old and beat up?

Bottom heads aren't going to save a drum sound if the top heads are not fresh and tuned properly.

In a thread around here somewhere. Bermuda posted a picture of recording with concert toms, but he pointed out the mic placement was key to getting a full sound.

The other issue if the drums are indeed 1970's Silvertones; those were cheap drums sold out of the Sears catalog.

+1 On that.That was a big question back in the day..."are those Sears drums,or are they real drums"?If those drums are miced properly,tuned well and have good heads,you can EQ and add effects to the drums and make them sound anyway you want.

Single head toms came about partially because it allowed engineers to close mic a kit and have better control over their sound.

If you and your bandmates really don't like the sound of the drums,then talk it over with your drummer.Why not post a sound clip here and let us have a listen.We may be able to help.There are some pro drummers here as well as recording engineers who play drums.It could also be the fault of the recording engineer.

You also might want to consider renting a kit for studio use.

Steve B
 
Sorry, they are slingerland not silvertone. Here's some pics. I've never seen drums like this. No heads on the bottom, he puts this sticky crap on the heads, he doesn't use a drum dial. I mean what am I to expect. He doesn't practice except when we practice. I mean if I was a drummer, I'd have a drum set at home and one at my practice space (which is at my house)

I mean I'm a guitarist, I have a guitar with me at all times. I eat, sleep, breath and sh*t guitar, 24/7. I don't get this guy. I guess like he says, he's along for the ride and he's all we got. It's impossible to find drummers where I live. Everybody wants heavy metal, death metal or cover bands. We do original music. It's tough to find someone willing to step out on a limb. This guy did, but we're just trying to work with him. Myself and my bass player think his drums sound like sh*t. My bass player has been in many bands, some signed to major labels. He knows more than myself about drums. Here's some pics. I'll get a dry, unprocessed cut of the drums and post it here later.

In all seriousness, you shouldn't have to add endless candy over the drums (software) to get them to sound good should you? Maybe yes? Maybe no? I don't know, I'm just asking you guys for advice. You guys know what your doing, well some of you I assume :D


drums4.jpg
 
Actually the drums are fine, they just need tuning and heads. I could get a killer tone from those Slingys. Heads and tuning, tuning and heads. That's all you need.
 
How much are heads. This guy wont spend any money. I spend $500 on an interface to record his drums, I have to buy his heads too and a tuner.

What are good brands you'd recommend and I'll get a drum dial and a book and learn how to do it. If I had cash I'd pay a drummer 10,000 dollars to record with us. Working with this guy makes me want to quit music.
 
OK, Slingerland, good drums.

But as I said, "how are the top heads?" and it's clear from the pics the top heads are shot.
Even if you put bottom heads on those drums, it means nothing without changing the top heads.

See this thread
http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64474
And read how Bermuda (drummer for Weird Al and others) can get a good tone without bottom heads. But also notice, he has brand new heads on top for recording, and mice placement is key.

EDIT: further, see this thread on drum tuning. It's a good read: http://www.drummerworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85449
 
I encourage you to buy new heads, top and bottom, and tune each drum to be in it's midrange, or either higher mid range or lower mid range, depending on your music requirements. The bass drum you probably want to keep single headed and muffled and tuned to it's lowest good sounding note.
There are so many head choices out there, but I will try and make it easier for you. The bottom heads on toms only....single ply 10 mil clear heads. Most everyone here will say the same thing. The top heads are either going to be single ply or 2 ply, clear or coated. That's where you decide what your music needs. The 1 ply will have the most open sound, and the 2 ply will sound more controlled. Coated or non coated...non coated is brighter, coated is warmer. The most open ringy sound will be 10 mil 1 ply clears top and bottom. The more controlled warmer tone will be had from the 2 ply coated head on top. Stay away from premuffled heads. You can muffle yourself if necessary.

Another option, for the recording, is to record to a click, (don't use a drummer) and send your stuff out to another drummer (in Bucks County PA for instance), who can add the drums to your songs via tracks exchanged over the internet. Perfectly fine solution for you there, with guaranteed less agg (assuming the drummer is capable and delivers a great final product)
 
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Your drummer's set is trashed and the heads are worn out. I've seen vomited-on Craigslist kits that looked better. I can tell you it is a bad sign when drummers duct-tape Kotexes to heads for muffling. This is what a set looks like when a drummer has no passion or interest or willingness to work with a band. This is what a slob brings into the studio. I can only imagine how he dresses and presents himself on stage.

Still, many engineers like single-headed drums and muffled, cardboard-sound bass drums, because they then use the original sounds as triggers for sounds from their digital drum collection. So in some ways, this is a blessing. Let the engineer/producer select a drum sound that goes good with your band and overlay that on the drummer's work. Either that, or use software like Drums on Demand.
 
You're buying his heads and he can't be bothered? Drop him and get yourself someone that can be bothered.
 
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