Tactful corrections of band members

Pollyanna

Platinum Member
I'll start by saying that kicking this player out of the band is not an option. He's too a good friend to some of us. Our music is important to us, but our friendships more so.

We have a player in our band who tends to overplay. He is not playing his main instrument with us. Trouble is he is always trying to do things that he can't do reliably - zero headroom. His timing is not good.

If he simplified and just focused on being tight he'd be fine, but he keeps on adding out-of-time clutter. Then he changes things from practice to practice, even though we record everything.

At a recent social band get-together our bassist was saying how important it is to leave space and to just execute simply and well ... which looked like a veiled, general way of suggesting to the musician-in-question to de-clutter. All enthusiastic agreement.

Then next practice, the same sloppiness as though the conversation never happened. Late last year our singer and I tried to get him to tidy things up be he got all insecure and huffy and suggested that maybe we might like to find someone better (Why not just simplify FFS!). Since he doesn't tell us what to play I guess he thinks we should provide the same courtesy (we are much more tight than he is).

Occasionally a couple of us have tried dealing with specifics ... "How about trying this or that?" and he may or may not go for it.

Has anyone found a way of diplomatically dealing with this situation - or can think of something?

Any ideas? It's not end-of-the-world because we're in it for the fun, but it's an irritation because it limits our fun.

Cheers

Pol
 
When subtle hints don't cut it, it's time to be blunt.......blunt doesn't have to be rude either. Just be direct and to the point. It can still be done with a smile and a laugh over a pint.......especially when you're dealing with mates. State your case directly, so that there's no missing your point and hopefully he'll get the message.

Personally, I'd do it this without the hordes though. Maybe myself and one other......no need to have him feeling the whole band is against him (they're obviously not, but it can feel that way if you're on the receiving end). You want him to be receptive, not on the defensive.
 
One on one. Sage advice, PFOG. Damn, I'll probably be the muggins who'll have to do it. Poo.

"Now, X, you're wonderfully talented ... a rare and remarkable genius, really ... but I have noticed a couple of things which could be even more brilliant ..."
 
Well, for one, didn't he play that way from the beginning? If not, what precipitated the change?

If he didn't play that way from the beginning, it might be possible to approach what led to the change and turn that around . . . I don't know, it depends on what started it. (And if he played that way from the beginning, I have to wonder why you guys hired him (or joined the band, depending on who started it) in the first place.)

In either case, what might be a better idea is trying to compromise a bit the other way and having the whole band work on the more difficult, busy stuff--even if they do not need to. The idea isn't that it's all going to end up busier--it's that you're going to help him get his chops in shape so that if he's going to play that way anyway, it at least sounds good, then the rest of the band can eventually back off and be simpler if they want to be.

You'd need to coordinate this with the other band members ideally.

Let's say for example that he plays some complicated ostinato figure or run or whatever over something. Have the other members, including you, say, "I like what you're doing there; I'd like to do something similar or complementary to it, can you show it to me?" Then here's where the serious play-acting might have to come in: even if you can easily do it, act like you can not. Make him show it to you slowly, then gradually speed it up. If he's having timing problems as you speed it up, then have worse timing problems, and get everyone to count out the rhythm together. What you're doing is slyly helping him woodshed the part so that he can do it.

Also, by doing this, when he changes the part at the next practice, you can say, "Aw, man--I liked what we were doing together before there, why don't we do that instead?" He might still change parts, but if he does, just take the same approach again so at least his new part sounds good. If you do this enough, you're going to make him a better player , while always approaching it as complimenting and supporting him, so that you'll at least get to a point where you don't have to worry about what he's doing any longer.

He just might not agree with you guys that "less is more", it's better to keep things simple, etc.--I do not agree with that as a player, either. He also might not prefer to keep parts the same all the time--I definitely do NOT prefer that, for example. I prefer that people change parts, change the way they play songs regularly. I hate being in situations where others are uncomfortable with that, and I'd never be able to be in a Rush-like band where everyone is pretty much trying to get things note-per-note the same all the time. So depending on his preferences, you're probably not going to change his mind about that stuff if he doesn't agree with you.

So if you don't want to can him, and I can certainly understand that, then it's going to be just as much your responsibility to help him do what he's trying to do better, without making it seem like you're criticizing him, implying that you're better than him, more right than him about what the music should be like, etc.--all of those things put the person on the defensive instead. It's just as much your responsibility then to make it so that what he's doing better meshes with the music overall . . . that might involve just as much or even more compromise on the other musicians' parts to come up with something that works that kinda satisfies everyone involved.

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Just thought I'd add this quickly: I once played with a keyboardist and singer who was like an R&B/funk/jazz Jim Morrison--including the acid-fueled unpredictability onstage. Sometimes it could be frustrating, because it could be hard to follow him and adapt to what he was playing and singing, but he also turned out some genius stuff. But the rest of the band approached it as needing to follow him and make it sound good based on what he was doing--there was no way he was going to take or consistently follow advice, structures, etc. from the rest of us.

It's also a bit like the Tout Mask Replica situation--the rest of the band had to figure out what the Captain was doing and follow him, making that the hinge of the music. There was no way they were going to get the Captain to play something more normal at that point. He just wasn't capable of it, for one.
 
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... but I have noticed a couple of things which could be even more brilliant ..."

Ha......that'd be my first approach.

The second would be: dude, you play way too many friggen' notes. Either lay back or we can arrange to have a couple of fingers removed and force you to chill the f*** out!! :)
 
I'd say you say to this person what you just said to us.

As Pocket said, sometimes you have to be blunt.
 
i agree with p-fog, we had a similar problem with our bassist a while back. not that he played to busily but he wouldn't learn what we needed him to. we tried subtle hints here and there and tried showing him little tips and tricks but each time he got defensive and thought we wanted him gone and so forth.

being he is best friends with the guitarist since they were kids, i asked him to approach it and just flat out tell him, you need to do this and that and do it quickly and explain to him we're not pushing him out but he's holding up progress and if he needs us to help cool but the change needs to be made.

couple weeks later he was starting to fall in line right where we needed him.
 
Good luck with trying to change the way a person plays, it's as deeply ingrained as their personality. If he got huffy in the past, he'll probably get huffy in the future. Which is OK as long as he changes. I have no real advice to offer except approach it honestly. Something like, "we are all in agreement that there are things that you play that do not work with this band. We really need you to change them, because it's causing problems. Do you think you are able to do that?"

Let it be on him to say he if can or can't. If he says he can, that's when you stop the song when he reverts back to his old ways and call him on it. He will either change or quit. If he stays the same, then you have the option to say, "but you said you could do this.." Make him agree to it and hold him to it.
 
Hey Pol, it's a difficult situation - how about recording your practice sessions and then have a dedicated "listen back" session to review what works and what doesn't.... the old saying is "the tape doesn't lie". You may only need to highlight a couple of the "misses" to get the point across - good luck
 
My first guess is that this is a guitarist.

Pocket got to the good advice first. However, It seems like what was causing this over-playing is unclear. Maybe he doesn't understand the principle of groove? Maybe his ego is kind of big. Whatever it is, it really needs to be fixed if he's ruining the tightosity of the band.

Be blunt, don't be mean, be completely honest. If he can't take it, then that's one of his faults.
 
Thanks guys interesting replies.

Brew, yes, I think he is looking to be "more sophisticated" in his playing. This would be fine if he could execute accurately, but he can't.

I think this is because, as CHS pointed out, he doesn't "get" groove. He is a highly intelligent, cerebral guy and I think it's all in his head and not in his body. I almost never see him tapping his foot or swaying as he plays. I might pursue the idea of groove with the band more (another treble player in the group could do with this as well).

Funny thing, how some musicians think that placement of notes is simply a matter of putting them in more-or-less the right place. If they try to play things that stretch them then all they will do is place the notes rather than really play them

PFOG, he is an old friend and |'m not inclined to chop off his fingers (yet).

Hercules, the listen back session is food for thought ...
 
I'll trade you for a Stick-In-The-Mud bass player that I have to deal with!

I think of it this way, When I die, I know that I'm going to heaven, Because I've already been to hell!

There is no tactful way to tell someone that they suck!
It won't help anyway, If you tell him, He will still suck, He will just try harder not to suck!
The harder that he tries, the more he will suck!
He will then be overwhelmed with self conscious reservations from trying to hard not to suck.
I know from first hand experience.

You have heard the bassist that I speak of play.
 
Yeah, I have heard him, Bob. The player in our band is nowhere near as tragic so no swaps, young fella. Just as well he's a bassist, eh? A vocalist or drummer like that would render a band non-functional ...
 
I just crated Phil the bassist up and I shipped him to you.
He is my gift to you so no need to send me a lame musician in return.
I put him in a box with no air holes and I sent him on a slow boat!
He should arrive at your door in about a month.
 
The record & playback suggestion's the best way forward imo. Arrange a band listen. Highlight a few of his worst excesses, but be sure to include a few from others too. Make him feel part of a collective band improvement drive! Clever editing & presentation is the key. Hold all band members to their promise to clear out the clutter so the band can deliver a clean clear message. If he feels he's part of the solution, not part of the problem, you'll probably get your way.

If that fails, it's Bob's tractor I'm afraid.
 
Has anyone found a way of diplomatically dealing with this situation - or can think of something?

Pol, I think some things in this world just aren't fixable or have politically acceptable solutions.

You can't really fix insecurity, lack of maturity, lack of taste, listening skills or the lack of sheer playing skills.

Constant overplaying is a sure sign lack of maturity, listening skills, cluttered playing and sloppiness is lack of musicianship skills.

The core issue really is, does HE realize what he's doing?
If he does and is secretly hoping no one notices or is mean enough to point it out, you might have a small chance of improvement. Heck, I've been in situations where I'm way out of my league and in over my head and have sounded like the musical equivalent of a jackass. Good thing was I did realize I was being one though, soon afterwards.

If he doesn't, then I'm afraid its a lost cause, and you might as well grit your teeth and enjoy his friendship.

Great story about 'overdoing it'...

Halfway through the recording of 'Thriller' the Sony Music execs realized they were sitting on a gold mine and started to ride Quincy Jones about the arrangements.
When one of them asked him why there was " all this empty space" in the opening groove of Billie Jean, Quincy replied " I'm leaving a little room for God" .

How's that for diplomacy?

...
 
Pol, I think some things in this world just aren't fixable or have politically acceptable solutions.

You can't really fix insecurity, lack of maturity, lack of taste, listening skills or the lack of sheer playing skills.

Constant overplaying is a sure sign lack of maturity, listening skills, cluttered playing and sloppiness is lack of musicianship skills.

Sadly, this is my gut feeling. Yet he's so mature in the rest of his life ... his weak listening skills and overplaying are out of character. I think Meg has shown us that lack of playing skills is no barrier to being tight. You just need to know your limitations, but that means acknowledging them first ...

My guess is there's friction between the musical idealism of his youth and his current lack of time for private practice. So he always seems a bit anxious when he plays - trying to do the double somersault with triple pike as he expects of himself, but with nowhere near enough time to practice on what is one of his secondary instruments.

Last Thurs we had an unplugged practice (such a misnomer ... amplified acoustic instruments :) He's sitting near me on a box with castor wheels. His left foot was jiggling on one of the castors making a helluva racket to me, given that I'm playing brushes with just snare, djembe & cymbal. After a while I gently asked him to stop making the noise and he seemed surprised. He was so wound up that his busy mind was blocking his ears.

In another song he was to do a solo following on from another solo. The other player played a different solo to usual because he was on acoustic guitar ... Mr X leaps into his solo totally trampling the ending line of the previous solo - sort of like Bob's tractor.


In another, a highly ethereal tune, he chose a staccato voice which he plays out of time.

Last Thurs I suggested he play a washy, legato sound and he said no, it would be too muddy with the other instruments. This is after I'd sent around a copy of the tune we played a couple of weeks ago while he was on hols, where I dubbed an old ambient piece I did decades ago over the end passage ... and it (flukily) sounded spot on. I didn't say "We should do it like this", which would have been uncool, but "Hey, listen to how this turned out - amazed!" (which I was).

If I was in his shoes I would have gone "Cool! I'm stealing that!".

I have attached the ending of that version plus last week's one - in one 2-minute file - so you can see where I'm coming from (bear in mind that in the 2nd version I was using a 10" djembe as a faux timpani as opposed to my usual 12 x 5" tom haha).

I'm not crazy, am I?? The ambient sound in the first ending is about 100x better than the dinky harpsichord in the second ending, yes???

How do you get someone to listen? Maybe I should periodically send him John Cage compositions?

Will try to arrange band listening sessions for what it's worth. Andy - I'm not inclined to turn my old friend into compost with Bob's instrument of death ... yet :)

Sorry about the long rave but I need some objective ears to say, yes Polly you are not mad and your ears aren't playing tricks on you.



Great story about 'overdoing it'...

Halfway through the recording of 'Thriller' the Sony Music execs realized they were sitting on a gold mine and started to ride Quincy Jones about the arrangements.
When one of them asked him why there was " all this empty space" in the opening groove of Billie Jean, Quincy replied " I'm leaving a little room for God" .

How's that for diplomacy?

Haha, nice, but it wouldn't wash in a band full of science-heads! Be nice if we had to ask him to play more notes. Closest we had was in '81 where we had a singer who wouldn't sing up and project, even though she had a fine voice, good pitching and her own special vibe.

Go figure(s) ...
 

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In another, a highly ethereal tune, he chose a staccato voice which he plays out of time.

Last Thurs I suggested he play a washy, legato sound and he said no, it would be too muddy with the other instruments. This is after I'd sent around a copy of the tune we played a couple of weeks ago while he was on hols, where I dubbed an old ambient piece I did decades ago over the end passage ... and it (flukily) sounded spot on. I didn't say "We should do it like this", which would have been uncool, but "Hey, listen to how this turned out - amazed!" (which I was).

If I was in his shoes I would have gone "Cool! I'm stealing that!".

I have attached the ending of that version plus last week's one - in one 2-minute file - so you can see where I'm coming from (bear in mind that in the 2nd version I was using a 10" djembe as a faux timpani as opposed to my usual 12 x 5" tom haha).

I'm not crazy, am I?? The ambient sound in the first ending is about 100x better than the dinky harpsichord in the second ending, yes???

First off, I'm loving these wide open spaces some of your tune have, Pol. I'd love to jam with some cymbals and rods on that track! Nice.
And, no you're not crazy. The difference between the two is obvious and he's just the way you described him.
 
First off, I'm loving these wide open spaces some of your tune have, Pol. I'd love to jam with some cymbals and rods on that track! Nice.
And, no you're not crazy. The difference between the two is obvious and he's just the way you described him.

Phew! Thanks Abe. Sometimes my grip on reality is tenuous :) not unusual that something I thought was totally obvious turns out to be wrong.

Yeah, I love playing that song - until the end my drumming is all just textures - space, cymbal washes and faux timpani BRRRRR rolls with mallets. As a matter of interest, what would you be getting up to with rods in the song?

But, like I said, if I was in his situation I'd be happily ripping off the ambient lines and I find his approach hard to fathom. I'm guessing that it's because he's keen on folk music and early guitar blues, which often has no percussion at all. We have very different musical mindsets.
 
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