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  #161  
Old 09-26-2010, 01:50 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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Sometimes timpanists wing it too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arqvnp6yUCg

:)

And I can't see this guy being at a loss without a black page in front of him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQHNsT5OQhY
The first one has happened to me a few times. Hell, last night I was playing a review show and the MD had put our books together for us and I didn't bother to double-check his work. He's usually very reliable.

Anyway, Act The Second and we're to do "Mr. Cellophane" from Chicago. I look at my chart and realise that I have only one of two pages. So while the rest of the band is doing the rubato section at the beginning, I'm leaned down behind the drums rifling through my folder for the second page. I didn't find it before my first entrance, so I played my bit, and during the second drumless section of 20 or 30 bars I kept digging and managed to get it up on the stand with a couple of measures to spare. Good times!
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  #162  
Old 09-26-2010, 02:02 PM
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The first one has happened to me a few times. Hell, last night I was playing a review show and the MD had put our books together for us and I didn't bother to double-check his work. He's usually very reliable.

Anyway, Act The Second and we're to do "Mr. Cellophane" from Chicago. I look at my chart and realise that I have only one of two pages. So while the rest of the band is doing the rubato section at the beginning, I'm leaned down behind the drums rifling through my folder for the second page. I didn't find it before my first entrance, so I played my bit, and during the second drumless section of 20 or 30 bars I kept digging and managed to get it up on the stand with a couple of measures to spare. Good times!
Ha ha, awesome.

This gig is available to readers. This isn't advanced physics people. Reading is an advantage. Was Shakespear hampered by being literate?

If I had a cent for every idiotic post on the net I would be the richest man on earth.
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  #163  
Old 09-26-2010, 03:23 PM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

I just realized that in the time that it takes to read this whole thread
A person could learn how to read drum notation!
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Old 09-26-2010, 03:56 PM
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  #164  
Old 09-26-2010, 04:11 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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Forget it kids don't buy this crock of s.... and those trying to convince you of this so called "truth". What works for them {if indeed true, being the internet} does NOT apply to all in the real world from my many years of experience on the subject as well as my experience with many others I also know in this business.

Thanks for reading.....
Amen, Stan. Amen.

Thanks for writing.
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  #165  
Old 09-26-2010, 04:27 PM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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BR - That's right. But, I think it's very important that you read. I think you should read in order to know what the chart is all about. But, I don't think any arranger should ever write a drum part for a drummer because if a drummer can't create his own Interpretation of the chart and he plays everything that's written, he becomes mechanical; he has no freedom.
This quote is causing plenty of controversy, but in fairness to Stickit, it's a quote he's attributing to Buddy Rich.

He's said a lot, but I don't think he's sticking his hand up for this one.

Stickit, just 'cos Buddy said it, doesn't mean I'm buying it. He said not to play matched grip too.....for reasons so dinky that I paid no attention there either. It's worth remembering that some people are so naturally gifted that normal principles of learning progression don't really apply. Their learning experience is so vastly removed from the rest of us. And because things come so easily to them they can't really grasp the concept of why others can't. Buddy's a shining example.......but it doesn't mean he's always right. Despite what Buddy says, I'd still tell a young drummer to learn to read.
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  #166  
Old 09-26-2010, 05:09 PM
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I've played lots of poker, and what's happening right is something that would always anger me at a poker table. Someone at the table is belittling a human because of their horrible approach and technique to the game of poker. I know it's music, and there shouldn't be competition, but there is, and frankly I'm happy with having a lot of drummers who believe that they've achieved the apex in "caring" about drumming and are crazy "serious" who think that their formula for achieving musical success is better than those already doing what they wish they were doing.

Why spend so much time trying to fix what years and years of bad mental training have done to someone? They'll figure it out on their own when their goals aren't being met, or they'll never understand it, and I can start getting more gigs.

Since my reading sucks, I'm hoping all professional drummers can come together and say that reading isn't necessary and a stupid habit that will hurt drummers professional careers. Then behind the scenes I'll keep studying my ass off so that I can get better gigs. I really need the cash and have nothing else. Can we all do this for me?
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  #167  
Old 09-26-2010, 05:13 PM
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The rules to everyone else don't apply to Buddy. He learned musical notes before he learned the alphabet. When you're that comfortable and competent with the language, it doesn't need to be written. Sort of like how people can still speak without ever practicing their own reading in books (come on people, I know we don't open books with words). :)
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  #168  
Old 09-26-2010, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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Actually, Mr. Clean is the perfect example of a song you need to know how to read music for, if you haven't heard the recording. There is a drum tacet towards then end of the song and if you miss it, people tend to get a little peeved. That song occasionally makes it into the setlist when we play with the horn section.

Here is a questions to non-readers: what do you do if there ISN'T a recording of the song you are supposed to play? How about if there is a recording but you show up to a rehearsal and you don't have access to a recording when the band leader hands you a piece of music?
I think the point is that most non readers don't sit in or dep, they play in bands where they are part of the song writing and as such learn/create the song along with the rest of the band... Usually there isn't a band leader

I still do this with my bands, I very seldom chart anything, only if the part I have written is going to be tricky to remember, but I never play with a chart, I just remember the songs.

Sight reading is definitely a skill and valuable to anyone who wants to more than merely work with their band, but in all the bands I have played over the years, I have never been in one where any music is charted, the music never existed before we wrote it. I currently play in a band with a guitarist who also plays in a band that tours the world regularly. He has never asked me to read a chart, in fact when I started notating a few parts he was surprised.

But you are right that if I wanted to dep I would probably have to read form a chart.

I think there is a different mind set for musicians. Some see their role as session musicians, working with a MD or from charts, others as a musician as a band member, which has a certain freedom and never charts.

Is one more worthy than the other...? of course not, we are all playing music and that's what we are doing it for right?
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  #169  
Old 09-26-2010, 06:30 PM
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Now I love this one.

"I don't think any arranger should ever write a drum part for a drummer because if a drummer can't create his own Interpretation of the chart and he plays everything that's written, he becomes mechanical; he has no freedom."
If you can't even read do you think any of those musicians you deride give a rip about your silly opinion?

Wow, do you guys seriously think I said these things? You're pulling my leg right?
These were quotes I took directly from a Modern Drummer interview with Buddy Rich.
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  #170  
Old 09-26-2010, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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Amen, Stan. Amen.

Thanks for writing.
As you know yourself the pro situation I descibed from last night I was involved in goes on with others at any given time ANYWHERE in the world.... that's the norm. Holding up the RARE exceptions as the norm or trying to play games with creating smoke around what the majority of pros deal with especially what well paid freelance musicians are doing and dealing with on a regular basis is doing NO ONE any service. Especially for the younger developing players who read this garbage and believe the crock that it can all come to be without an ounce of reading skills or the related interpretive experience combined with it but with just the mere splinkling of some magic fairy dust or such instead.

Forget trying to play the misguided ignorance to not read card based on my truly amazing natural talent "will get me through anything" mantra and story by hiding the real truth on the issue here for many actually out there doing it because it won't make it past my door and I suspect many other pros who also know the true deal from experience in real life such as yourself Boomka.
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  #171  
Old 09-26-2010, 08:08 PM
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Anyway, Act The Second and we're to do "Mr. Cellophane" from Chicago.
Gah- there's a title from my nightmares. I always prided myself on being able to take cheezy music in stride- "Red Sails in the Sunset", "Fascination", anything- until they started throwing crap like that at me. I have to say the quality of the bad music has gone straight to hell since theater people started taking over these musical direction gigs.
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  #172  
Old 09-26-2010, 08:26 PM
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Gah- there's a title from my nightmares. I always prided myself on being able to take cheezy music in stride- "Red Sails in the Sunset", "Fascination", anything- until they started throwing crap like that at me. I have to say the quality of the bad music has gone straight to hell since theater people started taking over these musical direction gigs.
I like Musicals, and I don't care who knows it! I am what I am - as the man said. ;)

And it is a West End review show and they wanted a solo for one of the male vocalists in the second half, so that seemed to work. Chicago is actually kind of a cool show, IMO. But it's a really visual show, Fosse set the bar on that. I make a good amount of my living playing cheesy theatre music like that. There's some great stuff in shows: e.g. West Side Story sounds as cool today as it did in '57, I'd wager, and some of the newer shows have some fantastic music in them, like Wicked. There have been some fantastic re-writes/arrangements in the last few years, too. The new Crazy For You is a bit of a bear to play, but it's really great.I haven't ever done Lion King, but Tommy Igoe cooked up some brilliant parts for that. There are lots of good shows, but they don't always produce memorable, hummable hits that sell. What else is new? So I hear you, there's some schlock out there.

It's the same in any genre, I guess. I know from friends on the symphonic side that they usually pull straws to see who gets the honour of playing snare on Bolero when it comes up, if they don't just hand it straight to the junior guy on the totem pole. Fourteen-and-a-half minutes of sheer pleasure, that one.

Last edited by Boomka; 09-26-2010 at 08:55 PM.
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  #173  
Old 09-26-2010, 09:01 PM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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As you know yourself the pro situation I descibed from last night I was involved in goes on with others at any given time ANYWHERE in the world.... that's the norm. Holding up the RARE exceptions as the norm or trying to play games with creating smoke around what the majority of pros deal with especially what well paid freelance musicians are doing and dealing with on a regular basis is doing NO ONE any service. Especially for the younger developing players who read this garbage and believe the crock that it can all come to be without an ounce of reading skills or the related interpretive experience combined with it but with just the mere splinkling of some magic fairy dust or such instead.

Forget trying to play the misguided ignorance to not read card based on my truly amazing natural talent "will get me through anything" mantra and story by hiding the real truth on the issue here for many actually out there doing it because it won't make it past my door and I suspect many other pros who also know the true deal from experience in real life such as yourself Boomka.
Whereas I except that your skills are indeed the skills needed to do the type of playing that you do, and it does take a lot of skill, there are many other musicians who have earnt very well without needing to read music. As I stated earlier, those musicians generally being in rock/pop groups. They have made very good careers and contributed some really, in my mind, important music that I love listening to and have so been influenced by.

As for anyone who reads this thread coming away thinking that reading music is a bad thing, well I doubt that, the points made here by yourself and others have been very enlightening for any drummer starting out, well thought out and with some very interesting perspectives that I, and I'm sure others, appreciate and welcome.

I have been thinking a lot about this. I love classical music, we have radio 3 here in the UK which is dedicated to classical music. It fires me up like I can't explain, some classical music I find far out and too amazing for words... but as a percussionist I don't want to play it, as a clarinetist I probably would. My other half has asked why I don't do classical gigs, and I reply that it is not what I want to do. Now I do read and I am sure if I spent a little time brushing up on my sight reading skills I would be able to play those gigs, but it just isn't why I wanted to play drums... I want to be in a rock and roll band... I don't need to read for this, I make money doing this, as well as other musical things.

So although I do read, lots of stuff I do I don't need to read to do it. But I would never knock reading as some of the music I love is created by people who have read it!

I should also say that when I am writing pieces for school ensembles, I push the reading side. Friday of last week I put music in front of kids who had never read before and got them all playing together within minutes, which would have taken a lot longer if I had not used charts. Reading is not rocket science, it just takes a bit of dedication.
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  #174  
Old 09-26-2010, 09:15 PM
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I love it when someone says If I brushed up a bit I could play an orchestra gig. HAHAHAHA!!!!! Well to even get the gig you'd have to audition on pieces most people couldn't even begin to understand. Check out the Delecluse snare stuff some time, not even mentioning the mallet exerpts and then there are the timpani exerpts. It takes a lot of skill and practice to even get the job to play the triangle for 1 note every 150 measures. And on top of that to even get a chance at the audition your resume had at the very least include a degree from one of the top schools. Julliard, Manhattan, Curtis, Eastman, New England,Indiana, North Western...........

I love the total cluelessness of some people.
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  #175  
Old 09-26-2010, 09:25 PM
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Well, there are orchestra gigs and there are orchestra gigs...

I'm not a symphonic player by any stretch, but I've done some orchestra work with local orchestras, etc. Of course, I have the utmost respect for the players who actually do that stuff for a living. You're right that it takes an incredible amount of talent and preparation.
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  #176  
Old 09-26-2010, 09:27 PM
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I love it when someone says If I brushed up a bit I could play an orchestra gig. HAHAHAHA!!!!! Well to even get the gig you'd have to audition on pieces most people couldn't even begin to understand. Check out the Delecluse snare stuff some time, not even mentioning the mallet exerpts and then there are the timpani exerpts. It takes a lot of skill and practice to even get the job to play the triangle for 1 note every 150 measures. And on top of that to even get a chance at the audition your resume had at the very least include a degree from one of the top schools. Julliard, Manhattan, Curtis, Eastman, New England,Indiana, North Western...........

I love the total cluelessness of some people.
I confess, i am of meager statue compared to some here, but not all classical music is played at the Royal Albert Hall. But hey , that was not the point of my post.
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  #177  
Old 09-26-2010, 09:29 PM
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I like Musicals, and I don't care who knows it! I am what I am - as the man said. ;)
No, I understand- I just snapped there for a moment. I had a bad experience with some particularly ungifted performers on that and some similarly "jazzy" numbers. You certainly have to embrace these things if you're doing them- you have to find the good in them or you just go nuts. And of course if you enjoy them anyway, who is anyone to judge?
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Old 09-26-2010, 10:29 PM
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  #178  
Old 09-26-2010, 11:14 PM
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But your hair looks good! :^ )
I agree, Jay's hair does look cool in that pic.
Lets see a pic of your hair today Jay!
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  #179  
Old 09-26-2010, 11:28 PM
Boomka Boomka is offline
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No, I understand- I just snapped there for a moment. I had a bad experience with some particularly ungifted performers on that and some similarly "jazzy" numbers.
We've all been there. That should be listed as one of the "cons" in the "Cons of Pros" thread. Not all paying gigs are good gigs.
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  #180  
Old 09-26-2010, 11:35 PM
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I agree, Jay's hair does look cool in that pic.
Lets see a pic of your hair today Jay!
I think that would be a great idea for a thread. "Let's See A Pic Of Your Hair Today!"

I would happily comply but I'm having trouble with Photobucket lately. The upload button doesn't work anymore, I don't know why.
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  #181  
Old 09-26-2010, 11:36 PM
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I think that would be a great idea for a thread. "Let's See A Pic Of Your Hair Today!"

I would happily comply but I'm having trouble with Photobucket lately. The upload button doesn't work anymore, I don't know why.
Didn't we already have one of these threads?
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  #182  
Old 09-26-2010, 11:41 PM
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Didn't we already have one of these threads?
Maybe you'e thinking about the "Can I Be A Good Jazz Drummer Without Shaving My Head" thread.
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  #183  
Old 09-26-2010, 11:42 PM
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Maybe you'e thinking about the "Can I Be A Good Jazz Drummer Without Shaving My Head" thread.
That's the one! Didn't DogBreath start that one!!!
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  #184  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:00 AM
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More qotes from the great one....

BR - I think it's a fallacy that the harder you practice the better you get. You only get better by playing. You could sit around in a room, in a base-ment with a set of drums all day long and practice rudiments, and try to develop speed, but until you start playing with a band, you can't learn technique, you can't learn taste, you can't learn how to play with a band and for a band until you actually play. So, practice, particularly after you've attained a job, any kind of job, like playing with a four piece band, that's ...... an opportunity to develop. And practice, besides that, is boring. You know, I know teachers who tell their students to practice four hours a day, eight hours a day. If you can't accomplish what you want in an hour, you 're not gonna get it in four days.

Last edited by Stickit; 09-27-2010 at 01:12 AM.
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  #185  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:08 AM
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What point are you trying to make by putting up all these Buddy Rich quotes? Sorry, but I'm not getting it.
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  #186  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:09 AM
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More qotes from the great one....

BR - I think it's a fallacy that the harder you practice the better you get. You only get better by playing. You could sit around in a room, in a base-ment with a set of drums all day long and practice rudiments, and try to develop speed, but until you start playing with a band, you can't learn technique, you can't learn taste, you can't learn how to play with a band and for a band until you actually play. So, practice, particularly after you've attained a job, any kind of job, like playing with a four piece band, that's ...... an opportunity to develop. And practice, besides that, is boring. You know, I know teachers who tell their students to practice four hours a day, eight hours a day. If you can't accomplish what you want in an hour, you 're not gonna get it in four days.
Not that I want to open yet another can of BR worms, but how much of that am I expected to swallow just because he was a great player?
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  #187  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:12 AM
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A symphony musician once said that all musicians copy, that there are no original musicians because everything that will ever be played has been played before. What do you think about that statement?

BR - I don't think so. Idon's think anybody ever played like Charlie Parker. I don's think anybody ever played like Lester Young. I don't thint anybody ever played like Coleman Hawkins or Dizzy Gillespie or Miles Davis ... or Art Tatum .. - or Charlie Christian. I could go back and name a thousand musicians who were the total creators, and what we're hearing today is an upshoot of what they originated. So, the symphony musician who said that has no idea of what he's talking about. If he's a true symphony artist, he knows better than that because he knows that the only truly creative musician is the jazz musician. Because after he gets done with all the classical stuff he learns In school, he then has to develop into a jazz player and that takes originality, and creativity. So. any symphony musician who would make a statement like that, is in sad neglect of a musical education.
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  #188  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:16 AM
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What point are you trying to make by putting up all these Buddy Rich quotes? Sorry, but I'm not getting it.
It should be obvious....why would anyone listen to a bunch of nobody's when they have Buddy to learn from. Just about everything he says is totally opposite than what I'm hearing here.
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  #189  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:24 AM
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A symphony musician once said that all musicians copy, that there are no original musicians because everything that will ever be played has been played before. What do you think about that statement?

BR - I don't think so. Idon's think anybody ever played like Charlie Parker. I don's think anybody ever played like Lester Young. I don't thint anybody ever played like Coleman Hawkins or Dizzy Gillespie or Miles Davis ... or Art Tatum .. - or Charlie Christian. I could go back and name a thousand musicians who were the total creators, and what we're hearing today is an upshoot of what they originated. So, the symphony musician who said that has no idea of what he's talking about. If he's a true symphony artist, he knows better than that because he knows that the only truly creative musician is the jazz musician. Because after he gets done with all the classical stuff he learns In school, he then has to develop into a jazz player and that takes originality, and creativity. So. any symphony musician who would make a statement like that, is in sad neglect of a musical education.
Enough already.

It's becoming a pain in the arse. Tell me what YOU think.....what are YOUR experiences, what have YOU learned?

You started this, now back it up with something of your own. Buddy said a lot of things that don't wash with me, yet you're clinging to him like dog shit to a shoe.

My three year old could cut and paste random quotes. What's the chance of getting back on topic?
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  #190  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:34 AM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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It should be obvious....why would anyone listen to a bunch of nobody's when they have Buddy to learn from.
Oh, I see, I get it.

Tell us, then. What have you learned from Buddy Rich?
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  #191  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:47 AM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

Buddy said a lot of insane things to the press that made completely no sense. The fact that you believe it all word to word is some of the most sad and most funny stuff if read here in a LONG time....thanks for the laugh!

Buddy was well known for putting people on and sending the naive into a tail spin with his rants and left field comments about music, musicians, fellow drummers and how the gullible beginners/ devoted worshipers would soak it all up without question. Part of derailing any of the up and coming prospective drumming competition in most cases at the time I suspect......seems to be still having the intended effect today :}

Of course this is coming from a "unknown" who met Buddy, heard him play several times, and even later worked with one of his sidemen who later went on to become one of my old bandleaders in a group I performed with.

Even beyond the grave I think the joke is on you Stickit courtesy the sly Mr. Rich. Good luck to you! :}

Enough already with the Buddy "put on" quotes.......
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  #192  
Old 09-27-2010, 01:55 AM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

Well, I agree with his anology on being creative. Contrary to popular belief, I have no problem with anyone learning to read music or doing stick ticks or competing in the WDF. What do you care what I think anyway? I'm just a weekend warrior trying to play the best that I can. It's all good, we are all drummers with different opinions on what is important to each of us.
For me, learning to read music would be a waste of time, the same as learning a language I would never use.
Do what you feel will be a benifit for you, but don't preach to all that this is the best and only way, it's not. Go ask any drummer who has made a living or become famous without any formal training.
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:06 AM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

I don't think that I ever saw BR answer a question with a sincere answer.
His answer was always somewhat sarcastic.
There was some truth in there somewhere, but you never knew where the truth began and the sarcasm ended.
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  #194  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:07 AM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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It should be obvious....why would anyone listen to a bunch of nobody's when they have Buddy to learn from. Just about everything he says is totally opposite than what you hear from most successful musicians.
Fixed.

Buddy = Numero Uno Freak.
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  #195  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:10 AM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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Well, I agree with his anology on being creative. Contrary to popular belief, I have no problem with anyone learning to read music or doing stick ticks or competing in the WDF. What do you care what I think anyway? I'm just a weekend warrior trying to play the best that I can. It's all good, we are all drummers with different opinions on what is important to each of us.
For me, learning to read music would be a waste of time, the same as learning a language I would never use.
Do what you feel will be a benifit for you, but don't preach to all that this is the best and only way, it's not. Go ask any drummer who has made a living or become famous without any formal training.
+ 2 to all the centenarians who smoke.
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  #196  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:17 AM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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I'm just a weekend warrior trying to play the best that I can. It's all good, we are all drummers with different opinions on what is important to each of us.
For me, learning to read music would be a waste of time, the same as learning a language I would never use.
It's just occured to me that the topic of this thread does in no way concern you, does it? There are metal drumming threads up here all the time. I don't go to them, much less post on them, because the topics of those threads do not concern me. I know nothing about metal drumming.

And you know nothing about reading music, and that's fine! I'm fine with not knowing how to play metal drums. But if reading music does not concern you then why do you keep even reading this thread? You've made it clear that learning music for you would be a waste of your time, and yet you seem to spend an inordinate amount of time putting posts up on a thread whose topic does not concern you.

Makes no sense.
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:26 AM
JPW JPW is offline
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

Godwin's law on this board:

"As an online discussion grows longer on DrummerWorld, the probability of an argument involving Buddy Rich and what he may or may not have said approaches 1. Whether you agree with the stament(s) or not the discussion is over."
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  #198  
Old 09-27-2010, 02:31 AM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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Godwin's law on this board:

"As an online discussion grows longer on DrummerWorld, the probability of an argument involving Buddy Rich and what he may or may not have said approaches 1. Either if you agree with the stament(s) or not the discussion is over."
Hah!

But Godwin's Law isn't really a good analogy. Buddy Rich is the true virtuoso of the drum kit and so it's only natural that his figure is always looming over threads such as these.

Although I'm sure that you'd have little problem finding musicians who worked for Buddy Rich who would gladly compare him to Adolph Hitler.
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:33 AM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

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Hah!

But Godwin's Law isn't really a good analogy. Buddy Rich is the true virtuoso of the drum kit and so it's only natural that his figure is always looming over threads such as these.

Although I'm sure that you'd have little problem finding musicians who worked for Buddy Rich who would gladly compare him to Adolph Hitler.
Heh, yes, well I think my point was about the propability and discussions ending rather than him being anything. Doesn't matter what anybody thinks. It's a dead horse. =P

Isn't it interesting though, when a person needs to fortify his own beliefs he has to dig that one quote from one great drummer and hold to it like it was the bible. Even if there was contradicting material from equally good drummers available. It's that exact quote from that exact drummer that's the most important one. He clearly is right because he is the One. He has seen the light! Oh sorry... wrong meeting...
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Old 09-27-2010, 02:36 AM
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Default Re: What Is The Deal With These Silly Reading/Technique Threads?

I think that Hitler probably studied BR to see how being a dictator was done! ;)
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