a different question about spring tension.....

Of COURSE a real fancy-pants physicist is going to come along! ;) Thanks for the insights...interesting!

This board is just too awesome...what a great assembly of peeps.
 
Wow! Thanks, Drummist222! Tremendous!

I think everything you said rings true to me. I'll have to sit with it for awhile to figure out exactly how to use this info in interpreting my experience of spring tension. Today, I spent a few minutes playing around with various spring tensions, including no spring at all. It was very interesting. I mostly found that I could indeed play very fast with little or no spring tension. On the other hand, I also became painfully aware of the spring's importance in pulling the beater back for the initial "wind up" that happens before even striking the head. This initial wind up was significantly slowed down with lower spring tension. Perhaps this is part of what I have perceived as sluggishness in the past when I've tried a very loose spring. Also, as you (and Zambizzi) pointed out, the spring is exerting a certain amount of force on the pedal at all times. This, in turn, is holding the pedal against the foot. If the spring tension is decreased, it seems that the pedal will not be held as firmly against the foot. Does that mean the pedal will be somewhat less responsive to the subtle movements of the foot? Not sure. I definitely plan to play around with all of these ideas as soon as I get a chunk of free time with a bass drum pedal.

Thanks again for the excellent post! Really terrific! Exactly what we needed.
 
the spring is exerting a certain amount of force on the pedal at all times. This, in turn, is holding the pedal against the foot. If the spring tension is decreased, it seems that the pedal will not be held as firmly against the foot. Does that mean the pedal will be somewhat less responsive to the subtle movements of the foot?

I was thinking about this tonight during practice. If you don't use proper technique then you could easily misjudge how much tension you need both in head tuning...and your spring. For example, if you don't get out of the way of the rebound and just bury the beater...you have very little need for a spring and can tune as low as you want. Otherwise, you'd just be wasting all that energy of fighting the spring on the way down...and absorbing the shock of the rebound upon impact. Seems very inefficient and perhaps harmful...just as it would be with your hands.

Another worthless thought:

At some point as you loosen the spring, the rebound of the head is going to take over responsibility of providing the force that returns the beater to its original position.

My guess is; the amount of energy returned by the bass drum head after being struck is less than the spring would provide if cranked up enough to be useful. I think this would confirm that the spring is what most people rely on for much of their rebound.

Except for Buddy, of course...
 
WOW....We really are GEEKS!

I get that a lot.

Drummist, When you said this, "This seems to imply that the faster the double stroke, the more important the rebound is and the less important the spring is." Does this mean I'm correct. Thanks for you're input. T

Essentially, yes. Keep in mind that I'm making some assumptions here that may not be borne out by the facts, but my reasoning indicates that in a fast double stroke the spring doesn't have time to significantly accelerate the pedal. You can try to test this by attempting double strokes with no drum head, just the pedal sitting by itself. I just tried this and it doesn't seem like the pedal gets back fast enough for those really really fast doubles I hear the pros doing, but my tension is pretty loose and I'm certainly no technique guru. It certainly comes back fast enough to allow some decent doubles, though. Let us know if you figure anything out.

Also, let's keep in mind that what happens after the second stroke is finished will be only influenced by the spring. Matt espouses a technique where you return to a relaxed position after a series of doubles, and if the spring were too loose this probably wouldn't work; you'd get extra strokes or something.

To really answer the question, we would need a quantitative analysis of the forces involved and an analysis of the optimal conditions for different techniques. The first would require someone to take apart their pedal and measure the spring constant and then find a way to measure the velocity of the beater just before it hits the head. The second would require someone who knows the techniques much better than I to do a lot of thinking. Sounds like Matt's making some progress, but I'm sure a collective effort would be more efficient. Obviously, the techniques and the spring tension/ head tension will influence each other, probably in a fairly complex manner, and there's never a right answer for everyone, but I'm certainly enjoying the discussion.
 
As we're thinking about this, I'm going to elevate the "geek" factor even further by throwing a small monkey wrench into the equation. When people talk about a "fast double stroke," they may not realize it, but they are actually talking about the time (or lack of time) between the 2 hits. This is a different issue than the actual speed (velocity) of each individual hit. For example, in a "fast double stroke" that is played quietly, the 2 individual strokes will be somewhat slower than the individual strokes in a "fast double stroke" that is played loudly...even if the metronome tempo is the same. So, now I'm thinking that even the volume we play at is a factor here! Abe was on the right track when he asked "Is it possible to do it with low dynamics?" So, now we've got head tension, beater weight, volume, technique specifics, spring tension, and probably numerous other factors influencing the feel and responsiveness of a pedal. Yikes! It seems Drummist222 was right when he said "Sometimes people expect physics to spit out simple answers to complex problems, and it never does." In this case, I'm starting to think that the true answer may be much more complex than the question!
 
I get that a lot.



Essentially, yes. Keep in mind that I'm making some assumptions here that may not be borne out by the facts, but my reasoning indicates that in a fast double stroke the spring doesn't have time to significantly accelerate the pedal. You can try to test this by attempting double strokes with no drum head, just the pedal sitting by itself. I just tried this and it doesn't seem like the pedal gets back fast enough for those really really fast doubles I hear the pros doing, but my tension is pretty loose and I'm certainly no technique guru. It certainly comes back fast enough to allow some decent doubles, though. Let us know if you figure anything out.

Also, let's keep in mind that what happens after the second stroke is finished will be only influenced by the spring. Matt espouses a technique where you return to a relaxed position after a series of doubles, and if the spring were too loose this probably wouldn't work; you'd get extra strokes or something.

To really answer the question, we would need a quantitative analysis of the forces involved and an analysis of the optimal conditions for different techniques. The first would require someone to take apart their pedal and measure the spring constant and then find a way to measure the velocity of the beater just before it hits the head. The second would require someone who knows the techniques much better than I to do a lot of thinking. Sounds like Matt's making some progress, but I'm sure a collective effort would be more efficient. Obviously, the techniques and the spring tension/ head tension will influence each other, probably in a fairly complex manner, and there's never a right answer for everyone, but I'm certainly enjoying the discussion.

What about triple strokes? If it's true that the spring is the only factor after the second note of a double, then where do you get a third note to sound even with the other two notes of a triple stroke. My contention is tight or loose doesn't matter if you play doubles with "proper technique" (what ever that means ). I can play any speed variation nessesary and at any volume. My double clarity is not lost or different as speed and/ or volume change. I control the speed, the spring doesn't. I have my springs as loose as they will go without falling of the spring cam. (Yamaha Flying Dragon). I don't have any flutter (extra notes) problem. Flutter is not a spring issue, it has more to do with foot control and proxcimety(sp?) to the drumhead after the stroke is completed. If you use some type of stroke/slide motion to play doubles, then you are mirroring the motion of you're hands when they play doubles. The slide part is the same as the fingers continuing to pull in for the second bounce. this is the part of the stroke for feet or hands that allow and control the speed and timing of the second bounce. My hands do not have springs. The rebound alone brings the stick back up. I'm doing the same thing with my feet. My spring to me only serves two purposes; 1- supply just enough back pressure to keep the pedal plate in line with my foot. 2- To bring the beater off the head if I do leave it close to the head. I think I'm right in assuming that the original reason for the pedal spring is to do just what I describe in #2. Otherwise every time you don't play a bounce stroke the beater will just die on the head. My spring tension is just tight enough to pull the beater back so it falls into playing position. To me tighter springs=faster potential is a myth. Just like you're hands, you're feet and the control you have over the BOUNCE is what dictates every thing . Not spring tension. Remember the tighter the spring, the harder it is to push down, creating resistance. Would you do this with you're hands to create more potential speed? I think not.........T
 
Hooke's Law:

F = -kx

Where F = Force

k = the spring constant

x = displacement of the spring along a vector

The amount of displacement you deliver to the spring, is proportional to the amount of energy is stores in "Newtons". In a perfect spring load, like old bass drum pedals had, there was a double-edged problem for the pedal user. Either you keep the pedal loaded less, so that you exert less force to go "fast", or you load up the spring so that it rebounds better, but requires more energy to push down. Most drummer tuned higher in "the days of yore" than they do today and also had no holes in them, so there would be more force coming back to the beater, in the form of rebound. Most drummers could cope with the inherent issue of not enough or too much tension, by tuning their drum accordingly.

The interesting factor in modern pedal design, is that the spring might violate an exact order of Hooke's Law--and with specially designed cams and "progressive-force" spring designs--you can achieve far more force and receive a quicker response on a lower-tuned drum than was possible before. Conversely, one can tune up a spring on a modern high-end pedal and because of the same cams and spring designs, the pedal tension is "reduced", while returning faster than the lower tension. The degree of adjustment possible in most modern pedals is staggering. Even my Iron Cobra--circa 2001--is chock full of stuff I've never really messed with. It was pretty much right on from the get-go.

But it's interesting to note Hooke's Law, when we deal with not only pedal tension, but the reaction of the stick on the head and the tension on the drum heads themselves.
 
Bottom line though is your muscles compensate for whatever spring tension you are playing on. If it's tight, we exert more force, if it's looser, a little less. I don't think there would be too much disagreement to me saying that it's possible to have incredibly fast doubles within all the normal ranges of spring tension, so if I were you Beats, I'd say tension it so it works for you, which really depends on your technique, your pedal, your spring tension, your bass drum size, your bass drum tension, your reso head (ported or not), your normal bass drum volume, your beater material, how much if any muffling, etc. but most of all your preference.
 
wow this thread has become a whole new type of monster lol. Ive been fooling around with it and ive gotten use to the new looser tension and its working better.

the bottom line is the looser you can have your spring and still get the desired response and do what you need to the better because its requires less force.
 
wow this thread has become a whole new type of monster lol. Ive been fooling around with it and ive gotten use to the new looser tension and its working better.

the bottom line is the looser you can have your spring and still get the desired response and do what you need to the better because its requires less force.

So we've succeeded in making you sorry for asking? I believe our work here is done gentlemen. ;)
 
So we've succeeded in making you sorry for asking? I believe our work here is done gentlemen. ;)

lol not really, there was some good stuff said here, something else helpful would be for people to say exactly how loose their spring is and then how quickly they can do their doubles.

i also started wondering about this speicifcally when i saw a video on youtube of tony royster jr. it was through the drum channel and they showed his foot work during a solo and i noticed he had his foot farther down the pedal than i usually do. so naturally i attempted to play like him cause hes so damn awesome and all, and i realized to play farther back you need less tension on the spring... so this is why i asked about it because if he plays like that and can do such quick doubles then i can too !! :) lol

here is the video check it out and tell me what you think!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VRhCenWgDo
 
Actually, I think TRJ is a robot...or superhuman...or something. I like your sense of hope though...ha!

Personally, my tension is about "medium". I once had it cranked as high as I could get it....then I lowered it to the point of barely influencing the stroke (if at all). I recently had to turn the tension back up a bit as I found I was burying the beater just out of the sheer weight of my leg - it was just too loose to remain nimble.

I think my doubles are pretty fast for a relative n00b. I can hit a quick 32nd. note double on a mid-tempo groove. I'm working on control and dynamics more than speed these days though.
 
Such a great thread. Now its got me wondering about the beaters throw. I'm going to mess with the springs, but what effect would the beaters throw and/or length adjustment have?
 
Such a great thread. Now its got me wondering about the beaters throw. I'm going to mess with the springs, but what effect would the beaters throw and/or length adjustment have?

If you check out this clip ( Pause at 0:01) you'll see my set-up for the pedal (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mCUqdPhWz44&feature=channel_page). I like the idea of setting up the pedal beater position to be as close to what a stick feels like in your hand when your fulcrum is in the balance point (sweetspot). I have the beater 1 1/4 inches down the shaft and I put the counterwieght all the way at the end of the beater shaft. This way I am getting the feel of the pedal to feel more like a stick in my hand . At rest my beater sits 90 degrees from the drumhead. Like a full stroke position for the hands, (note; Danmer hard felt beater, DW counterwieght) My spring tension is stated in a previous post on this thread................T
 
Such a great thread. Now its got me wondering about the beaters throw. I'm going to mess with the springs, but what effect would the beaters throw and/or length adjustment have?

It has a big effect on the feel of the stroke, IMO. Like SEVNT7 said - it's like the fulcrum on your hands. I like my beater about 1/3 of the way away from the head, between the head and my foot (sorry, best description I could think of). I have it hitting dead-center on a 22" head. I really like the Iron Cobra felt beater w/ a single counter-weight all the way at the top of the shaft of the beater.
 
If you check out this clip ( Pause at 0:01) you'll see my set-up for the pedal (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mCUqdPhWz44&feature=channel_page). I like the idea of setting up the pedal beater position to be as close to what a stick feels like in your hand when your fulcrum is in the balance point (sweetspot). I have the beater 1 1/4 inches down the shaft and I put the counterwieght all the way at the end of the beater shaft. This way I am getting the feel of the pedal to feel more like a stick in my hand . At rest my beater sits 90 degrees from the drumhead. Like a full stroke position for the hands, (note; Danmer hard felt beater, DW counterwieght) My spring tension is stated in a previous post on this thread................T

Hey SEVENT7, I just realized that you where on the videos. Sorry if I sounded critical, when I said that the guy in video can't start the long passage. As you maybe noticed, I still admire your ability to use rebound. What I mean with my post, is that I'm very curious to see video with fast and slow doubles in different dynamics and without spring.
When I compare hands with feet, I've notice that, for example, on loose floor tom we ''pick up'' the stick; rebound is not enough for even doubles. It's very logical because of loose head that doesn't return a lot of first stroke's energy. In theory we could make after first hit's little rebound higher acceleration for second stroke thus avoiding need for even stick height for both hits. Same with bass drum, if it's loose and with no spring (or extremely low) how it would be possible to even out the second stroke? No matter how able is the drummer to use rebound, beater won't have enough energy to return to starting position. Maybe it's possible to raise acceleration for beater and get same volume lower hit? And if that's possible does it work in different volumes, speeds.
I'm not near to your skill level so, I'd appreciate your opinion on how it would be possible to play even doubles without (or with extremely low tension) spring on loose bass drum?

Anyway I watched other videos. You have mad skills and very good coordination :)
 
Back
Top