The Bass Drum ELIMINATION thread....

Bo Eder · #1 08-09-2012, 11:08 AM

I got this idea in my head after someone asked about converting a 16" floor tom into a bass drum, and I thought I'd try this myself to prove it actually works, but I haven't done any work on it yet, but imagine this:

The Sonor Safari kit has proven that 16x16 bass drums actually do work - well, Jack DeJohnette proved that a 16" bass drum could work, period. So, I don't think anyone has an issue with the size of the bass drum. And everyone seems to have a 16" floor tom in their arsenal somewhere. My idea is to apply some cocktail drumset engineering to a standard 16" floor tom and eliminate the bass drum altogether. Think of the application: you don't have to cart around a bass drum, the biggest drum will be a 16" floor tom - and I think it's cheaper doing this than it is to purchase the parts to lay your 16" floor tom on its side!

Step 1: I have a few Iron Cobra Jrs. lying around, so one will get converted into an upward-swinging pedal. It already has its own plate, so I won't have to install that cocktail drum bracket between a pair of legs for the pedal to connect to.

Step 2: The bottom head of my 16 floor tom will get a Remo Powerstroke 3 head, or an Evans EQ4 (maybe I'll put 'em top and bottom, not sure yet). And it'll get tuned like a bass drum, Sonor Safari style.

Step 3: Leave the floor tom at its regular height, put the pedal underneath, and put my snare right next to the floor tom. Add the hi-hat , and add a cymbal, instant two-piece kit, which is actually a three-piece, because you can play the top of the floor tom as a tom too!

Step 4: I could get adventurous and add the 12" tom on another stand so it basically becomes a four-piece again...

In theory, it's a Safari kit without a sideways bass drum. After this weekend, I will try this with my Granstars and post a video. This isn't a new idea of mine, someone else has already done it back in the 70s, but sometimes I think we're so stuck on what a drumset should look like, an easier conversion gets overlooked, and it's certainly a conversion that's easier to un-install should you not like what you've done!

Stay tuned!

keep it simple · #2 08-09-2012, 11:19 AM

It's a good idea, & I've seen it done, although with a slightly different layout. It works fine if you want either a very open bass drum sound, or a very short floor tom sound. As the floor/bass drum sounds very similar when hit from the bottom or the top, the only way to bring differential to the party is to ensure you bury the beater on the bass pedal so as to effect a shorter bass drum note.

Dre25 · #3 08-09-2012, 12:23 PM

Bo, you should learn to beat box.

robyn64 · #4 08-09-2012, 02:20 PM

this, i want to see. really curious how it will turn out. trying to picture this in my mind but not quite getting the picture. will it be standing upright and if so how will it stay in place? i'm confused. and also by using a smaller size for bass, wouldn,t it be a higher pitch in sound?

steverok · #5 08-09-2012, 02:41 PM

Can't remember where, but I saw Glen Kotch from Wilco do this, with the upward swinging pedal, hitting the bottom of the floor tom. It sounded really cool for what they were playing.

Mad About Drums · #6 08-09-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keep it simple

...is to ensure you bury the beater on the bass pedal...

Quote:

Originally Posted by robyn64

...and if so how will it stay in place? i'm confused...

... WHOOOOSHHH, ... there's a flying 16x16 floor tom :) *run for cover*

Let us know how you get on Bo, I'm intrigued and curious, especially on the sound of the floor tom vs bass drum.

Masheanhed · #7 08-09-2012, 05:34 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH_WxfJfYNs

Bo, check this out. I think this what you are talking about.

KarlCrafton · #8 08-09-2012, 06:21 PM

All this talk got me thinking one of those DW sidekick pedals would be really cool on my left side ft.
I've wanted one of those for a long time too.....

But, I came to my senses. Too much hassle to hook up at a show, and it's another $230 I don't need to spend.

:-)

section8usmc · #9 08-09-2012, 07:01 PM

I think the only issue you may have to play with is head selection. Remember, a bass drum in a kit is typically 1-2 mm thicker than the rest of the kit. This is obviously to help with durability, but also helps with the thump. I know my 18"x14" sounds more like a 20".

Since you can't do anything about shell thickness, I think you're on the right track. As I'm going over this in my head, it will also be a matter of tuning as well as head selection. Let's be honest here, a drum head really does a lot of the work. Most heads will resonate without the drum. That should play to your favor. Your resonant head will have to be tuned a bit higher I think, so you still get the distinct tom sound, and a heavy batter head tuned low should give you your more bassy sound for the kick half.

I know if you look at the Yamaha Hip Gig sets, (which are so friggin cool IMHO) they have the upright bass and the snare in one drum. The set up is a bit different, and it is a longer drum, but all in all, I like where you're going with this. I was just telling Larryace the importance of people pushing the boundaries, because as a result, be technologies, and new ideas come about that may lead us into a whole new direction. I also brought this up to Larry. Not only was Ron Bushy from Iron Butterfly a true visionary when it came to equipment, but he'd just to ahead and do it, and he came up with more new stuff than any one person in the history of drumming. In fact, more than most drum companies. He'd play with no resonant head just for a different sound for example. I grinned from ear to ear when I read what you were thinking. Push those boundaries! You have plenty of support here! http://www.drumheadmag.com/web/feature.php?id=14 and... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIVe-...e_gdata_player ...although in the video, he's just going through the motions, you can see what his kit looks like. I can't wait to see your video!

Bo Eder · #10 08-09-2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlCrafton

All this talk got me thinking one of those DW sidekick pedals would be really cool on my left side ft.
I've wanted one of those for a long time too.....

But, I came to my senses. Too much hassle to hook up at a show, and it's another $230 I don't need to spend.

:-)

Yeah, all I was talking about was converting an existing pedal and installing PowerStroke3's. Giving more money to Drum Workshop for something over-engineered is not what I meant ;)

Remember, once I install the PowerStroke3, I'll basically have a Sonor Safari 16" bass drum, so head selection is already set. With the weight of this Granstar floor tom, I doubt it will go anywhere, but we'll see. I may have to get one of those brackets that spans between two legs to mount the pedal to, but even that should be a small investment if needed.

Bo Eder · #11 08-09-2012, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masheanhed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH_WxfJfYNs

Bo, check this out. I think this what you are talking about.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That guy sucks though ;)

Bo Eder · #12 08-09-2012, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by section8usmc

I think the only issue you may have to play with is head selection. Remember, a bass drum in a kit is typically 1-2 mm thicker than the rest of the kit. This is obviously to help with durability, but also helps with the thump. I know my 18"x14" sounds more like a 20".

Since you can't do anything about shell thickness, I think you're on the right track. As I'm going over this in my head, it will also be a matter of tuning as well as head selection. Let's be honest here, a drum head really does a lot of the work. Most heads will resonate without the drum. That should play to your favor. Your resonant head will have to be tuned a bit higher I think, so you still get the distinct tom sound, and a heavy batter head tuned low should give you your more bassy sound for the kick half.

I know if you look at the Yamaha Hip Gig sets, (which are so friggin cool IMHO) they have the upright bass and the snare in one drum. The set up is a bit different, and it is a longer drum, but all in all, I like where you're going with this. I was just telling Larryace the importance of people pushing the boundaries, because as a result, be technologies, and new ideas come about that may lead us into a whole new direction. I also brought this up to Larry. Not only was Ron Bushy from Iron Butterfly a true visionary when it came to equipment, but he'd just to ahead and do it, and he came up with more new stuff than any one person in the history of drumming. In fact, more than most drum companies. He'd play with no resonant head just for a different sound for example. I grinned from ear to ear when I read what you were thinking. Push those boundaries! You have plenty of support here! http://www.drumheadmag.com/web/feature.php?id=14 and... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIVe-...e_gdata_player ...although in the video, he's just going through the motions, you can see what his kit looks like. I can't wait to see your video!

Thanks for tips! As for the Iron Butterfly guy, he's doing what Hal Blaine did before he developed his Octa-Plus kit. He used a couple of timbales for his toms and producers were calling him for that special sound he had. And then Hal started thinking how cool would it be if he had just a whole mess of those things? And that started, well, you know.

section8usmc · #13 08-09-2012, 08:49 PM

Bo, we really have it pretty easy nowadays, don't we? Its crazy to think that these guys were doing this stuff in the '60s! It really gets me that as long as so many instruments have been around, that drums really were late bloomers if you will. The piano was long since perfected, as was the violin, and so on. The came Les Paul, and then finally the drums. I mean, in the grand scope of things, we're only talking 50-60 years ago.

Now look. The pedal should be no big deal to rig. I go to buy drum sticks, and I literally have hundreds to choose from. We have wood blocks that are no longer wood and will last next to forever. We have stands and mounts that put everything exactly where we need it. Intermediate drum kits have the quality and, tolerances that top of the line stuff back then couldn't even come close to.Not to leave out the drum heads that have come along. I laughed when I mentioned that most will resonate on their own now. That's crazy. I can't imagine having to tune an actual skin! I sure am thankful for all those guys back then. People willing to wonder why something is the way it is when it could be so much better, and then making it so.

I think your idea, even if it has sort of been done, is awesome. If it works like I'm hearing it in my head, that will be extremely cool! It is a niche kind of thing at first look, but I imagine lots of possibilities for that set up. Not just a small upright bass/tom combination for size, but as a second bass without taking up any more room but for the pedal as one example. Then you can take it one farther, and incorporate that onto any size floor tom, or multiple. I really hope it works, and works well, because its a frigging cool idea.

Bo Eder · #14 08-09-2012, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by section8usmc

Bo, we really have it pretty easy nowadays, don't we? Its crazy to think that these guys were doing this stuff in the '60s! It really gets me that as long as so many instruments have been around, that drums really were late bloomers if you will. The piano was long since perfected, as was the violin, and so on. The came Les Paul, and then finally the drums. I mean, in the grand scope of things, we're only talking 50-60 years ago.

Now look. The pedal should be no big deal to rig. I go to buy drum sticks, and I literally have hundreds to choose from. We have wood blocks that are no longer wood and will last next to forever. We have stands and mounts that put everything exactly where we need it. Intermediate drum kits have the quality and, tolerances that top of the line stuff back then couldn't even come close to.Not to leave out the drum heads that have come along. I laughed when I mentioned that most will resonate on their own now. That's crazy. I can't imagine having to tune an actual skin! I sure am thankful for all those guys back then. People willing to wonder why something is the way it is when it could be so much better, and then making it so.

I think your idea, even if it has sort of been done, is awesome. If it works like I'm hearing it in my head, that will be extremely cool! It is a niche kind of thing at first look, but I imagine lots of possibilities for that set up. Not just a small upright bass/tom combination for size, but as a second bass without taking up any more room but for the pedal as one example. Then you can take it one farther, and incorporate that onto any size floor tom, or multiple. I really hope it works, and works well, because its a frigging cool idea.

Thanks! Yes, the kiddies have it totally easy these days! That's why I probably come off a little harsh when someone tells me they're having a hard time with such-and-such, and they can't play this or that. The gear no longer stands in your way - so what's your excuse? I'm a bit more understanding in reality, however, the phrase "walking 10 miles to school in the snow with no shoes" rings more true as I get older ;)

I got my pedal converted already, I just need to get the heads for the floor tom and I should be done. I won't be able to realize this until next week as I'm gigging this weekend with this kit so the experiment will continue on Monday. Thanks for the encouragement!

robyn64 · #15 08-10-2012, 12:30 AM

[quote=Mad About Drums;1032716]... WHOOOOSHHH, ... there's a flying 16x16 floor tom :) *run for cover*

ok ok real funny har har....not exactly what i was thinking but it was funny, made me laugh :)

robyn64 · #16 08-10-2012, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bo Eder

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. That guy sucks though ;)

ok getting the picture a lit'l clearer now. guess i've never seen a cocktail drum kit b4, (well that i remember anyway). i like em, kinda neat and sounds pretty good too, probly even sound pretty awesome with a better drummer, huh bo?

so good luck with your project bo, can't wait to see/hear the finished product.

Silverfox · #17 08-10-2012, 12:58 AM

This is a great topic, and now you're giving me ideas. Imagine a semicircular setup of floor toms with a pedal underneath each one. It not only eliminates the need for bass drum(s), but can give you the benefit of having multiple bass drum sounds as well as toms. I'm thinking of something like 16", 18", 20" with similar depths and a pedal below each one.

Of course I'd experiment with larger and smaller toms, and different minimalist snare, hi hat, and cymbal mounting options as well.

robyn64 · #18 08-10-2012, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by section8usmc

Not only was Ron Bushy from Iron Butterfly a true visionary when it came to equipment, but he'd just to ahead and do it, and he came up with more new stuff than any one person in the history of drumming. In fact, more than most drum companies. He'd play with no resonant head just for a different sound for example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIVe-...e_gdata_player

I remember my uncle alan doing this when i was a kid, he would also lay a pillow in the bass. i remember laying my head on that pillow as he played, loved that "feeling" of the kick as it thumped. and am still that way today, can't hear too well but still love to "feel" the music ;)

section8usmc · #19 08-10-2012, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robyn64

I remember my uncle alan doing this when i was a kid, he would also lay a pillow in the bass. i remember laying my head on that pillow as he played, loved that "feeling" of the kick as it thumped. and am still that way today, can't hear too well but still love to "feel" the music ;)

Ha! That's an awesome memory!

Silverfox, that's exactly what I was getting at! The possibilities are great! So many different configurations!

robyn64 · #20 08-10-2012, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by section8usmc

Ha! That's an awesome memory!

Silverfox, that's exactly what I was getting at! The possibilities are great! So many different configurations!

yep...got lots of them great memories...would give anything to hear and watch my uncle play again tho (but thats a story for a different thread)

and totally agree with the possibilities, always say...if there is a will, there is a way.

larryace · #21 08-10-2012, 03:27 AM

You'd have to pry my 22" bass drum from my cold dead hands. This thread is blasphemous!

:)

A 16" bass drum...I'm not OK with one. Same with an 18. A 20 is the smallest I'd go on a kick drum.

It is a different idea and I could see other people doing it for certain situations, but not me thank you very much lol.

section8usmc · #22 08-10-2012, 03:35 AM

Lol! Oh Larry, not even and 18"? Really? Mine thumps pretty darn good. It is 1 ply (2 mm) thicker. I do love my 22" and I can't wait to get my 24", but I think some of the 18" and 20" out there today are really pretty good. Blasphemous. Haha!

audiotech · #23 08-10-2012, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larryace

You'd have to pry my 22" bass drum from my cold dead hands. This thread is blasphemous!

:)

A 16" bass drum...I'm not OK with one. Same with an 18. A 20 is the smallest I'd go on a kick drum.

It is a different idea and I could see other people doing it for certain situations, but not me thank you very much lol.

I feel exactly the same way and what's really great, I didn't have to type all of it.

Dennis

wildbill · #24 08-10-2012, 05:23 AM

Ha ha - strong preferences for bass drum size. I just finished making my second 16" floor tom conversion, even though I most likely won't ever use it. Did it just for the practice.
Works OK, but doesn't sound too great because of the heads I've got on it though.

My bass drum preference is pretty solid too, but kind of the opposite of you guys.
I'll use a 20" bass drum or an 18" - and that's it.

20" is the perfect size for ergonomics, and if I want to play seriously. But 18's have just a touch more of that light and easy fun factor, and can pack a serious punch despite their smaller size.

wildbill · #25 08-10-2012, 05:36 AM

Also - this thread titled "The Bass Drum ELIMINATION thread...." can be taken a few different ways.

In my view, if you ELIMINATE the bass drum, the pedal goes too, and you're playing with three limbs - RH, LH and LF. (although the RF could play some other instrument).

If you take a 16" tom and place a kick pedal under it, it BECOMES a bass drum, rather than eliminating a bass drum.

That also brings up pitch and size. If you've got four drums - 6", 8", 10" and 12" toms, and play only those (with no traditional bass drum), the 12" will normally have the lowest pitch, and in context, will be heard as playing the role of 'bass', even if it's not played with a kick pedal.

Rambling - ha ha. But anyways, I'm content with the traditional bass drum/kick pedal combo, just so they're the right sizes. LOL

larryace · #26 08-10-2012, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by section8usmc

Lol! Oh Larry, not even and 18"? Really? Mine thumps pretty darn good. It is 1 ply (2 mm) thicker. I do love my 22" and I can't wait to get my 24", but I think some of the 18" and 20" out there today are really pretty good. Blasphemous. Haha!

I feel I have to work too hard on an 18" bass drum to get the volume I want. It's just easier with a bigger drum. But really, it's the frequencies, they don't hit me in the gut like a bigger drum does.

It's like the difference in engine sounds between a Harley and a Honda.

bigiainw · #27 08-10-2012, 02:23 PM

I hate carrying loads of gear (although I generally do). I'm so doing this!

tamadrm · #28 08-10-2012, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildbill

Also - this thread titled "The Bass Drum ELIMINATION thread...." can be taken a few different ways.

In my view, if you ELIMINATE the bass drum, the pedal goes too, and you're playing with three limbs - RH, LH and LF. (although the RF could play some other instrument).

If you take a 16" tom and place a kick pedal under it, it BECOMES a bass drum, rather than eliminating a bass drum.

That also brings up pitch and size. If you've got four drums - 6", 8", 10" and 12" toms, and play only those (with no traditional bass drum), the 12" will normally have the lowest pitch, and in context, will be heard as playing the role of 'bass', even if it's not played with a kick pedal.

Rambling - ha ha. But anyways, I'm content with the traditional bass drum/kick pedal combo, just so they're the right sizes. LOL

LOL.....maybe we should call it the " 16" Floor tom PROLIFERATION" thread.There are guys actually attempting to use 14" mounted,and floor toms as bass drums.I'm with Larry,I'll just hang on to my 22's thank you.In fact,I'm looking for a 24,and 26 in the near future.

I certainly don't begrudge anyone who likes smaller drums,its is after all,a matter of taste,and function.So I say....go as small as you like Bo,and my fellow drum brothers,I got your back.:)

Steve B

robyn64 · #29 08-10-2012, 04:21 PM

oh come on now guys how many times have we women said...it's not......wait maybe i better not say that here ;) LOL
be nice now

tamadrm · #30 08-10-2012, 04:31 PM

Were you going to say,it's not the size of the wave,but the motion of the ocean?:)

Steve B

robyn64 · #31 08-10-2012, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamadrm

Were you going to say,it's not the size of the wave,but the motion of the ocean?:)

Steve B

don't think i've heard that one (good one (: ) but yaeh pretty much what i was thinking, lol.

but aint it true.........if you do all the right stuff with your drums and you are a great drummer, they will sound great even at the smallest size or even bigger ???? lol

i'm actually ancious to see what bo comes up with on his project.

wildbill · #32 08-11-2012, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamadrm

LOL.....maybe we should call it the " 16" Floor tom PROLIFERATION" thread.There are guys actually attempting to use 14" mounted,and floor toms as bass drums.I'm with Larry,I'll just hang on to my 22's thank you.In fact,I'm looking for a 24,and 26 in the near future.

I certainly don't begrudge anyone who likes smaller drums,its is after all,a matter of taste,and function.So I say....go as small as you like Bo,and my fellow drum brothers,I got your back.:)

Steve B

Well, in this age of electronics and amplification, anything goes. Have you seen the size of some of the electronic bass drum pads? - miniscule, but still they can produce thunder.

Here's one example - this is the whole thing. No actual drum involved, you just run a cord to a module: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StealthKick/

I might feel a little funny using just that, unless it had a bass drum in front of it to hide behind. LOL.
You never know though. Use it a few times and you could get used to it.

Big drums were a necessity in an earlier time. Now they're just another choice.

I agree that a 14" tom used acoustically as a bass drum is kind of pushing it. But it could be just the right thing for a coffeehouse gig.
Slap a trigger on it, run it through a module and the right EQ and amp, and it might do for a stadium (except for looks - ha ha).

Bo Eder · #33 08-11-2012, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildbill

Well, in this age of electronics and amplification, anything goes. Have you seen the size of some of the electronic bass drum pads? - miniscule, but still they can produce thunder.

Here's one example - this is the whole thing. No actual drum involved, you just run a cord to a module: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StealthKick/

I might feel a little funny using just that, unless it had a bass drum in front of it to hide behind. LOL.
You never know though. Use it a few times and you could get used to it.

Big drums were a necessity in an earlier time. Now they're just another choice.

I agree that a 14" tom used acoustically as a bass drum is kind of pushing it. But it could be just the right thing for a coffeehouse gig.
Slap a trigger on it, run it through a module and the right EQ and amp, and it might do for a stadium (except for looks - ha ha).

I've done the electric route as well, back in the 80s when it was all new, and played professionally with them until just recently. The problem is, you get yourself these small pads to play, but it balances out with the amps and speakers you have to carry around. I'm not sure everyone understands that trade-off at first.

section8usmc · #34 08-11-2012, 05:11 AM

I just sold my electronic kit. I learned on it. Now I'm learning all over again. The spacing, height, and all of that, although I had the full size cymbal pads. There always seemed to be something missing. Some sort of disconnect. It was confirmed to me the first time I sat down behind a real kit. The ultra soft sounds you can get out of the real thing. I'm sure the newest pads are much better. The mesh heads felt really close. Pearl I think. Even so, I could never get the exact volume control, which means it was more forgiving, and basically made me a sloppy player. A lot of stuff i could do on the E kit, was no longer attainable. I wouldn't go back if I was paid to. That's why I am loving this kind of stuff. You can do so many cool things. I live music, and dabble in physics of all kinds among other things, and acoustic drums have really become a playground for my imagination. So Larry, Bo, and anyone else willing to try new stuff, you have my attention. I love this kind of thing.

wildbill · #35 08-11-2012, 05:18 AM

I like both acoustic and electronic stuff. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses.

If I absolutely had to pick one or the other though, it'd be acoustic.

Bo Eder · #36 08-11-2012, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wildbill

I like both acoustic and electronic stuff. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses.

If I absolutely had to pick one or the other though, it'd be acoustic.

I admit I still like both. But I had an epiphany when I was playing electronic stuff: if it'll never feel like the real thing, why must it even be drum-like? That's when, for almost four years, I almost exclusively played the Zendrum, and I loved it. Nothing really to break because it's your finger tips hitting pads on a body you wear like a guitar. The electronics started to make sense when I got away from it having to be a drum. I even relate to things like Octapads better too. But if I were to do it again, it'd be the Zendrum all the way, but towards the end of my Zendrum reign, I was getting frustrated because everyone seemed to forget that I also played acoustic drums too, and even the 127 levels of dynamics on your fingertips was getting a bit limiting too. So I walked away from it all. People sometimes don't understand acoustic drums, let alone some freaky electronic contraption.

section8usmc · #37 08-11-2012, 07:13 AM

That's what really gave me such an appreciation for acoustic drums. The understanding of them. The applied physics in a drum, and, the entire kit, and the interaction between us and the stick, and the drum. It really gave me a strong respect for really good drummers. Most people could learn some basics in no time. To be a very accomplished player though, that either comes with pure talent, which few are blessed with, or determination and hard friggin work. I realized all of this by learning about the instrument itself, in a truly in depth endeavor on my part. Stuff like you're talking about is just more frosting on the cake. The e kits serve a purpose, but even with all of the possibilities, I find the physical acoustic kit even more amazing.

wildbill · #38 08-11-2012, 02:13 PM

Finger drumming with electronics, whether it's with small pads, keys, or whatever is a whole 'nother skill that requires lots of time developing finger independence rather than limb independence.
I've tried both, but having started with acoustic drums, they feel more natural to me, and I'd rather invest what time I have further developing those.