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  #81  
Old 10-28-2014, 11:44 AM
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Reggae_Mangle Reggae_Mangle is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

I had never heard about Jim Gordon before this thread, quite enlightening.

When I clicked on it, I was thinking, "Woah, a thread about Commissioner Gordon from Batman".
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  #82  
Old 10-28-2014, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

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Originally Posted by Brian View Post
Despite the above, it was likely Jim's alcoholism (stemming from his father, hence the letter) that was the killer.
I am a psychologist and I believe you are mistaken. Paranoid schizophrenia is much more likely to explain the what happened. Alcohol and drugs didn't help (likely lowering his inhibitions) but it seems clear from the quotes in the article above that he had persecutory auditory hallucinations and delusions involving his mother.

IMHO your remarks about Chapman are also misguided. He almost surely suffered from a sexual delusion (de Clarembault syndrome or erotomania) directed at Jodi Foster. Many people with these delusions commit violent offenses. If anyone deserves an insanity defense (or at least diminished capacity), it is someone with well documented psychosis. The courts agreed in the case of Chapman, but unfortunately not with Gordon.

Let me also add that most people with mental illness are no more dangerous than the rest of society.
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  #83  
Old 10-28-2014, 09:02 PM
RIneuron RIneuron is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

One additional thought: At least he is now in the part of the CA penal system with some services for the mentally ill.
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  #84  
Old 10-28-2014, 11:36 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

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Originally Posted by RIneuron View Post
One additional thought: At least he is now in the part of the CA penal system with some services for the mentally ill.
RI - on that note, he obviously has had many, many years of re-hab. Jim was due for parole many many years ago. Given your expertise, do you not think his time has come to be released, or considered for release? It's quite a shame.
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  #85  
Old 10-29-2014, 04:07 AM
RIneuron RIneuron is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
RI - on that note, he obviously has had many, many years of re-hab. Jim was due for parole many many years ago. Given your expertise, do you not think his time has come to be released, or considered for release? It's quite a shame.
Hard to say whether he is a threat to the public without more info. Clearly this is a tragic waste of a huge talent.

The point I was trying to make was that it appears he got a raw deal from the criminal justice system given his obvious mental illness. Not to minimize his crime, which was horrible. But from the facts available publically, it does not appear he was responsible for his actions. There is still a lot of intolerance and lack of empathy for people with brain diseases, so this thread set me off.

Also, sorry Brian if I misattributed some statements to you. Your posts have been very interesting.
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  #86  
Old 10-29-2014, 08:47 AM
Brian Brian is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIneuron View Post
I am a psychologist and I believe you are mistaken. Paranoid schizophrenia is much more likely to explain the what happened. Alcohol and drugs didn't help (likely lowering his inhibitions) but it seems clear from the quotes in the article above that he had persecutory auditory hallucinations and delusions involving his mother.

IMHO your remarks about Chapman are also misguided. He almost surely suffered from a sexual delusion (de Clarembault syndrome or erotomania) directed at Jodi Foster. Many people with these delusions commit violent offenses. If anyone deserves an insanity defense (or at least diminished capacity), it is someone with well documented psychosis. The courts agreed in the case of Chapman, but unfortunately not with Gordon.

Let me also add that most people with mental illness are no more dangerous than the rest of society.
You did mix-up myself and JohnW for the Chapman remarks. No problem. Thanks for the comments, it's interesting hearing from someone with a background in psychology.

I try to remember Jim Gordon for his contributions to music, rather than personal life tragedy.

As to the alcoholism, alcohol was indeed his drug of choice for many years after he attempted suicide and also made a "come-back" in 1977-1978.
I do believe that the effects of drinking (he had serious health concerns, doctors warned him his liver would fail) and also withdrawing can have a major kindling effect for the delusions and hallucinations to occur, loss of memory etc. and also perhaps vice-versa with self-medicating. Chicken or egg? He was largely drinking himself to death. I'm not a doctor and don't claim to be an expert, but I am not unfamiliar with the topic.

Jim has been kept imprisoned, more or less, for refusing to take anti-psychotic medications and not staying "on-track".

Last edited by Brian; 10-29-2014 at 09:37 AM.
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  #87  
Old 10-29-2014, 07:00 PM
RIneuron RIneuron is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian View Post
You did mix-up myself and JohnW for the Chapman remarks. No problem.

I try to remember Jim Gordon for his contributions to music, rather than personal life tragedy.

As to the alcoholism, alcohol was indeed his drug of choice for many years after he attempted suicide and also made a "come-back" in 1977-1978.
I do believe that the effects of drinking (he had serious health concerns, doctors warned him his liver would fail) and also withdrawing can have a major kindling effect for the delusions and hallucinations to occur, loss of memory etc. and also perhaps vice-versa with self-medicating. Chicken or egg? He was largely drinking himself to death. I'm not a doctor and don't claim to be an expert, but I am not unfamiliar with the topic.

Jim has been kept imprisoned, more or less, for refusing to take anti-psychotic medications and not staying "on-track".
Sorry again about the mixup. I was unaware of this information. The med non-compliance is unfortunate but not uncommon with some disorders.
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  #88  
Old 10-29-2014, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Hmm, I was under the impression that Jim was taking his meds no problem. It was just an impression, not a fact.
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  #89  
Old 10-29-2014, 07:35 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

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Hmm, I was under the impression that Jim was taking his meds no problem. It was just an impression, not a fact.
Yeah, he's not complying with the court's medical orders

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...arole-20130517

Last edited by Brian; 10-29-2014 at 07:46 PM.
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  #90  
Old 11-04-2014, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

this was a great group, occasional shots of Jim. Even George is up there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4DbsNsK3jY
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  #91  
Old 11-05-2014, 09:28 PM
Brian Brian is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
this was a great group, occasional shots of Jim. Even George is up there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4DbsNsK3jY
Yeah, great line-up! Impeccable drumming, Carl Radle is excellent as well. 22:00 is the pinnacle of groove and locking-in

Jim Gordon, Jeff Porcaro, and Vinnie Colaiuta all had/had very similar sitting positions I have noticed...they are three of the coolest looking drummers ever to me. Hal Blaine also sat behind the kit rather low, with the huge rack-tom setup.

Last edited by Brian; 11-05-2014 at 09:41 PM.
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  #92  
Old 01-08-2015, 03:56 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Here's an article that gives more insight to Jim Gordon:

http://carponline.proboards.com/thre...mer-jim-gordon

Only Jim could make this thing feel this good for this long. Live. Great pics too if you have a free 18 minutes. Jim does a really pleasing drum solo around after the 13 minute mark. Pure Jim. I WISH it was video, OMG. I can only imagine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USYcoIZUU8o
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  #93  
Old 01-08-2015, 06:08 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

yes cool pics.
check out the line-up for the 'Midwest Rock Festival' on the poster at 0:20.
1971 was a great year in music.
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  #94  
Old 01-09-2015, 01:45 AM
gf2564 gf2564 is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryace View Post
Here's an article that gives more insight to Jim Gordon:

http://carponline.proboards.com/thre...mer-jim-gordon

Only Jim could make this thing feel this good for this long. Live. Great pics too if you have a free 18 minutes. Jim does a really pleasing drum solo around after the 13 minute mark. Pure Jim. I WISH it was video, OMG. I can only imagine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USYcoIZUU8o
Thanks for the link Larry! Very interesting, albeit tragic/sad, read! I was familiar with his work but did not know of all of the personal struggles and issues.
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  #95  
Old 01-09-2015, 02:06 AM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
yes cool pics.
check out the line-up for the 'Midwest Rock Festival' on the poster at 0:20.
1971 was a great year in music.
1971 was a good year. It would cost about 100,000 USD to see all the people on that roster. (if you could) There's a really cool pic of Jimi Hendrix in there somewhere looking very aggressive onstage as compared to Delany who looks kind of intimidated by Jimi lol.

Jim Gordon makes the songs he plays on... feel so good... I don't think he gets enough credit. You can't put a price on feel like that.
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  #96  
Old 01-21-2015, 04:00 PM
twinesplitter twinesplitter is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

The Med non-compliance may very well be another excuse for keeping a loyal well paying tenant.

Corrections have made millions of dollars off Gordon already, it's just too easy to keep him his entire life. Are his friends and was it his sister that are still trying desperately to get him a reprieve.

I haven't kept up, as I was so peed-off about his situation in 2000 that I could only sigh.

Similar to the guys in the mid 80's that were caught with 2 lbs. of Home-grown that was pretty much worthless, are now working on the 2nd 25 Years of their sentence when they were given 50 years.

I believe Corrections has never entertained releasing Gordon under any type of program, the money from his incarceration is too easy.

Remember, in the 80's there was no Private Corrections Lobby. Now the Private Corrections Lobby is in 4th place right behind the NRA, Big Oil, and Big Pharma.
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  #97  
Old 01-23-2015, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

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Jim Gordon makes the songs he plays on... feel so good... I don't think he gets enough credit. You can't put a price on feel like that.
Yeah, you are right. No one sounded like him, or had those particular unique feels and musical sensibilities. He was and is a different drummer.

And his drums, cymbals, tuning, etc. He sounded amazing.

I really do enjoy trying to play like him (among a few others), because it's made me a different and more rounded drummer.
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  #98  
Old 01-28-2015, 09:14 AM
Brian Brian is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Great groove again w/ Johnny Rivers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbv8MtpiZY0
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  #99  
Old 02-02-2015, 01:54 AM
Bonzodownunder Bonzodownunder is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Anyone know what model &color his Camco's were?,
& cymbals heads&sticks he used with Joe Cocker?.
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  #100  
Old 02-02-2015, 05:26 AM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Jim used mostly older Zildjian K's and he had the natural coloured Camco's, sort of a walnut colour, but they were maple. Not sure, I think thats what is referred to as the 'Oaklawn' years model/kit. I'm always amazed that same drums are everywhere he played through the 70's.

can see them well on this show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWGa9TSIcfA
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  #101  
Old 02-02-2015, 06:16 AM
Brian Brian is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

A drummer who bought some of Jim Gordons cymbals back in the 80's, posted about it on another forum and rang off some of Jim's go-to cymbals. Many of them were K's, but some were A's. Jim Gordon also had a few Zildjian china and swisher type cymbals, but I'm not sure he used those with Mad Dogs. He did play them with Zappa, a year later.

From what I understand he played a 20" K ride and 18" K crash for that tour.
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Last edited by Brian; 02-02-2015 at 06:41 AM.
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  #102  
Old 02-08-2015, 02:38 AM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

There's a whole bunch of videos from 1978 with Jackson Browne at a BBC concert. You can catch glimpses of Jim at work. The rest of the time geez that guy plays just wonderful accompaniment. That show sounds so much like the records Jackson did, and it's just wonderful music from that era.

A highlight for me was watching David Lindley sing the high part in Load Out/Stay

Here's one vid to get you started, more on the side, but not all. You might have to look around a little for all the songs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I11t5mj9FOk
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  #103  
Old 02-08-2015, 07:00 AM
Brian Brian is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Burton Cummings in 1977 and seemingly perfect drumming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzbCMNnpbLs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ftkt8-RPTY
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  #104  
Old 03-11-2015, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

In the interest of bringing to light as many tracks as this guy has been on, here's another:

"Apache", by the Classic Bongo Band. You've heard this before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-Z6wm6TMQ

Love the snare sound on this track.
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  #105  
Old 04-10-2015, 07:40 PM
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This is a decent sounding group of Zappa bootlegs. Be-bop Tango from Father Oblivion at 42:00 goes into a big solo. What a damn drummer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh9pvSQ4-TM
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  #106  
Old 05-11-2015, 07:39 AM
Bonzodownunder Bonzodownunder is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Anyone know what size were his Camcos used on the 'Mad Dogs and Englismen" tour? &cymbals heads&sticks?.
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  #107  
Old 05-11-2015, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Bonzodownunder View Post
Anyone know what size were his Camcos used on the 'Mad Dogs and Englismen" tour? &cymbals heads&sticks?.
I believe he was playing 12-13-16-24 camcos. Not sure the depth. His cymbals were old (Turkish?) Ks from what I remember : 20" K light ride. 18" K crash and 14" K hats.
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  #108  
Old 05-19-2015, 02:16 AM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

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Originally Posted by RIneuron View Post
I am a psychologist and I believe you are mistaken. Paranoid schizophrenia is much more likely to explain the what happened. Alcohol and drugs didn't help (likely lowering his inhibitions) but it seems clear from the quotes in the article above that he had persecutory auditory hallucinations and delusions involving his mother.

IMHO your remarks about Chapman are also misguided. He almost surely suffered from a sexual delusion (de Clarembault syndrome or erotomania) directed at Jodi Foster. Many people with these delusions commit violent offenses. If anyone deserves an insanity defense (or at least diminished capacity), it is someone with well documented psychosis. The courts agreed in the case of Chapman, but unfortunately not with Gordon.

Let me also add that most people with mental illness are no more dangerous than the rest of society.
I just happened to look back at this thread and you seem to be mixing up Mark David Chapman with John Hinkley.

This is alluding to a comment I made about Mark David Chapman, that "his name evokes anger, rather than pity or tragedy". Later on I responded to 8Mile, who mentioned that he had studied abnormal psychology in college and had a different perspective on serious mental illness: "I don't feel anger any more at Mark Chapman, though I still I believe it was a highly selfish act. But at the time, I saw him only as a person trying to get into the limelight without any merit. I didn't look at the mental illness associated with it."

Fortunately, his parole board has denied repeated requests by him to be released. I don't think Jim wants to be released, but could be wrong.
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  #109  
Old 05-21-2015, 05:43 PM
Dave_Markland Dave_Markland is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

With a little assistance from the recommendations on this forum, I recently wrote up a blog piece with some Jim Gordon transcriptions. I hope you all enjoy them: www.vancouverdrummer.blogspot.com
And thank you for the inspiration.
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  #110  
Old 06-29-2015, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

On Bo Eders recent thread his Soundcloud had a nice version to 'Classical Gas'. I had never noticed the drumming in it before. Went to the original and with a little research to find who it was..... Jim. It's really quite explosive in parts, in what really is a classical piece.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mREi_Bb85Sk

While listening on YouTube also came across Glen Campbells version of ' Wichita Lineman" on the sidebar....another soft song I like. Hmmm, very nice brush work on there too, stuff that I really never noticed. And who was the drummer?....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qoymGCDYzU
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  #111  
Old 06-30-2015, 01:15 AM
Brian Brian is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
On Bo Eders recent thread his Soundcloud had a nice version to 'Classical Gas'. I had never noticed the drumming in it before. Went to the original and with a little research to find who it was..... Jim. It's really quite explosive in parts, in what really is a classical piece.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mREi_Bb85Sk

While listening on YouTube also came across Glen Campbells version of ' Wichita Lineman" on the sidebar....another soft song I like. Hmmm, very nice brush work on there too, stuff that I really never noticed. And who was the drummer?....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qoymGCDYzU
Those are great...also Tom Waits Heart of Saturday Night has some really fine, musical drumming...brush work and all. It took me by surprise a little.
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  #112  
Old 06-30-2015, 04:04 PM
Brian Brian is offline
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The Everly Brothers "Kiss Your Man Goodbye"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfoVV8GAxqQ
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  #113  
Old 07-02-2015, 06:53 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Great thread guys. I'm a guitarist who plays (a little) drums. I knew about Jim Gordon very well from his high-profile rock gigs back in the day, but didn't realize how busy a session musician he really was, he played on tons of stuff.

I worked with Bonnie Bramlett for awhile in the late 70s, she wouldn't talk about Jim, the murder freaked her out so much. She did mention that he treated Rita Coolidge badly... I'd guess after all of what happened Rita is lucky to be still around. It's a real tragedy, he was such a highly gifted musician. It's a shame he couldn't get some kind of daytime monitored release program so he could get out and play a little.
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  #114  
Old 07-02-2015, 06:56 PM
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Great thread guys. I'm a guitarist who plays (a little) drums. I knew about Jim Gordon very well from his high-profile rock gigs back in the day, but didn't realize how busy a session musician he really was, he played on tons of stuff.

I worked with Bonnie Bramlett for awhile in the late 70s, she wouldn't talk about Jim, the murder freaked her out so much. She did mention that he treated Rita Coolidge badly... I'd guess after all of what happened Rita is lucky to be still around. It's a real tragedy, he was such a highly gifted musician. It's a shame he couldn't get some kind of daytime monitored release program so he could get out and play a little.
This is my favorite thread here. I understand that the (is it called the coda?) end part of Layla, whom Jim is credited for....he actually lifted that from Rita. She is the real inventor of that piano part.

Much respect for being close to all that.
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  #115  
Old 07-02-2015, 07:51 PM
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I've heard different things about the coda in Layla. One of the guys in Bonnie's band said that the melody of it was actually inspired by something Duane Allman played on slide guitar.
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  #116  
Old 08-04-2015, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Does anyone know who Jim used as drum techs at any point in his career? It would be absolutely amazing to pick their brains about his gear, not to mention being able to watch him play every night! Similar to Andy Newmark's studio experience, these guys would certainly have picked up a deep understanding of his techniques and nuances.

Just a thought.
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  #117  
Old 08-04-2015, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

The gear in many pics , at least post 1969, seems to be the same, no matter what the venue - his maple Camco's, including a maple snare and some Zildjian K's or A's. There are a few studio shots I've seen where a small Rogers tom is alongside the Camco's. No doubt though with his touch he'd sound great on any set.

In Clapton's autobio, the coda on Layla came to be when other members came back into the studio from a break, and Jim was there playing the part on piano by himself. Clapton asked to lift it right on to the end, which they as yet had no ending for. It is certainly money in the bank for Jim, that he will likely never see.
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  #118  
Old 08-04-2015, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

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Originally Posted by opentune View Post
In Clapton's autobio, the coda on Layla came to be when other members came back into the studio from a break, and Jim was there playing the part on piano by himself. Clapton asked to lift it right on to the end, which they as yet had no ending for. It is certainly money in the bank for Jim, that he will likely never see.
The other wrinkle I've heard to this story is that he stole the melody from his then-girlfriend Rita Coolidge.

Regardless, I also read that Clapton has meticulously seen to it that Gordon receives every penny paid for his share of the writing credit.

Edit: Oops, just noticed the Rita Coolidge thing was already mentioned above. I didn't see it until after I posted. Sorry.

Last edited by 8Mile; 08-04-2015 at 08:20 PM. Reason: addendum to the Rita Coolidge comment
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  #119  
Old 08-05-2015, 01:02 AM
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

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Originally Posted by 8Mile View Post
The other wrinkle I've heard to this story is that he stole the melody from his then-girlfriend Rita Coolidge.

Regardless, I also read that Clapton has meticulously seen to it that Gordon receives every penny paid for his share of the writing credit.

Edit: Oops, just noticed the Rita Coolidge thing was already mentioned above. I didn't see it until after I posted. Sorry.
True dat, but it's not as known as it should be IMO. It bears repeating. I thought for a long time Jim composed that coda but he didn't. Rita should be given the credit...and at least half the money if we're being fair. Jim does deserve some dough, if it wasn't for him, it would likely be lost to time. But really Rita created the beauty.
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Old 08-05-2015, 05:04 AM
Brian Brian is offline
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Default Re: Jim Gordon

Quote:
Originally Posted by opentune View Post
The gear in many pics , at least post 1969, seems to be the same, no matter what the venue - his maple Camco's, including a maple snare and some Zildjian K's or A's. There are a few studio shots I've seen where a small Rogers tom is alongside the Camco's. No doubt though with his touch he'd sound great on any set.

In Clapton's autobio, the coda on Layla came to be when other members came back into the studio from a break, and Jim was there playing the part on piano by himself. Clapton asked to lift it right on to the end, which they as yet had no ending for. It is certainly money in the bank for Jim, that he will likely never see.
I've seen him playing drums other than his Camcos in different images and videos, too. I heard that in the studio, he would use a variety of drums and cymbals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7FJ9Bppalo

Also I have found out that if anyone wants to get close to the Jim Gordon ride sound he so famously had, the Zildjian A Deep Ride (discontinued) is a really close match.
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